Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery

Hoichi, it appears to have come down to this child's suffering because the parents are on a guilt trip......
 
Tousi said:
Hoichi, it appears to have come down to this child's suffering because the parents are on a guilt trip......
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If the child.is nothng but a warm corpse, what suffering is the corspe actually enduring?
One in.hand some argue, shes just some.corpse, then in the other its argued the corspe is suffering..

Fine.

So i ask what evedence do we have the parents are acting out of only and soley gult rather then.any religious conviction?

Have they said as much?

Why assume they are being governed and driven soley by gult?
And even if they were
So?

Its their daughter, their wishes should.be respected, regardless if you or i agree with them in this case or not
 
Tousi said:
Hoichi, it appears to have come down to this child's suffering because the parents are on a guilt trip......
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The child is not suffering because she has no brain activity and has been dead for over two years now.
 
hoichi said:
If the child.is nothng but a warm corpse, what suffering is the corspe actually enduring?
One in.hand some argue, shes just some.corpse, then in the other its argued the corspe is suffering..

Fine.

So i ask what evedence do we have the parents are acting out of only and soley gult rather then.any religious conviction?

Have they said as much?

Why assume they are being governed and driven soley by gult?
And even if they were
So?

Its their daughter, their wishes should.be respected, regardless if you or i agree with them in this case or not
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How do you know they are acting out of religious beliefs or convictions? If the parents want to continue to pay to keep their dead daughter as a "warm corpse" than so be it, but if the public is paying to do it, than it needs to stop. She has failed all attempts to take her off the respirator which is one of the tests they do to prove brain death and since she has no brain activity and has had none for over two years, she is not going to get better any time soon or ever for that matter.
 
seb said:
The child is not suffering because she has no brain activity and has been dead for over two years now.
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Then whats the issue?

Its their daughter, their wishes should be respected.

I have a question though.

Has there ever been ever someone declared braindead who ever against the new.religion.of declared science woke up.
Ever?

How is brain dead being meaured in regards to this girl?
Who is doing the measuring?
In whos interests are they measuring?
 
It's probably about the money... in my recent link:

Winkfield has been able to use Jahi’s insurance to provide for her medical care but was forced to sell her house and deplete her mother’s savings throughout the entire costly process, although legal services remained free.
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It sounds like the family is running out of money taking care of a brain dead body and also public is likely paying for the legal services.
 
seb said:
How do you know they are acting out of religious beliefs or convictions? If the parents want to continue to pay to keep their dead daughter as a "warm corpse" than so be it, but if the public is paying to do it, than it needs to stop. She has failed all attempts to take her off the respirator which is one of the tests they do to prove brain death and since she has no brain activity and has had none for over two years, she is not going to get better any time soon or ever for that matter.
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Well since your using the public purse as a measure for the worth of a human life.
Im curious

Whats the price.tag for the public purse a human life is worth?

If your going to use loot as a measure..
Its only fair and sencere to actually use numbers as in monetary value in your arguments.
Dont be vague now.
The public purse is at stake...
Give me a number



I dont know if they are acting out of religious conviction. Im giving them the benifet of the doubt.
Religious.conviction or guilt.
Its their daughter.
Their wishes should be respected.

If your just arguing some.nameless accountent gets to decide here due to the public purse.

Your some cold bones..
 
hoichi said:
I have a question though.

Has there ever been ever someone declared braindead who ever against the new.religion.of declared science woke up.
Ever?
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Yes a few... But for the majority their brain death did not last long hours, days, weeks, rarely a month... This has been going on for much longer... Yet, when is a life no longer worth fighting... A silly argument if you ask me... The parents want to keep fighting why stop them? On this I agree with you, as a parent who lost a child I can understand their desire to fight... I doubt it is about guilt that makes them fight... Rather parental love, hope, and faith... I am sadly glad there was no question that my daughter was gone and I never had to question this... For this must be terrible on the parents.
An article that skims a few people and a little on this subject... http://time.com/1596/viewpoint-why-brain-death-isnt-an-on-off-switch/

And as to your question...
http://www.notdeadyet.org/2008/03/brain-dead-man-comes-alive-miracle.html



Sent from my SM-G530T1 using AllDeaf App mobile app
 
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hoichi said:
Then whats the issue?


Has there ever been ever someone declared braindead who ever against the new.religion.of declared science woke up.
Ever?

How is brain dead being meaured in regards to this girl?
Who is doing the measuring?
In whos interests are they measuring?
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No one has ever woke up after being given the series of medical tests this girl has, ever!

Some people who have been declared brain dead and woke up were never given the tests Jahi was and were later found to be in a coma or vegetative state. None have been dead for two years though.

Here is the tests that Jahi was given to determine whether she was alive or in fact brain dead: There are strict criteria for brain death and these criteria are carefully followed before a patient becomes an organ donor or their ventilator is unplugged. They must be in a coma with no brain stem or pupillary reflexes. They do not breathe on their own when taken off their ventilator, and an electroencephalogram (EEG) records a complete absence of brain activity. Although most states only require the diagnosis of one physician, the patient's family can always ask for a second opinion. These test have been administered to Jahi on more that one occasion and all have come to the same conclusions and that is that she is in fact brain dead.

These test have been administered by neurologists.
 
hoichi said:
Well since your using the public purse as a measure for the worth of a human life.
Im curious

Whats the price.tag for the public purse a human life is worth?
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There is no price for this human life, because it ended two years ago when her brain stopped functioning and without the machines, she would be dead. I'm not cold, just being a realist.
 
Reba said:
From what I've read, it wasn't the surgery that caused her brain death. The surgery went fine. It was her faulty aftercare performed by her family, who didn't follow the doctor's instructions.
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"The surgery, which occurred December 9, initially appeared to have gone well, said Sandy Chatman, Jahi's grandmother who is herself a nurse and saw the girl in the recovery room.

"She was alert and talking, and she was asking for a Popsicle because she said her throat hurt," Chatman said.

But Jahi was then moved to the intensive-care unit, and her relatives were denied access to the eighth-grader for 30 minutes; when they finally were allowed to see her, they knew something was wrong. "Upon entry, they saw that there was way too much blood," Chatman said.

"We kept asking, 'Is this normal?'" Sealey said. "Some nurses said, 'I don't know,' and some said, 'Yes.' There was a lot of uncertainty and a lack of urgency."

Sealey said that when Chatman noticed that her granddaughter's oxygen levels were dangerously low, she called for help.

But Jahi went into cardiac arrest. The medical staff performed chest compressions to revive her and gave her clotting medications, but nothing worked.

On Tuesday, a CT scan revealed that two-thirds of Jahi's brain was swollen.

Sealey said that Jahi's brain had been deprived of oxygen. "Now she is 100% brain damaged," he said. "Medically dead."

CNN could not independently confirm Sealey's account.

When asked about the case, hospital spokeswoman Melinda Krigel cited privacy laws"

This was taken from the OP link and the girl was never in the care of her parents according to this link. So it doesn't look like the parents did anything to cause the girl to become brain dead . The whole thing is very tragic .
 
seb said:
No one has ever woke up after being given the series of medical tests this girl has, ever!

Some people who have been declared brain dead and woke up were never given the tests Jahi was and were later found to be in a coma or vegetative state. None have been dead for two years though.

Here is the tests that Jahi was given to determine whether she was alive or in fact brain dead: There are strict criteria for brain death and these criteria are carefully followed before a patient becomes an organ donor or their ventilator is unplugged. They must be in a coma with no brain stem or pupillary reflexes. They do not breathe on their own when taken off their ventilator, and an electroencephalogram (EEG) records a complete absence of brain activity. Although most states only require the diagnosis of one physician, the patient's family can always ask for a second opinion. These test have been administered to Jahi on more that one occasion and all have come to the same conclusions and that is that she is in fact brain dead.

These test have been administered by neurologists.
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Fair enough.
But what does it matter to you.
 
seb said:
There is no price for this human life, because it ended two years ago when her brain stopped functioning and without the machines, she would be dead. I'm not cold, just being a realist.
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So you are arguing those who cannot breath or function on their own with out the aid of machines are no longer human?

Clearly you are putting a price on it, you keep bringing up the public purse.


Interesting.

Here is a thought experement for you.

If an individual would harm this "warm corspe",be it assult or sexual, would the law intervene and function protecting this "warm corspe" as a buman bieng, or would the law instead be used such as desecration of a dead body, or what ever, should this "warm corspe" have the same legel protection as a living human being or not?


You are.bieng very difinitive where you are drawing the line on who is a human and who is not.

That is rather a.dangerous slope to be on
 
hoichi said:
So you are arguing those who cannot breath or function on their own with out the aid of machines are no longer human?

Clearly you are putting a price on it, you keep bringing up the public purse.


Interesting.

Here is a thought experement for you.

If an individual would harm this "warm corspe",be it assult or sexual, would the law intervene and function protecting this "warm corspe" as a buman bieng, or would the law instead be used such as desecration of a dead body, or what ever, should this "warm corspe" have the same legel protection as a living human being or not?


You are.bieng very difinitive where you are drawing the line on who is a human and who is not.

That is rather a.dangerous slope to be on
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No, they're not not human. But they're humans functioning only with machines. There is no quality of life left for them. Look at Bobbi Kristina who was left on machines for 6 months until she finally passed. Look at Terri Schiavo who was left on machines for years (I think 10+) until a judge finally ruled that the plug could be pulled. These are just two examples - there's hundreds (thousands) out there in similar situations. It sounds inhumane, but without brain function, that person lying in a bed doesn't have any quality of life, nor does the family who is caring for these individuals.
 
hoichi said:
So you are arguing those who cannot breath or function on their own with out the aid of machines are no longer human?

NO! I am saying that using the protocol for brain death, if they can't function on the tests given without the aid of the machines, then they are clinically dead!

Clearly you are putting a price on it, you keep bringing up the public purse.

What I'm saying is that if the family can't pay to keep their dead daughter "alive" the public and the insurance companies shouldn't be paying for it.


Interesting.

Here is a thought experement for you.

If an individual would harm this "warm corspe",be it assult or sexual, would the law intervene and function protecting this "warm corspe" as a buman bieng, or would the law instead be used such as desecration of a dead body, or what ever, should this "warm corspe" have the same legel protection as a living human being or not?

No, I'm sure you would be charged with necrophilia. The family could probably sue you, but Jahi as a dead person couldn't sue.


You are.bieng very difinitive where you are drawing the line on who is a human and who is not.

Once you are not living you are no longer a human being. The definition of human being: a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance. Since Jahi can no longer do any of these things she is no longer a human being, but a dead corpse.

That is rather a.dangerous slope to be on
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No, I don't think so. It's just taking a realistic approach to a terribly sad story.
 
AlleyCat said:
No, they're not not human. But they're humans functioning only with machines. There is no quality of life left for them. Look at Bobbi Kristina who was left on machines for 6 months until she finally passed. Look at Terri Schiavo who was left on machines for years (I think 10+) until a judge finally ruled that the plug could be pulled. These are just two examples - there's hundreds (thousands) out there in similar situations. It sounds inhumane, but without brain function, that person lying in a bed doesn't have any quality of life, nor does the family who is caring for these individuals.
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So they are not human.

Are.severly mentaly retarded, those unable to function on their own without the aid of machines or others also not human?

Is the measure of a human the ability to function on ones own independently of machines or out side aid?

If this girl, this nothing but a warm corpse was.assulted either sexually (it has happened.to tobthose inbrain.dead comas.before), would the law intervene as such, seeing her as a human, with all the legel protection that entails or would the law instead be used perhaps for the fsr lesser charges and.crimes such as desecration of a body..?

I ask again

Is the measure of a human the ability to function on ones own without the aid of machines or others?
 
seb said:
No, I don't think so. It's just taking a realistic approach to a terribly sad story.
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The docs did this, according to the op....so yes indeed they should be paying for this..
Or do they get a free pass in ruining others lives?

As for the charges re my question.

Depending on where you are, given former.cases, the chsrges would be from anywhere to.full rape oe.child molestation to none at all.

It wouldnt be necrophelia..

In my serches anyway...

"You stated.....
"
"The definition of human being: a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens, distinguished from other animals by superior mental development, power of articulate speech, and upright stance. Since Jahi can no longer do any of these things she is no longer a human being, but a dead corpse."

So most severly retarded, mentally challanged are not human by this definition, we had a few in Deaf school, who would where hocky helmets, as in be put in them, by others, they where unable to feed themselves, move much besides ..as all they coukd do was their head against the wall, and had no mental facaulty as to who they where or what they where.if it was not for other peoples intervention, they would not survive.....i spent much time with them....in detention....they where usually across the hall, when id skip...and i knew they wouldnt give me up..."-)..often the safest spot to be was with those kids....hows the saying go.......lose signs, sink crimes....mmmmmm...
.i gaurantee you they have the same protection under the law as those who can speak, move and are aware...under the law they are protected as human. Not as animals, or inanimate objects or property...they are by defnition human. as to your definition neither are Deaf who are not oral human ..nor those in a wheel chair....

Do you care to reformulate your decleration as to who is a human and who is not.?.

Do you lack the situtational awarness as to where you are, as in allDeaf?
 
seb said:
I just think it's time to end it and go on with their lives. Life is for the living and unfortunately, Jahi is not among them.
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Is this for you to declare.

Why not respect the families wishes ...should they not be the ones.to.deciide?
 
AlleyCat said:
No, they're not not human. But they're humans functioning only with machines. There is no quality of life left for them. Look at Bobbi Kristina who was left on machines for 6 months until she finally passed. Look at Terri Schiavo who was left on machines for years (I think 10+) until a judge finally ruled that the plug could be pulled. These are just two examples - there's hundreds (thousands) out there in similar situations. It sounds inhumane, but without brain function, that person lying in a bed doesn't have any quality of life, nor does the family who is caring for these individuals.
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Terri Schiavo did not die from "pulling the plug." She was not on any life support equipment such as a ventilator. She was breathing on her own. She was diagnosed as brain damaged, not brain dead. She died two weeks after having her feeding tube removed. She was not in the same condition as this girl is.
 
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