Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

kokonut said:
My comment about genocide back there was to drive a point, if you haven't gotten it by now, about this conundrum of Deaf people wearing cochlear implants. There is no genocide going on as far I'm concerned. Just a term to make it sound scary envisioning the killing fields of Cambodia. It's hyperbole on steroids. I see no evidence of such "genocide" occurring. This was the same sort of knee jerk responses back in the 1970s on how hearing aids would be the death of the Deaf world. Did it happen? No. And certainly, it IS a conundrum. It's a head-scratcher. It is certainly a legitimate question here on my part concerning claims of "genocide" but at the same token we have a bunch of Deaf people wearing cochlear implants.

Tell you what, why don't you take a tour on the campus of Gallaudet University and bring your clipboard with you and make a tally on the number of students who are wearing cochlear implants. You might be surprised at the number you find. And while you're at it, count those who wear hearing aids, too.

Neither cochlear implants nor hearing aids will cause the Deaf world to crumble. They're a resilient bunch. And they continue to grow. Show me where that isn't true.
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So if I accept a person's point of view as valid then I have to prove it is true.

Why?

By the way, how are you going to pay for this foray to Gallaudet?
 
DeafCaroline said:
"Beachgirl - I'm confused. Do you think the oral method worked for you or did not work? You often complain about it and think you were mistreated through it, but here you seem to be saying it did work ok, because you "speak very well and enjoy music," etc. Nevertheless, you don't think it's right for deaf children."

Then we agree. Oralism should not be the ONLY approach for deaf kids. You said I often complain and think I was mistreated (and I WAS mistreated), would I say such things if the oral method ONLY was so successful? (as in excluding ASL, socialization with other Deafs who are non-oral).
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Every Deaf person I have come across in your position says very much the same things. Some forgive their parents as having done the best they could. Others hate their parents for having refused choices that were offered.

The Fact is too many tell the same story for it to be ignored.
 
Berry said:
So if I accept a person's point of view as valid then I have to prove it is true.

Why?

By the way, how are you going to pay for this foray to Gallaudet?
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If you think it's reasonable about the person's POV then that's all there is to it based on your own knowledge and understanding. The point is that it's the other person's end who think it doesn't sound reasonable or valid.

Sigh.....I was hoping you'd do a little research about Gallaudet students with cochlear implants without needing to travel. You can always visit CSUN.

Are you aware at Gallaudet University they have The Cochlear Implant Education Center?
The Cochlear Implant Education Center

Here's a few info for ya.

At Gallaudet University
2007-2008: 65 undergraduate students have a cochlear implant (representing 6 percent of all undergraduates)
24 of them being new students (representing 11% of the new students enrolled)
Gallaudet University

Would say that none of the 65 students are Deaf while at Gallaudet?

For 2009 - 2010, the number of students with cochlear implant were reported at 93 (Cochlear Implant Use. Of all undergraduate, graduate, and ELI students: 5 percent reported that they have cochlear implants).
Gallaudet University

Where's the genocide?
 
Exactly. In fact, reading Journey into the Deaf World really educated me on what it was like for my mother from her point of view and it was very emotional reading it. I don't blame her nor my father and I never will. They only had the very best of intentions for me.

I'm reading this article right now, found it while looking up cochlear implant genocide on google. It's a really interesting read on deaf culture and cochlear implants.

Commoner Sense: Genocide averted
 
StSapphire said:
I think BG is saying she thinks Oral-only should be an option for parents. Not that Oral-only should not be an option. (Double negatives, hooray!)
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No, not exactly. I was just confused about how DC felt about getting oral therapy or training - not quite sure what's the correct word - because she has mentioned several times, just in the short time I've been here, that her speaking is very good, pronounciation is very good, and then in the next breath she says she hated it, it was no way to treat a child, and there seems to be so much anger toward her mother. But there still seemed some undercurrent of pride mixed with "what's the use!" regarding her good speaking skills. I was confused about whether she thought the oral training had helped her or not helped her, overall.

For me, the closest comparable thing was studying languages for my career. I HAD to score "minimum professional fluency" with each language in order to go on to my post. That meant speaking (and reading, always easier) the language correctly, meaning using both correct grammar and correct pronounciation. So after my hearing began to go, I asked for the accommodation of individual classes (versus group classes) and told the instructor(s) that I needed concentrated help with the phonics, and would need, sometimes, exact physical descriptions of how sounds are made, if I wasn't doing them correctly.

That helped tremendously. I could not have done it by listening alone, but with listening, reading, working on phonics, watching the instructor's lips, mouth, throat, etc. and getting the instructor to describe how certain sounds were made, I accomplished it (with French, Serbo-Croatian, Portuguese and Spanish). (French was actually the hardest to pronounce and to comprehend orally, for various reasons). It helps that I do have a good natural aptitude for learning languages, and had studied Latin and Spanish in high school.

I could NOT have done it without hearing aids, certainly. I'm fortunate that with aids, I can hear reasonably normally - normally enough to participate in the hearing world in several different languages. NOT perfectly, but good enough.

Of course I was a motivated, experienced adult, not a child.

I am NOT recommending or advocating oral-only for deaf children, particularly not if they can't benefit from hearing aids or CIs. That seems like an exercise in frustration. Besides that, I'm certainly not putting myself out as any sort of expert in early childhood education.

But is there a place to include speech training in that way, to explain to HOH children (or to children who function as HOH thanks to technology) how to pronounce the sounds of the English language, how to perfect intonation, how to accent syllables correctly, that sort of thing?

That's not the same thing as advocating oral-only; I'm in favor of kids being taught ASL too, when they are young enough to absorb it easily. But I would not be in favor of ASL-only (not that anyone here is advocating that - I don't think...) if a child is capable of hearing well enough to learn spoken language, too. It seems worth the extra effort to me.
 
Deaf children have the rights to ASL (a language that is guaranteed fully accessible to them) and the right to be exposed to the Deaf community instead of suffering all their lives and then find out about those two as adults. This view of deaf children not needing either is very very veyr very stupid and selfish of the audists.
 
No one (including me) in this discussion is saying that (that deaf children don't need ASL and exposure to other deaf kids and adults.)
 
Beach girl said:
No one (including me) in this discussion is saying that (that deaf children don't need ASL and exposure to other deaf kids and adults.)
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It has been said so many times on AD in so many other threads. If i wanted to accuse you, I would have quoted you but I didnt, did I?

However, it seems you kinda suport the medical pointview of deafness. That is understandable because you grew up hearing. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

I am such a strong believer of the holistic approach for children. I do NOT believe in using their weakest sense to acquire language, to gain information, and educational access in the educational setting.
 
shel90 said:
It has been said so many times on AD in so many other threads. If i wanted to accuse you, I would have quoted you but I didnt, did I?

However, it seems you kinda suport the medical pointview of deafness. That is understandable because you grew up hearing. Pls correct me if I am wrong.

I am such a strong believer of the holistic approach for children. I do NOT believe in using their weakest sense to acquire language, to gain information, and educational access in the educational setting.
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The "medical pointview" in that I regard my HAs as tools to permit me to live the life I want? Yeah, I guess so. More of a technological viewpoint than a medical one, per se. I don't think there is any medical cure; I do think there are some tremendous technological advances, and I'll take advantage of what I can.

So do you make any distinction in your mind between deaf children and HOH children? Do you think kids who can hear to some extent, well enough to hear voices and understand oral language, should be helped to speak correctly?
 
Beach girl said:
The "medical pointview" in that I regard my HAs as tools to permit me to live the life I want? Yeah, I guess so. More of a technological viewpoint than a medical one, per se. I don't think there is any medical cure; I do think there are some tremendous technological advances, and I'll take advantage of what I can.

So do you make any distinction in your mind between deaf children and HOH children? Do you think kids who can hear to some extent, well enough to hear voices and understand oral language, should be helped to speak correctly?
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Shel has always been outspoken for both skills for deaf and hoh children.
 
Beach girl said:
The "medical pointview" in that I regard my HAs as tools to permit me to live the life I want? Yeah, I guess so. More of a technological viewpoint than a medical one, per se. I don't think there is any medical cure; I do think there are some tremendous technological advances, and I'll take advantage of what I can.

So do you make any distinction in your mind between deaf children and HOH children? Do you think kids who can hear to some extent, well enough to hear voices and understand oral language, should be helped to speak correctly?
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Medical point of view sees deafness as a defect and that it needs to be fixed.


I am not against giving every deaf/hoh children the opportunity to learn speech skills. I believe in bilingualism..ASL/English instead of just only spoken English only becauseof the risks involved. I have seen enough in my career. It is not worth the risk.
 
BG, I think I see where you're coming from in terms of technology and using it to your advantage. Lord only knows I hated my last phone and I love my new one. The technological difference is indescribable. And cool. And useful. And handy. And everything else.

However, when you're born and raised in a different culture, such as hearing or deaf at birth, there's an entirely different culture, a different way of thinking. I see totally where shel is coming from, it's the same as me. I would not pretend to wear black makeup and understand what it's like to be African American. Im not saying you are doing that, but it's too easy to say you understand when perhaps you might not without realizing it.
 
Beach girl said:
The "medical pointview" in that I regard my HAs as tools to permit me to live the life I want? Yeah, I guess so. More of a technological viewpoint than a medical one, per se. I don't think there is any medical cure; I do think there are some tremendous technological advances, and I'll take advantage of what I can.

So do you make any distinction in your mind between deaf children and HOH children? Do you think kids who can hear to some extent, well enough to hear voices and understand oral language, should be helped to speak correctly?
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no I wouldn't say it's a technological pointview. It's not like a TiVo or Cruise Control for your car. It's a medical pointview because your ear was defective. Doctor fixed it with HA the same way doctor fixed amputee with prosthetic limb or wheelchair.
 
BG - I was angry about growing up oral-only but I was not angry with my mother. She didn't do this to deliberately make me suffer.

Yes, I can speak and yes, I hated the speech training. They're not mutually exclusive. If you grew up the way I did, you would understand immediately. Am I proud that I can speak well? I wish I can be. I used to be because it was all I had to massage my ego as a deaf person in a hearing world. Now, there's no sense of pride attached to it. It's definitely convenient and yet not. Speaking well comes with a curse. You speak well, people think you hear well. Then they get irritated when you're not meeting their expectations that you should be hearing what they're saying with your hearing aids and should be lipreading perfectly. THAT is tiresome.

You asked if there's space for speech training for HOHs, of course. It's called oralism.
 
What kind of phone do you have, and why do you love it? (Sorry for the digression - I'd lilke to have a phone I'm happier with, still on the search.)

(Slips; that question is for Alleycat.)

I never said or intended to imply that I perfectly understand the situation of those who are deaf from birth or early childhood. I've done my best to be honest about my own hearing loss and what I do about it, what my experiences have been, and so forth.

I'm sure there are some areas of overlap between us, though. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

I stumbled on this site originally because I was looking for technical info on phones, TVs, and such, and on reviews of hearing aids. So I had that technical viewpoint from the start.
 
DeafCaroline said:
BG - I was angry about growing up oral-only but I was not angry with my mother. She didn't do this to deliberately make me suffer.

Yes, I can speak and yes, I hated the speech training. They're not mutually exclusive. If you grew up the way I did, you would understand immediately. Am I proud that I can speak well? I wish I can be. I used to be because it was all I had to massage my ego as a deaf person in a hearing world. Now, there's no sense of pride attached to it. It's definitely convenient and yet not. Speaking well comes with a curse. You speak well, people think you hear well. Then they get irritated when you're not meeting their expectations that you should be hearing what they're saying with your hearing aids and should be lipreading perfectly. THAT is tiresome.

You asked if there's space for speech training for HOHs, of course. It's called oralism.
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Oh wow! I had never thought of it like that! that was my big problem. I used to ahve such a BIG ego about being able to speak so good that I alienated the Phoenix Deaf community with my audist attitudes by thinking that I was so better than them because I could speak so well. Well, it turned out that they had it so much better than I did in life.
 
DeafCaroline said:
BG - I was angry about growing up oral-only but I was not angry with my mother. She didn't do this to deliberately make me suffer.

Yes, I can speak and yes, I hated the speech training. They're not mutually exclusive. If you grew up the way I did, you would understand immediately. Am I proud that I can speak well? I wish I can be. I used to be because it was all I had to massage my ego as a deaf person in a hearing world. Now, there's no sense of pride attached to it. It's definitely convenient and yet not. Speaking well comes with a curse. You speak well, people think you hear well. Then they get irritated when you're not meeting their expectations that you should be hearing what they're saying with your hearing aids and should be lipreading perfectly. THAT is tiresome.

You asked if there's space for speech training for HOHs, of course. It's called oralism.
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And in your view, that's a bad thing?
 
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