Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[deafskeptic]

It was during a discussion of the Leo Franks trial.

The north hailed the case as a landmark -- The first time a black man was allowed, in court, to testify against a white man.

The south (This was about 1913) openly laughed at the ignorance of the north. To them Leo Franks was not a white man, he was a Jew.

Me, being the person I am, went over to some Jewish people I knew and said, "Okay, you look like a bunch of honkeys to me. What do you think you are."

They told me all Jews descended by blood, such as they, were of Middle East descent, even if they converted to Christianity. However there are people of non Jewish blood who have converted to the Jewish religion.

I think I could be of Middle Eastern descent. According to some geneological sources, at least (I think there's 2 branches or even 3 but I don't have it confirmed) one branch of my mother's family (Graf/Geoff/Groff )was Jewish centuries ago and they were said to be a rabbinic family before the Church forced them to convert in the 13th century.

 

[Berry]

This thread is bananas.

But you don't have to be of ME descent to be Jewish. Not at all.

You don't have to be Jewish to be Jewish.

And if you are Jewish you can be almost anything.

This is the type of meaningless conversation liberals delight in wasting time over. Being objective or something.

But to a racist the definition is really simple: If you believe in the Jewish religion or you are a descendant of David / Abraham -- Then you qualify.

The Jewish/Jewish community doesn't have a hard time sorting it out.

So let the Jewish person tell you what they are and let it go at that.

 

[jillio]

You don't have to be Jewish to be Jewish.

And if you are Jewish you can be almost anything.

This is the type of meaningless conversation liberals delight in wasting time over. Being objective or something.

But to a racist the definition is really simple: If you believe in the Jewish religion or you are a descendant of David -- Then you qualify.

The Jewish/Jewish community doesn't have a hard time sorting it out.

So let the Jewish person tell you what they are and let it go at that.

And, just because you are Jewish, it doesn't mean that you are also Jewish.:P

My Jewishness comes from ME descent, however.

 

[Berry]

Some how the original post did not show up when I went back to the thread... so I double posted...

It is interesting how different times and places draw different racial lines.

But there is also a distinct parallel in how D/deaf draws the same lines.

However it has been my experience that once accepted into the Deaf community neither race nor religion mean anything.

 

[jillio]

Some how the original post did not show up when I went back to the thread... so I double posted...

It is interesting how different times and places draw different racial lines.

But there is also a distinct parallel in how D/deaf draws the same lines.

However it has been my experience that once accepted into the Deaf community neither race nor religion mean anything.

Right. The I.D. of Deaf supercedes everything else.

 

[shushugah]

Just wanted to say that oralism is absolutely NOT dead. I hope it is disappearing there in the USA, because it would mean it's going to be "out of fashion" here too in the next years...:roll: (you know Italy does what America does, good or bad). But here in Italy, hospitals that dx deaf kids ALWAYS recommend oralism, and speech therapist from public system inside the hospital are ALWAYS oralists. Especially when it comes to CI kids! Shushugah, are you born deaf? How were you educated? Sing language ....?
I know kids that were tied in a high chair to do speech therapy, the therapist repeating sounds with her mouth covered... tongue depressor to learn to pronounce sounds (you should still find some interesting videos on youtube, try "logopedia"). Hours of that, starting very very young, too. Kids that have 2 hours a day of speech therapy at home, by their mother. All mainstreamed, of course...
If that's not oppression, I don't know what it is... And yes, many deaf adults say that's right, because they were grown up the same way and they're happy. Strange coincidence, abused children often say exactly the same thing when they grow up...

I'm all with Berry about spreading Deaf culture inside the hearing one. But that would mean to let go many things for the Deafies too, and I see it's hard for many of them to do so. But time will help, I hope!

And of course, the most effective political act we can do, is be consistent in the way we grow up our children, They are the future. We have to set good exapmles for them, and trust them that they will do right. My hearing child is already signing, and my husband (hearing) often signs with EVERYONE while talking. We are learning so much from Deaf Community and I think the best thing to do is to share, share, share. Not all Deaf people like us, though.

There have been cases of oppression as highlighted by personal experiences of previous posters here, however I would not call this oppression. A kid who has weak muscles and takes therapy to be stronger, despite the pain and sweat, is beneficial not harmful.

I am completely cool with you not wanting to teach oral speech to your kids, that is your choice, lifestyle decision and opinion on the best way to raise a deaf student.

I personally find it very advantageous that despite being born deaf, I have much better speech than most hearing people, and I am a much more effective speaker and communicator. For those same reasons, I know Hebrew, and am learning ASL and Spanish. In the future I wish to know Dutch my mother language as well. My mother speaks 14 languages, and my father speaks over 20 languages. My grandfather is also a holocaust survivor, and the oppression he went through didin't involve linguistics, on the contrary it's a pleasure for him.


I was raised in a pure oralist form, because as many people advised, and I understand you may not like it or agree, they say that if I was taught ASL, I'd prefer it over oral speech, because ASL is indeed much easier to learn. However, more than 1 billion people speak english, not as many speak ASL.

 

[shushugah]

lol. the atrocities are still going on nowadays... very strong.... right here in America. When you hit 21, come to DPHH

But you can try to imagine it right now - an alternative dimension. Imagine your parents believing that you are a "defective product" because you're deaf and that you need CI to hear. Imagine your parents being embarrassed to show you around to people they know. Imagine your parents trying to communicate with you the way they want... not your way and getting frustrated all the time. and the worst part? imagine your parents always doubting you and not believing in you because you're a disabled boy and they think you're incapable of living an independent lifestyle - no driving, no walking by yourself, no hanging out with friends, etc. unless it's supervised.

Errr, my parents are anything but like that. I will agree such views are very shrewd and narrow minded, however they are not the popular opinion either.

My parents are absolutely not ashamed of me, I don't understand where this view of disability equates shame and embarrassment. The jewish community has one of the highest percentages of deafness too, in fact one of the grandons of Jacob from the bible was deaf, and the one to kill Essau. Of course that's just a story if you don't believe in the bible, but it shows that not all people look down on the deaf?

Is deafness a defect? Absolutely, is that a problem? Absolutely not. All people are defected, some have emotional issues, other learning issues, or physical disabilities. A helenistic society make look down on physical disabilities, but that doesn't mean all hearing people do? One of the most respected men in the world, Stephen Hawking, is disabled by all standards.

I am 100% free to go completely deaf if I want to, my parents simply left me the option and choice of both worlds. I can't think of anything more noble of parents to do. We went with the deaf league, we went with hearing groups. I honestly am more concerned about society's views on ethnic cultures and women's rights than on deaf treatment, which for me and my family has been swell.

 

[Jiro]

Errr, my parents are anything but like that. I will agree such views are very shrewd and narrow minded, however they are not the popular opinion either.

My parents are absolutely not ashamed of me, I don't understand where this view of disability equates shame and embarrassment. The jewish community has one of the highest percentages of deafness too, in fact one of the grandons of Jacob from the bible was deaf, and the one to kill Essau. Of course that's just a story if you don't believe in the bible, but it shows that not all people look down on the deaf?

Is deafness a defect? Absolutely, is that a problem? Absolutely not. All people are defected, some have emotional issues, other learning issues, or physical disabilities. A helenistic society make look down on physical disabilities, but that doesn't mean all hearing people do? One of the most respected men in the world, Stephen Hawking, is disabled by all standards.

I am 100% free to go completely deaf if I want to, my parents simply left me the option and choice of both worlds. I can't think of anything more noble of parents to do. We went with the deaf league, we went with hearing groups. I honestly am more concerned about society's views on ethnic cultures and women's rights than on deaf treatment, which for me and my family has been swell.

yes I know. My parents are similar too. I didn't know any of such atrocities and injustices till I went out to find out for myself few years ago.

Like I said - when you get older, you'll see. Soon - you're leaving your nest.

 

[shushugah]

You don't have to be Jewish to be Jewish.

And if you are Jewish you can be almost anything.

This is the type of meaningless conversation liberals delight in wasting time over. Being objective or something.

But to a racist the definition is really simple: If you believe in the Jewish religion or you are a descendant of David / Abraham -- Then you qualify.

The Jewish/Jewish community doesn't have a hard time sorting it out.

So let the Jewish person tell you what they are and let it go at that.

I will agree that most jews are not 100% ethnic jews, as most jews intermarried thus looking like the people of their respective nations that they live in, (i.e. Ethiopian jews have black skin, and Italian jews have olive colored skin and so on).

You can argue that anyone can be jewish, which is fine, but just realize, an integral part of Judaism is being part of the community, and if you want to be considered Jewish by your community especially Orthodox or Conservative, you will have to learn the ways of Judaism and have a rabbi put you through a conversion.

I am not sure how this is liberal nonsense?

 

[shushugah]

I can only speak for my parents, not yours or most others really,

I don't think people like GrendelQ are going to dump their daughter or treat them negatively once they enter the "real world". If anything, I think she will be more supportive than most parents.

 

[Jiro]

I can only speak for my parents, not yours or most others really,

I don't think people like GrendelQ are going to dump their daughter or treat them negatively once they enter the "real world". If anything, I think she will be more supportive than most parents.

that's not what we're saying at all. not even close. we're just concerned that it will be same thing all over again - see us. Deaf child growing up into deaf adult where he/she starts to realize his/her actual limitation and difficulty and not having proper tool to deal with it when there is plenty of accommodation service.

ASL Terp Service is usually easiest tool and readily available at your disposal pretty much anywhere but... if you don't know ASL and you prefer CART service.... you're pretty much screwed since CART service is very expensive and it's very difficult to arrange for it.

we just don't want these young deaf kids to end up like us, repeating same complaints 10 years later.

 

[Berry]

I will agree that most jews are not 100% ethnic jews, as most jews intermarried thus looking like the people of their respective nations that they live in, (i.e. Ethiopian jews have black skin, and Italian jews have olive colored skin and so on).

You can argue that anyone can be jewish, which is fine, but just realize, an integral part of Judaism is being part of the community, and if you want to be considered Jewish by your community especially Orthodox or Conservative, you will have to learn the ways of Judaism and have a rabbi put you through a conversion.

I am not sure how this is liberal nonsense?

It is liberal nonsense because you are trying to decide what Jews are, or might be, or how they can be looked at --Which is a mental exercise that is beside the point. You could spend the rest of your life discussing the subject and at the end of that time you would have neither created nor solved and problems. In fact it is an excellent way to avoid dealing with the problem.

If you are NOT prejudice it does NOT matter whether they Jews by blood or by practice, what color they are, or where they came from.

Those who are prejudice are going to act on their definition to the extent of their power to do so. And all your thinking is not going to change their minds.

Those who are Jewish will see themselves the way they want to -- Regardless of what the liberals or the racists have to say about it.

 

[Berry]

It is liberal nonsense because you are trying to decide what Jews are, or might be, or how they can be looked at --Which is a mental exercise that is beside the point. You could spend the rest of your life discussing the subject and at the end of that time you would have neither created nor solved and problems. In fact it is an excellent way to avoid dealing with the problem.

If you are NOT prejudice it does NOT matter whether they Jews by blood or by practice, what color they are, or where they came from.

Those who are prejudice are going to act on their definition to the extent of their power to do so. And all your thinking is not going to change their minds.

Those who are Jewish will see themselves the way they want to -- Regardless of what the liberals or the racists have to say about it.

For those who believe this is off topic I would like to point out it is more of a meta-topic.

Virtually everything said about Jews applies equally to Deaf.

 

[Grummer]

For those who believe this is off topic I would like to point out it is more of a meta-topic.

Virtually everything said about Jews applies equally to Deaf.

I appreciate what you are saying and YES!

 

[Beowulf]

If I ever get thrown into the slammer again, I will become a Jew: they get the best food.

 

[AlleyCat]

Again ???

 

[Beowulf]

Again ???

 

[jillio]

There have been cases of oppression as highlighted by personal experiences of previous posters here, however I would not call this oppression. A kid who has weak muscles and takes therapy to be stronger, despite the pain and sweat, is beneficial not harmful.

I am completely cool with you not wanting to teach oral speech to your kids, that is your choice, lifestyle decision and opinion on the best way to raise a deaf student.

I personally find it very advantageous that despite being born deaf, I have much better speech than most hearing people, and I am a much more effective speaker and communicator. For those same reasons, I know Hebrew, and am learning ASL and Spanish. In the future I wish to know Dutch my mother language as well. My mother speaks 14 languages, and my father speaks over 20 languages. My grandfather is also a holocaust survivor, and the oppression he went through didin't involve linguistics, on the contrary it's a pleasure for him.


I was raised in a pure oralist form, because as many people advised, and I understand you may not like it or agree, they say that if I was taught ASL, I'd prefer it over oral speech, because ASL is indeed much easier to learn. However, more than 1 billion people speak english, not as many speak ASL.

It shows that you were raised in a pure Oralist form. You are "hearing think".

It doesn't matter whether you call it oppression or not. Those that have experienced it call it oppression, and they are the ones to decide, not you.

 

[jillio]

If I ever get thrown into the slammer again, I will become a Jew: they get the best food.

Can't beat that kosher food!

 

[GrendelQ]

It shows that you were raised in a pure Oralist form. You are "hearing think".

It doesn't matter whether you call it oppression or not. Those that have experienced it call it oppression, and they are the ones to decide, not you.

Why are you, a hearing person, telling this deaf person his opinion about his experience doesn't matter?

Isn't he actually the one to decide, being that he is the deaf person who was raised in a pure Oralist form, as you say, and not you, a bystander who hasn't experienced his life?