Early Implantation

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I am not being defensive. I am tired of you derailing every valuable discussion with your unneccessary and personal asumptions. I don't give fiddle whether Rick or Harry or Jack is a member of AGB or IRA of KKK or if he is a skinehad.

His thread is about early implantation and if you wish to address this issue you can do it without personal and unproven accusations.
And I will reply to any thread as I see relevant. I am entitled to it.

Fuzzy

Perhaps you don't care, but others apparently do. And his reference to early implantation was cited as a publication of the A.G. Bell Association. He opened the door. And if you beleive that oralist attitudes are not related to early implantation, your understanding of the topic is sadly deficient.
 
Perhaps you don't care, but others apparently do. And his reference to early implantation was cited as a publication of the A.G. Bell Association. He opened the door. And if you beleive that oralist attitudes are not related to early implantation, your understanding of the topic is sadly deficient.

Then reffer to the article, voice your opinion about THE ARTICLE OBJECTIVITY - but leave these unneccessary personal comments to yourself.


Fuzzy
 
Then reffer to the article, voice your opinion about THE ARTICLE OBJECTIVITY - but leave these unneccessary personal comments to yourself.


Fuzzy

When did you become a moderator? And I was referring to the article's objectivity, and have stated that it is from a biased source.
 
When did you become a moderator? And I was referring to the article's objectivity, and have stated that it is from a biased source.


Then you may appropriately state "Bell is biased source" - and any personal comments about posters keep to yourself.

Fuzzy
 
Non-CI implanted chidlren acquire and develop langauge at the same rate as their hearing peers if they are provided with the appropriate models. How do you answer the studies that show that CI implanted children test out most closely to hearing peers when provided an environment that includes speech and sign?

We are talking about spoken languge. Please show me a study that shows that non-implanted deaf children developed spoken language at the same rate as their hearing peers.

What study is that you are refering to. You are very good at saying "Study shows this" or a "study shows that" but interestingly you never cite the study.
 
Perhaps you don't care, but others apparently do. And his reference to early implantation was cited as a publication of the A.G. Bell Association. He opened the door. And if you beleive that oralist attitudes are not related to early implantation, your understanding of the topic is sadly deficient.

The article was about the results of early childhood implantation being comparable to those of hearing peers in the development of spoken language.

The article was written by individuals, not by the AGBell organization. The article was published in one of their publications. You were the person who introduced the red herring of the views of Alexander Graham Bell that was quickly seized upon by your sycophants in an attempt to derail any discussion about the merits of the article and its usefulness to parents considering the cochlear implant for their child.

But that is your modus operandi because you have no valid arguments against cochlear implants for children. The fact is that you are part of a rapidly shriking part of the Deaf Community who oppose cochlear implants for children. You have lost your fight because parents, both hearing and deaf, in ever increasing numbers are choosing the cochlear implant for their children and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it! You have lost because the parents have seen the countless thosuands of cochlear implanted kids like Cloggy's Lotte and my daughter who are living and loving examples of the tremendous impact that a cochlear implant can have upon someone's life. You have lost because you and your crowd can never ever answer the fundamental question of "What is wrong about being able to hear and to speak?"

And with that, I am signing off, enjoying knowing you have lost but that the children and their parents have won and how much that irks you and finally, asking the moderator to close this thread.

Ta ta
 
And infant assessments are not always reliable.
Exactly......ALL parents went through their dhh kid doing the "now I hear you now, I don't thing" Even severe-profounders!
Audiofuzzy,I'm more questioning the presumption that getting implanted ASAP is going to give them any sort of edge. Remember until recently a lot of even severe-profounders didn't get aids until we were toddlers. I'm not saying wait til the kid is a toddler.......just saying that the "implant ASAP" thinking almost seems to be like the faction that HAS to get their kids in the right nursery school, or they won't ever go to Harvard.
Is there an appreciable difference between kids who are implanted within six months of dx, vs kids who were implanted post one year old?
Oh, and Rick how do we know that the study isn't biased? You can prove almost ANYTHING through studies. If a completly neutral review found that implanted oral kids were doing on par with hearing kids, I'd be impressed. But the thing is, I bet twenty years ago the experts could have produced simalir data.
Oh and rick, you're WRONG about the Deaf culture dying. Yes, there are some dhh folks who feel totally comfortable in hearing society and don't need Sign or anything..........but there have ALWAYS been people like that. It's been pretty much a rule of thumb that most "oral" kids do eventually pick up ASL as a second language!
 
Oh and rick, I think you're counting your chickens before they've hatched. There are a lot of kids of your daughter's generation who have come here and said that they wish they'd learned Sign etc while growing up.
Lots of them have become hardcore Deafies.....................
 
Exactly......ALL parents went through their dhh kid doing the "now I hear you now, I don't thing" Even severe-profounders!
Audiofuzzy,I'm more questioning the presumption that getting implanted ASAP is going to give them any sort of edge. Remember until recently a lot of even severe-profounders didn't get aids until we were toddlers. I'm not saying wait til the kid is a toddler.......just saying that the "implant ASAP" thinking almost seems to be like the faction that HAS to get their kids in the right nursery school, or they won't ever go to Harvard.

Is there an appreciable difference between kids who are implanted within six months of dx, vs kids who were implanted post one year old?
Oh, and Rick how do we know that the study isn't biased? You can prove almost ANYTHING through studies. If a completly neutral review found that implanted oral kids were doing on par with hearing kids, I'd be impressed. But the thing is, I bet twenty years ago the experts could have produced simalir data.
Oh and rick, you're WRONG about the Deaf culture dying. Yes, there are some dhh folks who feel totally comfortable in hearing society and don't need Sign or anything..........but there have ALWAYS been people like that. It's been pretty much a rule of thumb that most "oral" kids do eventually pick up ASL as a second language!

If you take under consideration how human language is developing after birth, it's rather logical the sooner the better. There is a reason why professionals encourage parents to talk to their unborn baby, it's not only for "bonding", it's mental stimulation too. Audio stimulation is even more important after birth, of course.
The more stimulation happened in the early stages of life, the more connections were made in these centres in the brain that are later responsible for many brain functions, among them speech and hearing.
(Likewise, newborns have these fancy mobile toys hanged over their beds not only to provide entertainment but mainly to stimulate their vision).
That is why I personally believe time does make a significant difference, and because little babies develop in really milestones in a short time comparing to adults -yes I also daresay the six months can be a considerable difference.

If you compare a day old baby to a six month one, you can see for yourself at what speed these tiny tykes are developing. what a huge changes happened during just six months time.

That does not mean I am not aware of the fact that very early hearing testing might not be as reliable as one would wish for it to be. yes there is this problem, and it makes even me uneasy.
still, I think if there is no doubt as to child's deafness, sooner is better.

(btw with HAs it might be a little different because they only amplify sound, they will not stimulate and develop response to the sounds that can not be heard thru them but could be thru CI, and also, let's keep in mind that what was thought appropriate years ago is not neccessarily considered such nowadays).


Oh, and once again, I am not saying having close to normal or at least a very good hearing and speech is a straight way to Harvard, of course for this is more than just ability to hear and speak required. We are discussing just the time factor in implanting.

Fuzzy
 
Then you may appropriately state "Bell is biased source" - and any personal comments about posters keep to yourself.

Fuzzy

As before, when did you become a moderator? And secondly, care to follow your own advise? Thirdly, I did state that the A.G. Bell Association is a biased source.
 
We are talking about spoken languge. Please show me a study that shows that non-implanted deaf children developed spoken language at the same rate as their hearing peers.

What study is that you are refering to. You are very good at saying "Study shows this" or a "study shows that" but interestingly you never cite the study.

Sorry, but you source simply states "langauge". I have posted in the past numerous references to studies that indicate that deaf children, both implanted and non-implanted, perform better academically and socially when exposed to both sign and speech. When it comes to cognitive development, language is the issue, not mode of language. The most recent research I cited came from the Oxford Journal of Deaf Ed. and was an extensive literature review of several studies done with implanted children.

And, in summary of a study, it is not neccessary to cite. Citation is only required when directly quoting.
 
The article was about the results of early childhood implantation being comparable to those of hearing peers in the development of spoken language.

Actually the article used the term "language development", not spoken langauge development.

The article was written by individuals, not by the AGBell organization. The article was published in one of their publications. You were the person who introduced the red herring of the views of Alexander Graham Bell that was quickly seized upon by your sycophants in an attempt to derail any discussion about the merits of the article and its usefulness to parents considering the cochlear implant for their child.

I am well aware that the article was written by individuals, and published by the A.G. Bell Association. Waht is the point? The publication is still the property of an oralist organization, and the articles they choose to publish are reflective of their philosophies. Poitning that out does not discredit article, but simply provides the information necessary to realistically evaluate the usefulness of the information.

But that is your modus operandi because you have no valid arguments against cochlear implants for children. The fact is that you are part of a rapidly shriking part of the Deaf Community who oppose cochlear implants for children. You have lost your fight because parents, both hearing and deaf, in ever increasing numbers are choosing the cochlear implant for their children and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it! You have lost because the parents have seen the countless thosuands of cochlear implanted kids like Cloggy's Lotte and my daughter who are living and loving examples of the tremendous impact that a cochlear implant can have upon someone's life. You have lost because you and your crowd can never ever answer the fundamental question of "What is wrong about being able to hear and to speak?"

Once again, you are making false assumptions in order to support your own position. That is an extremely ineffective way to present your cse. I am not anti-CI implantation in children. I am anti-oralist attitude of making spoken language and hearing the whole focus of the deaf child's environment. Those are two very differnet situations, and apparently, you are incapable of understanding that, as you continue to make your false assumtions about them being one and the same thing. And, as you bring up Lotte as an example, I might remind you that, due tot he oral environment that Cloggy has chosen for his daughter, she is a 5 year old child with the language development of a 3 year old child. That is a significant delay that will inevitable cause difficulties academically. The CI could not overcome that. A child who can speak can still suffer cognitive consequences of being language deprived. A child who has increased sound perception as a result of having been implanted can still suffer cognitive consequences of having been and continueing to be, language deprived. Any parent considering implant needs to understand that, as well. If the goal is to provide the most benefit for the child, then the parents also need to understand the limits of the CI in providing their child the optimal environment for growth and functioning.

And with that, I am signing off, enjoying knowing you have lost but that the children and their parents have won and how much that irks you and finally, asking the moderator to close this thread.

Oh, but it is not me that has lost anything. The child in the oral only environment is the one who has lost. It is really disgraceful that you choose to reduce something so important to a child's development to a juvenile status of "I win, you loose". It is not about you, and it is not about me....it is about providing optimal opportunity for deaf children.
 
The article was about the results of early childhood implantation being comparable to those of hearing peers in the development of spoken language.

Actually the article used the term "language development", not spoken langauge development.

The article was written by individuals, not by the AGBell organization. The article was published in one of their publications. You were the person who introduced the red herring of the views of Alexander Graham Bell that was quickly seized upon by your sycophants in an attempt to derail any discussion about the merits of the article and its usefulness to parents considering the cochlear implant for their child.

I am well aware that the article was written by individuals, and published by the A.G. Bell Association. Waht is the point? The publication is still the property of an oralist organization, and the articles they choose to publish are reflective of their philosophies. Poitning that out does not discredit article, but simply provides the information necessary to realistically evaluate the usefulness of the information.

But that is your modus operandi because you have no valid arguments against cochlear implants for children. The fact is that you are part of a rapidly shriking part of the Deaf Community who oppose cochlear implants for children. You have lost your fight because parents, both hearing and deaf, in ever increasing numbers are choosing the cochlear implant for their children and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it! You have lost because the parents have seen the countless thosuands of cochlear implanted kids like Cloggy's Lotte and my daughter who are living and loving examples of the tremendous impact that a cochlear implant can have upon someone's life. You have lost because you and your crowd can never ever answer the fundamental question of "What is wrong about being able to hear and to speak?"

Once again, you are making false assumptions in order to support your own position. That is an extremely ineffective way to present your cse. I am not anti-CI implantation in children. I am anti-oralist attitude of making spoken language and hearing the whole focus of the deaf child's environment. Those are two very differnet situations, and apparently, you are incapable of understanding that, as you continue to make your false assumtions about them being one and the same thing. And, as you bring up Lotte as an example, I might remind you that, due tot he oral environment that Cloggy has chosen for his daughter, she is a 5 year old child with the language development of a 3 year old child. That is a significant delay that will inevitable cause difficulties academically. The CI could not overcome that. A child who can speak can still suffer cognitive consequences of being language deprived. A child who has increased sound perception as a result of having been implanted can still suffer cognitive consequences of having been and continueing to be, language deprived. Any parent considering implant needs to understand that, as well. If the goal is to provide the most benefit for the child, then the parents also need to understand the limits of the CI in providing their child the optimal environment for growth and functioning.

And with that, I am signing off, enjoying knowing you have lost but that the children and their parents have won and how much that irks you and finally, asking the moderator to close this thread.

Oh, but it is not me that has lost anything. The child in the oral only environment is the one who has lost. It is really disgraceful that you choose to reduce something so important to a child's development to a juvenile status of "I win, you loose". It is not about you, and it is not about me....it is about providing optimal opportunity for deaf children.

Amen to that!
 
If you take under consideration how human language is developing after birth, it's rather logical the sooner the better.

The only thing that your reference to langauge development, and again, you are actually referring to acquisition, not development, indicates is that a child should be in a language rich environment from birth forward. Language, again, is not simply oral/auditory modes, but manual language as well. Early exposure to sign and speech has a much more profound effect on the language development and the cognitive development of the deaf child than does infant implantation.
There is a reason why professionals encourage parents to talk to their unborn baby, it's not only for "bonding", it's mental stimulation too. Audio stimulation is even more important after birth, of course.

Visual stimulation is eqaully important after birth for cognitive development. Even hearing infants need visual stimulation following birth for neural pathways to develop appropriately. Why do you think all infant toys are brightly colored and designed to capture an infant's attention visually? Why do you think parent's hang mobiles over an infant's crib? The neural pathways necessary for the processing and comprehension of language are not dependent upon sound, but can readily be developed visually as well. Auditory stimulation is necessary only in developing pathways necessary for spoken langauge. This has been supported for years through the data that deaf children of deaf parents develop language at the same rates as hearing children of hearing parents, and that they later fuinction academically at the same comparable rates.
The more stimulation happened in the early stages of life, the more connections were made in these centres in the brain that are later responsible for many brain functions, among them speech and hearing.
(Likewise, newborns have these fancy mobile toys hanged over their beds not only to provide entertainment but mainly to stimulate their vision).
That is why I personally believe time does make a significant difference, and because little babies develop in really milestones in a short time comparing to adults -yes I also daresay the six months can be a considerable difference.

Time is of the essence, and the essence we are discussing is language exposure. If you want to discuss optimal development, you can not reduce it to exposure through only one source. That in no way provides the environment for optimal development.

If you compare a day old baby to a six month one, you can see for yourself at what speed these tiny tykes are developing. what a huge changes happened during just six months time.

Exactly. And a six moth old baby that has been exposed to sign from birth can communicate through the use of single approximated signs, whether hearing or deaf. They cannot, however, communicate at that point through the use of oral approximations of spoken langauge. A CI will not change that.

That does not mean I am not aware of the fact that very early hearing testing might not be as reliable as one would wish for it to be. yes there is this problem, and it makes even me uneasy.
still, I think if there is no doubt as to child's deafness, sooner is better.

(btw with HAs it might be a little different because they only amplify sound, they will not stimulate and develop response to the sounds that can not be heard thru them but could be thru CI, and also, let's keep in mind that what was thought appropriate years ago is not neccessarily considered such nowadays).

The schedules of development that a child goes through have not changed. The only thing that has changed is technology, and our understanding of the way a child acquires language and adapts to environment and personal circumstance. And that really hasn't changed much in recent times, it has simply been expanded upon.


Oh, and once again, I am not saying having close to normal or at least a very good hearing and speech is a straight way to Harvard, of course for this is more than just ability to hear and speak required. We are discussing just the time factor in implanting.

A child who has been exposed to sign at the earliest possible point in development will be able to transfer their innate understanding of language and its funtions to the understanding and interpretation of language in an oral/auditory mode. The crucial thing is to provide the atmosphere that permits that early acquisition that allows for the understanding of language and its use, and that is best accomplished through use of the child's stronger sensory perception. In the case of a child that is deaf, it would be their visual sense. Even with implantation, a deaf child's visual perception is stronger than their auditory perception.
 
Shel said:
It is really disgraceful that you choose to reduce something so important to a child's development to a juvenile status of "I win, you loose". It is not about you, and it is not about me....it is about providing optimal opportunity for deaf children.


Amen!!! I agree with you wholeheartedly! :thumb:


I don't agree with alot of A.G. Bell Association ideas when it comes to opportunities for children to listen and use their own voices, they don't even added signs to that opportunities, they're trying to pursing children into oral education. I'm not so surprised Rick would agree with this article, because that's the type of method he uses on his cochlear implant daughter. :-x
 
Amen!!! I agree with you wholeheartedly! :thumb:


I don't agree with alot of A.G. Bell Association ideas when it comes to opportunities for children to listen and use their own voices, they don't even added signs to that opportunities, they're trying to pursing children into oral education. I'm not so surprised Rick would agree with this article, because that's the type of method he uses on his cochlear implant daughter. :-x

And that is exactly the point I was making. It is not providing complete inforamtion, but biased information. If the goal is to provide complete information to parents who are considering implants, then we also need to point out where the inforamtion comes from and how it might be biased and counter with information that shows the opposite view.
 
I am not being defensive. I am tired of you derailing every valuable discussion with your unneccessary and personal asumptions. I don't give fiddle whether Rick or Harry or Jack is a member of AGB or IRA of KKK or if he is a skinehad.

His thread is about early implantation and if you wish to address this issue you can do it without personal and unproven accusations.
And I will reply to any thread as I see relevant. I am entitled to it.

Fuzzy

And you don't derail valuable discussions? Just because those threads weren't all POSITIVE about Ci's does not make them any less valuable Fuzzy.


I think one think before they speak. Look how many threads got locked up because YOU purposely made sure the fighting in those threads got it locked up. But I am noticing in YOUR own thread and those POSITIVE CI threads you behave and act oh so respectful!

This is like the pot calling the kettle black IMHO!
 
And you don't derail valuable discussions? Just because those threads weren't all POSITIVE about Ci's does not make them any less valuable Fuzzy.


I think one think before they speak. Look how many threads got locked up because YOU purposely made sure the fighting in those threads got it locked up. But I am noticing in YOUR own thread and those POSITIVE CI threads you behave and act oh so respectful!

This is like the pot calling the kettle black IMHO!

I love you, Bear. As always, you are the voice of reason!
 
Sorry, but you source simply states "langauge". .

Sure, the logical conclusion is not that early implanted infants were developing spoken language at a rate comparable to their hearing peers but that they were developing a manual language at the same rate as their hearing peers. Of course, of course.

And yes, when it comes to anti-ci individuals like yourself, we have won for children in ever increasing numbers are getting implants and there is nothing you can do, say or type that will change that.
 
And you don't derail valuable discussions? Just because those threads weren't all POSITIVE about Ci's does not make them any less valuable Fuzzy.


I think one think before they speak. Look how many threads got locked up because YOU purposely made sure the fighting in those threads got it locked up. But I am noticing in YOUR own thread and those POSITIVE CI threads you behave and act oh so respectful!

This is like the pot calling the kettle black IMHO!

And if you are so naive to believe that there does not exist a double standard on this forum applied by the moderators as to posts made by Fuzzy, myself and Cloggy, then there is a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you.
 
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