Do you support suicide assistance?

[jillio]

Yeah, I remember him

He helped many terminal ill people die.

Yes, but he actually administered the drugs to the patients....something that is strictly forbidden in PAS. That's where he got himself into trouble.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

wow long 12 pages since my last post of yesterday...

Yes I can understand that we use Terri Schavio´s case as an example and have no problem for that but I am trying to do my best to use Terri as an example over Living Will issues, to avoid our different POV over Terri´s case like what we did at Terri Schavio threads in the past. I know that we posted plenty links about doctors/experts different POV there but we are here to talk about suicide assistance and living will.

I will be back for view your posts later.



P.S. interesting poll...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

In my opinion there's no differences, they both are the same in a similar way, a suicide is a suicide, does not matter if it's done by a doctor or self, doesn't matter what reason either.

You did not answer my question.

AllDeaf.com - View Single Post - Do you support suicide assistance?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

How am I making assumptions? I am respecting your opinions as well as others here, the problem is you're rolling your eyes (my question is where's the respect to our opinions?) you are saying they're not the same when that's where I disagree. It may not be the same way as how it is done, but suicide is a person who intentionally kills his/herself, that's what it is define in the dictionary. Committed suicide is an act of killing his/herself. Assisted suicide is an act that is done by a doctor or another individual because of illness. Both definitions are involve the ending of life. Understand what I mean now?

Your own assumption word.

Cheri´s post
I don't understand why you have to rolled your eyes, not everyone is going to agree with you. It's like saying you're right and some of us are wrong. there's no right nor wrong. Ty.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

You need to check your facts. There was a court case involving Karen which gave people the right to pull the plug.

Karen Ann Quinlan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After seeing Karen like this for several months, her family finally came to the conclusion that she was beyond hope, and decided to remove her from the ventilator. Hospital officials refused. The Quinlan family persevered, and in 1976 they took their case to the New Jersey Supreme Court, which ruled in their favor. When she was taken off the respirator, Quinlan surprised many by continuing to breathe unaided, and was fed by artificial nutrition for nine more years.

for post the interesting link.

 

[Cheri]

Your own assumption word.

Cheri´s post
I don't understand why you have to rolled your eyes, not everyone is going to agree with you. It's like saying you're right and some of us are wrong. there's no right nor wrong. Ty.

I said "It's like saying" I didn't say you said it, I'm saying it sounds like it to me. Never mind that, Let's move on. Okay?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

It's wrong to take Terri's life away without her consent. It doesn't matter if she is unable to make the decision at the time when she was in this condition. It was very wrong of her husband to end her life by starvin' her to death. By " endin' someone's life " is still morally wrong. If, Terri hadn't make a livin' will at the time before she fall into this terrible condition, then her husband shouldn't have end her life in the first place. He SHOULD support her through until her fate or destiny takes over to end her life naturally. Like for instance : Karen Ann Quinlan. Does that ring a bell to you ? Her devoted Catholic parents stood up for her for years and refused to end her life until Karen died on her own by natural cause. I am very impressed by her parents' showin' love for her daughter. It touched people's lives. That's what I would like to see in some parents - but, unfortunately, I don't see many of them are like Karen's parents.

Well, many people have no problem to agree each other to save their beloved ones´ suffering is pulled the machine plug out, remove organs from dead brain patients for donation to save other people´s life, etc. They negotiate out of their mouth to respect their wishes each other or some forward living will to doctor for file... They understand the logical that human and pets have pain... until Terri Schavio´s case.... The lawmaker decide that we should write living will for the case because the family or children might against spouse or parent for end their life by turn the machine off, etc... The living will helps to prevent them from fighting/harass each other.

You cannot expect anyone follow Karen´s parents example. You also cannot compare Karen Ann Quinlan´s parents with other parents because each person is different and have different decision as Karen´s parents. You cannot tell other people what to do because it´s their choice, not yours.

 

[Cheri]

P.S. interesting poll...

Yeah, It's a close vote.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Who would have thought of " livin' will " ? Not until Terri's life was terminated by her own husband and then, the talks of livin' will began after her death. It affected many people to think about, because of what happened to Terri and that it was wrong of her husband to cut her life short -- that's what it impacted people today....so, therefore, this livin' will became a law when it first created. It was never created before.

Living will was exist before Terri´s case like what I said before that most people negotiate out of their mouth to respect their wishes each other with no complication... until Terri Schavio´s case... They decide to make a law about living will... Its about safety.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Let's just say I didn't feel comfortable making that decision and it wasn't easy.

When my cat (Smokey) became very sick, I did everything I could to keep him alive, gave him "special" food, medicines (that was provided by the vet), lots of love and care.

Few days later, I noticed some changes in him, he started breathing erratically, he couldn't get up or move. He was just laying there helpless. It was really difficult not knowing what to do, and the last few hours became worse so I took him back to the vet and asked if there was anything that they could do to help him but unfortunately there was nothing else and was told that he had a very slim chance to survive and it was up to me if I wanted to put him to sleep. Part of me wanted to wait because I wasn't ready but the other part of me wanted to do the right thing by ending his suffering.

I stayed with him while the vet gave him a shot, I was tearing up inside and crying. I pet him and watched him fade away. It sucks but I knew I had to let him go no matter how hard it was. It was heart-wrenching moment for me especially for my children..

I guess it's part of life where we have to go through the painful experiences that can go very deep and everyone handles it differently.

First of all, I´m sorry about the loss of your beloved Smokey. That´s white with few black/grey cat, you are talking about?

Yes, I know, know it´s very hard and hurtful when I was experienced with my feeling about 22 years old Sussi like what you described here... I´m sure that you remember my thread about her last Spring 2008. The Vet estimated that Sussi will have only 3 weeks to live. The vet agreed with our suggestion to wait one more week then we will consider to put her sleep to end her suffering.... Surprisely Sussi cured tumor herself and survive!!!!!! She eat well and walk...with no problem... The vet is speechless It was like miracle... she still is alive. That´s why I rather to wait until I´m 100% sure then.... instead of put human or pet sleep straight way.

 

[Angel]

First of all, I´m sorry about the loss of your beloved Smokey. That´s white with few black/grey cat, you are talking about?

Yes, I know, know it´s very hard and hurtful when I was experienced with my feeling about 22 years old Sussi like what you described here... I´m sure that you remember my thread about her last Spring 2008. The Vet estimated that Sussi will have only 3 weeks to live. The vet agreed with our suggestion to wait one more week then we will consider to put her sleep to end her suffering.... Surprisely Sussi cured tumor herself and survive!!!!!! She eat well and walk...with no problem... The vet is speechless It was like miracle... she still is alive. That´s why I rather to wait until I´m 100% sure then.... instead of put human or pet sleep straight way.

There you go, sometimes doctors or vets could be wrong, othertimes they're mostly right. I'm a strong believer in miracles and I don't give up easy either. some people must think I'm crazy, maybe I am but I've seen and read many wonderful stories about those who survived and healed. It's amazing.

Recently, my husband showed me a story that was printed in "Reader's Digest". It was about a firefighter, Donny Herbert who was in coma for 10 years then he finally woke up staring talking etc. It was an amazing story. but the sad part is 3 months later he came down with pneumonia and a high fever, then he died.

Yes I remember your story about your cat Sussi, that was really a miracle.

No, Smokey was the seventh cat we had when my second son was born, he was the only cat that was put to sleep. (you didn't meet Smokey, he died long before you came up and visited)

Smokey looks exactly like the cat (Church) that played in the movie "Pet Sematary"

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Thank you, Liebling -- and I am sorry about your MIL. <hugs>

Hear Again,

 

[Liebling:-)))]

It makes me wonder if later in the future if we will develop MORE technology to keep people alive but still brain dead or suffering while still incurable. This is kinda depressing to me.

*nodding agreement sadly*

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Perhaps she meant was people wasn't aware how important the living will was until Terri's case came along. Now people can decide for themselves how they would like to be treated under similar circumstances.

Correct me anytime if I'm wrong Maria.

Yes, Michael and Terri's parents are the reason why we have living will to protect our safety to aviod harass and fight with both families over their beloved one's life. They can't say anything against each other if there're living will because their beloved one's own decision alone, not us.

And I went to the hospital last week no one asked my husband if he had a living will.

The doctor is obligate to advise/suggest your husband about living will IF the result says that your husband's health is incurable/serious. You never know that the family of your husband's side want to end his suffering but you against it then end fighting each other and then court with $$$$ like Michael and Terri's parents did that's why it's obligation to have living will to prove that it's patient's decision, not you and your husband's family side.

Before Terri's case, Michael and Terri's parents get along pretty good until the happened with Terri, they all do everything to improve her health and have hope for her but no hope and no improve... They visited different doctors/experts for their second or more opinions and recieve doctors/experts different POV for several years... end to hostile each other over their different POV for agree with doctors/experts on Terris' life which is no good, that's why the law make sure that we should not do the same as what Michael and Terri's parents did.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

The doctors that removed the feeding tube under an order from the court.

Teri Shivo's body could not be nourished through any other than artificial means. She could not eat, she could not drink, she could not even experience the sensations of hunger and thirst because her brain was so injured. If your brain does not send the messages to your body, your body dies. The brain controls all of the bodies functions, from eating, sleeping, breathing, heart beating, to elimination of waste. If the brain can no longer tell the body to do these things, they don't get done and the body dies.

Jiro's post
why worry about heart if the person is brain-dead which means... ZERO chance of recovery... ZERO chance of normality... there's no miracle at all... not even 0.001% unless Jesus Christ himself descended from the heaven and breathed a life into her. Why do you want a dead body to continue to live on by machines? Heart itself does not define a person... or a soul. It's in the brain and that brain is long gone long time ago.

Yes, that's right.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

For your information, I ain't worry. It is just that I don't agree about the brain-dead thing that some of you believe it died first before the heart. Brain-dead don't make the body turnin' BLUE until the heart stops beatin' then it will turn BLUE - meanin' that the body is officially DEAD.

Brain Death
One of the main areas where legal death is usually pronounced is when a person is considered brain dead. Brain death is considered an irreversible coma. A patient is diagnosed as brain dead when there is absolutely no brain activity going on. Brain death is legal in every state, with exceptions for New York and New Jersey. They have exceptions since some believe that a person’s lungs and heart should stop working before it can be declared they are really dead. Many people who have been deemed brain dead are in a vegetative state. A vegetative state is when a person can seem to be awake, have their eyes open, yet they are not aware of anything and their brains are not functioning. A lot of families will argue that their loved one moves, or is responding to them. It is common for younger patients to be able to live a very long time in a vegetative state, and if kept alive by artificial means, “these patients typically die of pneumonia, urinary tract infections, or sepsis related to skin breakdown.” Well known younger patients who were diagnosed brain dead are Terri Schiavo, Nancy Cruzan, and Karen Ann Quinlan. All three of these women were in a vegetative state and never regained consciousness. In each case, loved ones of the patients went to court in order for their brain dead family member to be allowed to die without being kept alive by artificial nutrition. The reason these women were allowed to die without it being considered murder was because they were pronounced legally dead. They are known as “right-to-die” cases, since they had a good reason for the right to die.[2]

With time the definition of legal death has been reexamined and altered as our technology enhances. The definition of death use to include only cessation of heart and lungs but now after further development it has been altered so that it can include permanent and irreversible brain failure. By June 1987, 39 states had also adopted this law into action to include brain death.[3] Changing the definition will always bring up new ethical concerns; especially when it involves organ transplants.

Legal death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Brain dead patients will never eat, walk or talk like normal people... just nothing... It's waste to stay under the machine for years.... look at the people who waiting for their organ transplant because they have CHANCE to be survive...

Yes, we accept the fact that it's useless to cure Brain dead patient because it will NEVER cure but it's useful to have Brain dead patient's organs to save other's life. I know it's very hard but we have to face it...

My friend's son was brain dead after work accident... My friend hope that he will wake up but the doctors insured her that it will NEVER... They explain her that it is possible to have the chance to wake up after long coma if there're no brain dead but her son is brain dead... no chance. Of course she ask several doctors for 'second opinion' and also search google... she agreed with her ex-husband and children to remove son's organs to save others' life.

And my other friend's father was incurable illness with cancer... he was under the machine... but his face and body were swollen like balloon... it's horrible to see him pain like this... so they agreed to turn machine off to end his suffering.

And go on....

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Terri was being kept alive by machines. If these machines werent around, she would have died a long time ago as nature would have intended her to.

Very true.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

What if it was in the 1800s and this happened to Terri when she fell into the comatose state? Would she have died right at that moment or lived for another several years in a vegative state?

Yes, I would like to share the true story what I learn in England...

Back around 1800s in England, (maybe long time before 1800s) the doctors didn't know what a coma was about and confirmed their death. She or He buried alive! .... (I cannot remember the reason why they digged up)... many years later after that they digged up and opened the coffin door and saw many "scratches" on the top of the coffin... it look like that he/she awake up from coma and cries for the help...but nobody heard her/him. They found out that they thought she/he were dead which really is COMA, not intended to bury alive. I assumed that they would never found out that dead brain person was being buried like coma person because brain dead person cannot wake up and scratches on the top of the coffin like what coma person did. It could be that many coma or dead brain people were being buried when they thought they are dead...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

There you go, sometimes doctors or vets could be wrong, othertimes they're mostly right.

True.

I'm a strong believer in miracles and I don't give up easy either. some people must think I'm crazy, maybe I am but I've seen and read many wonderful stories about those who survived and healed. It's amazing.

Depend my judgment on situtation. No, you are not crazy but I want to tell you that there're rare who have miracle like what the vet said about my Sussi.

Recently, my husband showed me a story that was printed in "Reader's Digest". It was about a firefighter, Donny Herbert who was in coma for 10 years then he finally woke up staring talking etc. It was an amazing story. but the sad part is 3 months later he came down with pneumonia and a high fever, then he died.

Yes, coma patients can wake up anytime in months to years but brain dead or brain damaged coma patients?

I know several people in real life and read the magazine about coma... they turn into coma after tick bites (Lyme disease) for weeks to year then wake up. I don't agree to end their life because it's only coma. Tick bites affected one of my friends's brain and turn her into coma. It took her 18 months to wake up and few days later she lost her hearing to deafness. It was happened to her when she was 15 years old. I feel goose bump when she described her coma experience to me. Remember that coma patient is not same thing as dead brain or brain damaged coma patient.

Yes I remember your story about your cat Sussi, that was really a miracle.

Yes, it's very amazing and miracle. I would agree that it's rare like this...

No, Smokey was the seventh cat we had when my second son was born, he was the only cat that was put to sleep. (you didn't meet Smokey, he died long before you came up and visited)

Smokey looks exactly like the cat (Church) that played in the movie "Pet Sematary"

Oh I see...

it's good to know that all of your cats, I saw in real life are still alive.

 

[Maria]

Woman's Waking After Brain Death Raises Many Questions About Organ Donation
Had no detectable brain waves for more than 17 hours

By Hilary White



CHARLESTON, West Virginia, May 27, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A Virginia family was shocked but relieved when their mother, Val Thomas, woke up after doctors said she was dead. 59 year-old Mrs. Thomas, while being kept breathing artificially, had no detectable brain waves for more than 17 hours. The family were discussing organ donation options for their mother when she suddenly woke up and started speaking to nurses. Ethicists have strongly criticized developments in organ donation criteria that would have made Mrs. Thomas a candidate for having her organs removed before she woke up.

At 1:30 am Saturday May 17, Mrs. Thomas' heart had stopped beating and she had no pulse when the family called paramedics. She was without a heartbeat or oxygen for 15 to 20 minutes before being put on a ventilator and transported to a Charleston, West Virginia hospital.

An attempt was made to lower her body temperature but her heart stopped three times causing doctors to estimate that her chance of survival was less than 10 per cent. The ventilator was kept running for nearly 18 hours and rigor mortis had set in while Mrs. Thomas' family considered organ donation. The decision was taken to discontinue life support but ten minutes into the process, Mrs. Thomas moved her arm and began speaking to nurses.

Mrs. Thomas is being examined in a clinic in Cleveland to investigate her heart problems.

Physicians, bioethicists and governments continue to debate the issue of brain death criteria for purposes of organ transplants and determining the exact moment of death has been a source of contention since organ transplants became common. Controversy continues to swirl around the issue as patients in apparently hopeless comatose conditions continue to confound doctors' expectations and awaken.

The problem is time and the rapid deterioration of most vital organs after the cessation of heart function. After death, corneas and bone marrow can still be used but soft vital organs such as the heart, lungs, pancreas and kidneys rapidly deteriorate and are unusable within a few hours. Traditional medical ethicists contend that soft and easily damaged organs such as the heart are impossible to obtain morally since they deteriorate more quickly and must be removed when a patient's condition is still disputed.

One of the most recent and contentious developments is the concept of "non-heart beating organ donation" (NHBD) in which organs are removed from a body as little as five minutes after the cessation of the heart function. In a facility where such criteria are followed, had other factors been favourable and given her lack of brain function, Mrs. Thomas might have been pronounced dead and been a candidate for removal of organs as soon as she arrived at the hospital.

The procedure is also known as donation after cardiac death (DCD), and typically involves a person who requires a ventilator and, while having measurable brain function, is determined to have no hope of recovery. After this judgement is made, doctors remove ventilation from the patient and wait for the heart to stop beating. If the heart stops for five minutes, death is pronounced and the organs are harvested by another surgical team.

The definition of "brain death" also remains controversial, but DCD is even more contested since the method leaves little time for ethical considerations. With "brain death" organs can be harvested at leisure since machines keep air flowing into the lungs and blood circulating; with DCD the stoppage of the heart necessitates very quick harvesting as organs deteriorate without blood flow.

Doctor John B. Shea, medical advisor to Canada's Campaign Life Coalition told LifeSiteNews.com that DCD does represent a potential threat to comatose patients.

Donors for DCD are chosen, he said, not because they are dead, but because their organs are particularly desirable for transplant. Dr. Shea said in a 2006 interview, "The typical scenario for such organ harvesting is a young person between the age of 5-55 who is in good health, is in intensive care due to an automobile accident and is on a ventilator. The doctor makes an arbitrary decision that treatment is futile."

"Those donors are known not to be brain dead but are usually first in a coma and the doctor decides treatment is futile."

Woman's Waking After Brain Death Raises Many Questions About Organ Donation

There's some discussion about the brain-dead and heart stop beatin'. Any thoughts about this issue ? Anyone ?