Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[jillio]

Parents absolutely HAVE TO make the right decision about their child and to do that they have to WORK, STUDY, RESEARCH, ASK 1000 QUESTIONS, etc. However, the proof is out there that there is tooooooooo much apathy.
When I brought my home back in 1973, the most important thing was school district, nothing else was #1 to me. Lost count of the number of PTA meeting, parent-teacher conference, visit with the principal, one-on-one talks between my boy and I, etc. but I was real serious about his education. GUESS WHAT! Doing all that, unknowingly, gave ME an education. Apathy is what is killing us all.

So now you are saying that parents are all apathetic regarding their child's education?

I have met some hearing parents that were ill informed, some that were in denial regarding the effects of deafness on their child's existence, some that were intent on doing everything possible to make their child as close to a hearing child as possible, some that were never able to deal with their own issues regarding their child's deafness....but in all of those, I have yet to meet one hearing parent that was apathetic. Misguided, yes. Apathetic, no.

 

[jillio]

Let us discuss this. Suppose John Doe is a deaf person who just happen to NOT get into a good education system that taught him to read and write. As a minor the fault is on the backs of his parents. So your point, that it was not John's choice is valid and I agree with you. His inability to read and write is a result not of HIS making.
Moving on in his life, lets make it a point that John, as an adult, becomes aware how difficult his life is due to his inability to read and write. However, again, lets make it a point that John in his daily life comes into contact with both deaf and hearing people whom make John aware of public assistance that is FREE to him so he can begin learning to read and write. I know this assistance is there and is free because I deal with it on a weekly basic.
The result is two choices of John, he alone makes the decision. John can either accept the assistance and be on his way toward learning to read and write, there is no time limit nor cost limit to John, so he can take as long as necessary to learn. This would result, for John, a better life possibility sure to his being able to read and write. The fact he is ASL will not now hold him back in life because he is not ASL-only.
The second possibility is John rejects the free assistance and continues his life as ASL-only with the inability to read and write. John, alone, made this choice not to take advantage of the wonderful opportunity available to him.
Yes, this is very sad but some Johns do choice the second.

The "free assistance" you speak of are programs designed for hearing persons, and would serve John no better thant he educational system that failed him.

 

[Bottesini]

So, you are saying that 15% of deaf in the Houston area do not use English in any form...including written? They never read a newspaper, a job description, a store advertisement, closed cap on T.V.?

Where did I say that all deaf or hearing can read and write? However, I think you would be hard pressed to find one that, while perhaps not literate, cannot read or write at all.

I never refered to any deaf as not being oppressed. The deaf have been oppressed for centuries, and are still so today. But the reason for oppression has nothing to do with literacy. It is the oppression that causes illiteracy.

My uncle was one.

 

[GrendelQ]

GrendelQ - you're absolutely right, there is no single one reason why the Deaf kids are not performing up to par which is why general studies and statements are not very informative. But you said "At my daughter's deaf school -- known as being academically rigorous -- a (mostly Deaf) parent group banded together a couple of years ago and successfully protested and changed the curriculum." -

What change? What changes were made to the curriculum?

And you're absolutely right, in that it requires all tools to ensure a Deaf child's success in school, not just some of them.

I'll try to get an outline of the changes. In the late spring they announced that changes were being made, but didn't make details available at the time, aside from mentioning the studies on literacy, formalization of ASL teaching, building of the auditory access programming, and partnerships with Gallaudet and BU.

 

[Bottesini]

The "free assistance" you speak of are programs designed for hearing persons, and would serve John no better thant he educational system that failed him.

It is tailored to deaf.

 

[jillio]

You think that many teachers at oral schools, or at least, at this particular oral school, are not fluent in English?

Whether the teacher is fluent in English is not the issue regarding a deaf child. The issue is whether the child can receive sufficient input to manage to become fluent themselves using spoken language as the language of instruction.

 

[jillio]

But at least with an ASL terp, it is better than just sitting in the room playing guessing games or counting the holes in the ceiling, or memorizing all the presidents since Washington, or analyzing my classmates' style of clothing. That was how I spent my days in school...just either daydreaming or looking to my peers sitting near me to see what page they are on so I wont make a fool out of myself.

So many stories just like yours out there!

 

[jillio]

While I WANT to agree with you, I can't. The reason being is there are John so say "I'm deaf, I'm ASL and I don't need anything else" I'll be the first there are few but on the other hand there is always, and always will be a struggle to get people off this very position. I want to be fair and say that more than half of the deaf who become a client of CRR, when they do their evaluation they are resistance to going beyond ASL. By that I mean the have to be pressured into understanding the n needed to take classes they are resistant to. The fact that they seem to think they can get by with only ASL is much like the hearing who think they can get by with just speaking.
Just like these hearing folks that go on American Idol or You Think You Can Dance and expect to either win our get noticed, they all can't win and they have a false sense of security. For some deaf, they have the same problem, a false sense of security that ASL is all they need.

If that is truly your experience, you must live a very remote and isolated existence. While I know of may Deaf who believe that ASL is all they need for interpersonal communication, (that they don't need to speak), I know of none that believe that ASL is all that is necessary for all of life.

 

[jillio]

I have been wanting to bring this up somewhere for some time and am still not sure where the best place to do so is. But here goes!

I have almost no knowledge of ASL (tried taking it as a beginning night course from my local jr. college twice but made no contacts to use it with and thus have forgotten what little I learned) but my impression is that it is so different from English as to be a different language. Could that be a major reason for having trouble to then learn to read and write English using the grammar that the hearing population expects?

Just in case my background makes any difference. I lost my hearing in the left ear at the age of 5 when an infection affected the nerve rather than cause the type of damage infection usually does (any way that was the conclusion of Dr. John Shea some 40 years later). I am now 68. None was noticed in the right ear until almost that long (about 30 yrs.). I use a hearing aid in the right ear and was told by Dr. Shea that he thought I was able to get at least 40% of a conversation from lip reading (that was still the common term in 1985). Because you can’t lip read on the phone and my hearing in the right ear had decreased enough that I could not depend on sound alone, I have used a TTY and the relay service ever since it became available in the early ’90s. I first came to this site after getting tired of how many repairs I was having with a handheld TTY to use with a cell phone and Google led me here.

No.

 

[jillio]

The best use of the resources of CRR is to make sure the client is capable of using them. In the situation of job placement, it is necessary to not only evaluate the skill and ability that the client has but also educational and communication abilities. CRR has many business partners, some very well known companies, that require a certain level of knowledge and skill for the position and, obviously, CRR want the deaf client to be as prepared as possible. Don't y think I'm hating on the deaf because I do know hearing that do this same thing, the person feels that they just need to show up, fill out an application, maybe take a drug test and go to work for a pay check.
This takes me back almost 40 years ago to where 238 deaf were hired for the Houston post office, within month more than half were gone. Because they were ASL-only, and many were in those days? No, out was because they had no life skills.
Self-discipline? What is that?? Never heard off it! Money management? What is that?? Never heard of it!
So certainly anyone can see the necessity of preparing the whole being which is what CRR strives to do. And certainly anyone can entertains the resistance to all the necessary requirements placed on a client because the deaf AND the hearing would rather take the easy way out. I myself had only the positions in my life, a groundskeeper during high school, a clerk in a bank and 38 years in the U.S.P.S.and I'm comfortable retired now. Yes, YES, YES I do credit and give thanks to having the necessary life skills to survive in this world. And YES, YES, YES I do know that today there are those, both deaf and hearing, that have not been privileged to acquire these necessary life skills (don't get me started on those who have and then wasted their life), for these purple there are FREE resource and opportunities of assistance. Sadly many will ignore them our try them out and then decide "its tooooooooo hard, its tooooooooo much trouble."

Soooo...if they want the deaf client to be as prepared as possible,are they also going into the job site to negotiate for accommodation based on the client's deafness?

 

[StSapphire]

that's different though. you downloaded from the internet and onto your Kindle. you dont read full books on your internet browser, right?

We learn to read and write well from reading books written by people who know how to read and write well. Whether it's in print or on a kindle, no difference.

I have before. I prefer to read on my Kindle (well, Nook now, I upgraded, lol) because the e-Ink screen is easier on my eyes than backlit LCD screens. I read the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy on a backlit PDA web browser when I was in high school. It's not nearly as extreme as you're making it out to be, even if it's not ideal.

 

[StSapphire]

Of course, I'm also well aware that I'm a bit odd when it comes to books - I'll likely end up reading them on anything I can get my hands on, just because I enjoy reading as much as I do, lol.

 

[Bottesini]

Although off topic, I read books on an internet browser all the time. 32 inches of large print!

 

[jillio]

I think that's kind of the point, that Deaf of Deaf are far far more likely to be fluent in a fully accessible language to their child, not that Deaf parents are inherently better at raising Deaf children. If you learn ASL fluently and raise a Deaf child, then you're effectively allowing them to be Deaf of Deaf, even if you're not actually deaf.

So, that sounds like basically the same thing Shel was saying, as far as the actual reasons for it.

The issue is that Deaf of Deaf has acquired a native language on the appropriate developmental schedule, and therefore, have developed the skills of language usage that go along with language acquisition, such as intuited rules of grammar, etc. Those skills can then be applied to the learning of a second language; in this case English. A child that suffers language delays does not acquire the skills that accompany the acquisition of language, and those skills must be taught. There is always a difference in application if language delays have been present. That is why incorporating ASL into a deaf child's environment is so very important. It gives the the opportunity to acquire language instead of learning language.

I commend parents like Grendle who see the need and take the steps to incorporate what is necessary for their child to develop on all levels on age appropriate time schedules.

 

[jillio]

In 13 years in the field, I have consistently seen Deaf children of Deaf parents or of hearing parents who use ASL outperform deaf children who diidnt have ASL exposure when they were young or no ASL being used at home with mastering written English. I cant deny what I have seen in the past 13 years.

I am not just talking about reading fluency but the ability to think critically as well.

And in social skills, as well. Everything goes back to language. The child with language delays will show delays in every area.

 

[jillio]

All deaf schools here in America teach reading/writing using English in the printed form.

Exactly. Which totally negates this "ASL only" supposition.

 

[jillio]

At my daughter's deaf school -- known as being academically rigorous -- a (mostly Deaf) parent group banded together a couple of years ago and successfully protested and changed the curriculum. They had found that their otherwise academically strong kids were graduating with a severely substandard grasp of English, and they were being called on it in college, including at deaf colleges. I saw one senior's final project: her ASL presentation was insightful and articulate while her corresponding paper looked like it was written by a 10 year old, maybe even younger. The grading structure had focused on one on one presentation, with English taught as a secondary language. Think how many hearing kids graduate from US high school having taking years of French or Spanish, yet are still not fluent in those languages. So, you've got the potential for a whole lot of really intelligent and otherwise well-educated kids with low literacy leaving these schools. It's brutal for them to face a world in which literacy is so critical.

Think how many hearing students graduate from high school with less than fluent use of written English.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I'll try to get an outline of the changes. In the late spring they announced that changes were being made, but didn't make details available at the time, aside from mentioning the studies on literacy, formalization of ASL teaching, building of the auditory access programming, and partnerships with Gallaudet and BU.

I would be very interested because I am planning to set up a blog to provide information for parents who are considering sending their kids to the Oral school in my town. The info on the school's site is very carefully contrived to present themselves in a positive light and I want to make sure the parents know what the school is not telling them.

 

[DeafCaroline]

Think how many hearing students graduate from high school with less than fluent use of written English.

So true. I have a lot of "friends" on facebook and I am constantly shaking my head at how badly university graduates write. Even those who graduated with a degree in English or Journalism.

 

[jillio]

You are so right - I read a book a day as a kid and my parents encouraged this greatly. My first words were "my books" - the first time I was allowed to take the city bus alone was to the library. And in fact, my mother never hired babysitters, she would drop me off at the library and pick me up at the end of the day. I loved it. Books are so instrumental in education and both hearing and deaf kids need to stop facebooking and gaming so much and start reading a lot more.

but by destination, what do you mean? Destination to where?

If I may...the destination of reaching adulthood as a deaf individual that is capable, well adjusted, and successful. Deaf kids need to see Deaf adults in this position. If they do not, they get the message that Deaf adults do not hold this position in life.

There are anecdotes of deaf children believing they will be hearing when they grow up because they have never seen a deaf adult. Also, children believing that deaf children die before reaching adulthood for the same reason.