Dude...

[StSapphire]

"Dad, please, you are really embarrassing me!"

"I don't give a shit how you feel son, I'm having fun!"

Also, your fake quotes weren't in your original response, but this alone shows your bias, clear as day.

 

[kokonut]

Therapy fund?

It's called "humor."

 

[jillio]

The sample would have been "people you have interacted with that have shaped your opinions".

The hypothesis would have been "this is intentionally embarrassing and harmful and abusive".

I view everything as potential research! Or at least I like to recycle terms when they appear to be vaguely similar.

Your implications seem to be that all forms of any even vaguely negative emotions are inherently harmful, which appears to me to quite simply be a crock.

I know that personal anecdotes are not persuasive arguments, but can you at least point out the flaw in the following one? As a child, I often expressed embarrassment that my parents wouldn't buy me an SNES like all the other kids had, and I also expressed disgust that they made me eat things like vegetables and potatoes. Both of these were negative emotions. Do you consider the actions which caused me to feel these emotions were harmful and should have been altered? I specifically remember informing my parents several times of my acute embarrassment at not having an SNES, and of my severe disgust of carrots and potatoes, so they were well aware of the negative emotions I had.

Again, this is not a research project.

I have implied nothing of the kind. Negative emotions are very useful. They guide us in avoiding those experiences perceived as harmful to us.

You are attempting to compare apples to oranges. There were other ways to address the problem that would not have resulted to embarrassment to the child. But that'sokay. Keep believing that a parent embarassing a child in front of their peers is perfectly acceptable as long as the parent is entertained by the action. It keeps me in business.

 

[jillio]

Also, your fake quotes weren't in your original response, but this alone shows your bias, clear as day.

Advocating for a child's well being is not an example of bias. It is an example of priority setting.

 

[jillio]

It's called "humor."

No, it's called emotional abuse.

 

[StSapphire]

Again, this is not a research project.

I have implied nothing of the kind. Negative emotions are very useful. They guide us in avoiding those experiences perceived as harmful to us.

You are attempting to compare apples to oranges. There were other ways to address the problem that would not have resulted to embarrassment to the child. But that'sokay. Keep believing that a parent embarassing a child in front of their peers is perfectly acceptable as long as the parent is entertained by the action. It keeps me in business.

As mentioned, I'm aware, but I see nothing wrong with applying the same principles that you would of a research project to real-life discussions. They provide a useful framework for overcoming bias.

As to your actual issue with my post, you say it's comparing apples to oranges. First off, what is? My example of personal embarrassment compared to this kid's embarrassment? I specifically asked you to point out how it was different. I'm sure it is, that was just my first thought and I'm curious how it's wrong (assuming it is).

That last sentence, of course, is blatantly misleading and you very well know it, since neither I (nor anyone else) has stated that selfishly doing something the way you described is "perfectly acceptable". I (and as often as I disagree with him, Koko, too) instead have rejected your description of the behavior as merely a selfish indulgence of an abusive parent and your assumption of that as the default description for behavior of this sort with complete disregard to knowing anything about the specific situation or the players in it.

 

[jillio]

As mentioned, I'm aware, but I see nothing wrong with applying the same principles that you would of a research project to real-life discussions. They provide a useful framework for overcoming bias.

Perhaps that is why you are unable to develop the empathy necessary to see the position this parent has placed this child in.

As to your actual issue with my post, you say it's comparing apples to oranges. First off, what is? My example of personal embarrassment compared to this kid's embarrassment? I specifically asked you to point out how it was different. I'm sure it is, that was just my first thought and I'm curious how it's wrong (assuming it is).

No, the reasoning behind it. This parent could have easily solved the problem in a way that did not create embarrassement for the child.

That last sentence, of course, is blatantly misleading and you very well know it, since neither I (nor anyone else) has stated that selfishly doing something the way you described is "perfectly acceptable". I (and as often as I disagree with him, Koko, too) instead have rejected your description of the behavior as merely a selfish indulgence of an abusive parent and your assumption of that as the default description for behavior of this sort with complete disregard to knowing anything about the specific situation or the players in it.

It isn't misleading in the least. You are defending the actions. Generally speaking, one does not defend that which they consider to be unacceptable.

 

[StSapphire]

Advocating for a child's well being is not an example of bias. It is an example of priority setting.

No, it's called emotional abuse.

This is a bit of a non-sequitur, but have you ever read fan story "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"?

The reason I ask is that this entire conversation reminds me immensely of a scene from that story:

McGonagall pointed toward a store that looked as if it had been made from flesh instead of bricks and covered in fur instead of paint. "Small pets are permitted at Hogwarts - you could get an owl to send letters, for example -"

"Can I pay a Knut or something and rent an owl when I need to send mail?"

"Yes," said McGonagall.

"Then I think emphatically no."

McGonagall nodded, as though ticking off a point. "Might I ask why not?"

"I had a pet rock once. It died."

"You don't think you could take care of a pet?"

"I could," Harry said, "but I would end up obsessing all day long about whether I'd remembered to feed it that day or if it was slowly starving in its cage, wondering where its master was and why there wasn't any food."

"That poor owl," McGonagall said in a soft voice. "Abandoned like that. I wonder what it would do."

"Well, it'd get really hungry and start trying to claw its way out of the cage or the box or whatever, though it probably wouldn't have much luck with that -" Harry stopped short.

McGonagall went on, still in that soft voice. "And what would happen to it afterward?"

"Excuse me," Harry said, and he took McGonagall by the hand, gently but firmly, and steered her into yet another byway; after ducking so many well-wishers the process had become almost unnoticeably routine. "Please cast that Quietus thingy."

"Quietus."

Harry's voice was shaking. "That owl does not represent me, my parents never locked me in a closet and left me to starve, I do not have abandonment fears and I don't like the trend of your thoughts, Professor McGonagall!"

The witch looked down at him. "And what thoughts would those be, Mr. Potter?"

"You think I was," Harry was having trouble saying it, "I was abused?"

"Were you?"

"No!" Harry shouted. "No, I never was! Do you think I'm stupid? I know about the concept of child abuse, I know about inappropriate touching and all of that and if anything like that happened I would call the police! And report it to the school principal! And look up government offices in the phone book! And tell Grandma and Grandpa and Mrs. Figg! But my parents never did anything like that, never ever ever! How dare you suggest such a thing!"

McGonagall gazed at him steadily. "It is my duty as Deputy Headmistress to investigate possible signs of abuse in the children under my care."

Harry's anger was spiraling out of control into pure, black fury. "Don't you ever dare breathe a word of these, these insinuations to anyone else! No one, do you hear me, McGonagall? An accusation like that can ruin people and destroy families even when the parents are completely innocent! I've read about it in the newspapers!" Harry's voice was climbing to a high-pitched scream. "The system doesn't know how to stop, it doesn't believe the parents or the children when they say nothing happened! Don't you dare threaten my family with that! I won't let you destroy my home!"

(In this version of the story, instead of being raised by his actually abusive family like the original books, he was raised by a caring family whose father was a professor at Oxford.)

I can quite easily picture this story with you as McGonagall and the teenager kid as Potter. You're making extremely serious accusations of child abuse (admittedly, on the internet, where your words carry no functional weight, but I'm addressing this on the assumption that you would equally in real life), based on a single statement made in a newspaper article, without knowing anything else about the child, the family or anything of their familial dynamics.

That is extremely reckless and potentially harmful, especially if you ever expressed such opinions in real life where your opinion is backed by the weight of your degrees and career, and as such you are in a position where simply expressing your opinion in such an offhanded manner could carry devastating consequences.

 

[StSapphire]

Perhaps that is why you are unable to develop the empathy necessary to see the position this parent has placed this child in.

You're right, I'm looking at the situation with as little bias as I can muster, which prevents me from being blinded by potentially misplaced empathy that is purely drive by a potentially overactive imagination.

I have enough empathy to know that I haven't got a clue about any of the people in this family, including the child in question. Surely even you can appreciate that people are extremely varied and react very differently in certain situations dependent upon their personality and any number of various variables that I couldn't even begin to guess at.

No, the reasoning behind it. This parent could have easily solved the problem in a way that did not create embarrassement for the child.

What problem? The fact that the kid was quoted as saying "it's embarrassing"?

It isn't misleading in the least. You are defending the actions. Generally speaking, one does not defend that which they consider to be unacceptable.

I defended his actions. (Actually to be fair, I'm simply defending an interpretation of his actions that is different from your own, rather than the actions themselves. I think the whole family seems a bit weird, given the names of the kids I saw and the fact that they even thought of doing this. Weird isn't the same as harmful, though. Not even close.) What I did not do was defend your straw man interpretation of his actions, because I think that description is inaccurate and misleading given the information I was able to glean from the situation as described, unless you're privy to hidden information in regards to this situation that you've yet to share.

 

[AlleyCat]

It's called "humor."

Therapy?

Even on a public website? A blog that asks for paypal donations?

Otay.

Can't help but laugh at the absurdity of your response.

 

[kokonut]

Perhaps it's a continuing effort to try and not appear to agree with the OP or with certain posters by consistently doing these non-sequiturs? Afterall, this is one of the feel good story of the year. And the son now has a wonderful memory to look back on. Yet, people accuse parents of child abuse? Rather reckless to do that.

I agree with your last paragraph in post #48, stsaphire.

 

[AlleyCat]

Where's the vacuum? Can I borrow it?

 

[kokonut]

You're right, I'm looking at the situation with as little bias as I can muster, which prevents me from being blinded by potentially misplaced empathy that is purely drive by a potentially overactive imagination.

I have enough empathy to know that I haven't got a clue about any of the people in this family, including the child in question. Surely even you can appreciate that people are extremely varied and react very differently in certain situations dependent upon their personality and any number of various variables that I couldn't even begin to guess at.

What problem? The fact that the kid was quoted as saying "it's embarrassing"?

I defended his actions. (Actually to be fair, I'm simply defending an interpretation of his actions that is different from your own, rather than the actions themselves. I think the whole family seems a bit weird, given the names of the kids I saw and the fact that they even thought of doing this. Weird isn't the same as harmful, though. Not even close.) What I did not do was defend your straw man interpretation of his actions, because I think that description is inaccurate and misleading given the information I was able to glean from the situation as described, unless you're privy to hidden information in regards to this situation that you've yet to share.

The kid also said in retrospect in a video interview on YouTube in that blog site, "I just find it funny now."

That tells alot about the whole so called "abuse" issue as nothing but hot air.

Even though he admitted it was embarrassing on some days but he certainly got the hang of it two months later. If anything, this whole waving thing made him even more popular on the bus (and in school). I bet there were a lot of kids who were envious of his father wishing their father would be just as humorous, loose and loving.

 

[kokonut]

Therapy?

Even on a public website? A blog that asks for paypal donations?

Otay.

Can't help but laugh at the absurdity of your response.

How so?

I think it's a clever way to help pay for Rain's college tuition. Nothing wrong with that. I'm sure Rain doesn't mind.

 

[StSapphire]

Therapy?

Even on a public website? A blog that asks for paypal donations?

Otay.

Can't help but laugh at the absurdity of your response.

Yeah, sorry, but this really isn't all that unusual. It could simply be how his family expresses themselves. For those who see or have been harmed by abuse and similar actions, it can be hard to realize (or at least can be viewed as in bad taste) that some families honestly are comfortable enough with themselves and each other to be able to joke about things like "going to therapy" or whatnot. It's not always subconscious slips of admittance, sometimes there's really just not anything wrong.

I agree with your last paragraph in post #48.

Also, you need to stop being reasonable, because you're hurting my e-reputation. I'm supposed to disagree with you all the time. Go back to talking about politics or something where we vehemently disagree. :P

 

[AlleyCat]

Oh! Another popularity contest! How cool!

 

[Babyblue]

Also, you need to stop being reasonable, because you're hurting my e-reputation. I'm supposed to disagree with you all the time. Go back to talking about politics or something where we vehemently disagree. :P

 

[MidnightSun]

Waving at the bus

Wow..Jillio, I usually am in agreement with you on most topics, but think
sometimes people looking in don't get the entire picture. I would have loved it if either of my parents had done this for me. Dad wasn't doing it for himself he admits he had to get up early and be creative not to use the same costume twice. I totally disagree about this being some kind of abuse that is going to end up with the child in a therapists office hating his dad.

I think one of the sadest things is when tradition is lost. and this was a tradition between dad and son. Yes he stated he was embarrased, but thats a normal response from a teenager about a parent doing anything..lol..
He and his friends were laughing and waving back. and Yes this is much healthier then the warped moms who dress the litle girls up for toddler beauty competitions. and the screaming moms and dads who teach the kids that a good fight with lots of cussing is the way to enjoy a little league game.

Sorry, but there are alot of abused children in this world and I am an advocate to identify and end DV and childhood abuse. This is a horse of a different color. I bet this young man will remember and grin about his dad
because I also bet he got alot of love and knew his dad cared.He did extremely well in school and will have stories to tell his kids about Grandpop.
Every kid should be so lucky to have a parent make an effort to show he cared
everyday for a year. Midnight♥♥ Peace to all..everyday

 

[StSapphire]

The kid also said in retrospect in a video interview on YouTube in that blog site, "I just find it funny now."

That tells alot about the whole so called "abuse" issue as nothing but hot air.

Even though he admitted it was embarrassing on some days but he certainly got the hang of it two months later. If anything, this whole waving thing made him even more popular on the bus (and in school). I bet there were a lot of kids who were envious of his father wishing their father would be just as humorous, loose and loving.

Keep in mind that once you've decided what sort of a situation something is, it's quite easy to fit your observations to match, especially when you have the handy tool of "denial" to explain away even the refutations of the "victim" himself.

That was a common joke/method of teasing/bullying among people I knew in high school - one person would claim something that was perceived as negative (such as being gay) applied to a kid. If the victim responds at all, they're either "in denial" (which obviously means it's true) or they've admitted it (which also means it's true), and if they don't respond, it also means it's true, because otherwise they'd stand up for themselves.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I'm afraid this time I totally agree with Kokonut and Saphire.