Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

Berry: as your ideological supposition re: society bifurcated into 2 discrete "entities" termed- hearing & deaf overlooks all persons who became deaf after birth.

Nice of you to tell me what my ideological supposition is.

Now I don't have to bother to figure it out for myself.

And it is so simple. A 5 year old could come up with it.

You know I'd have sworn I was a little smarter than that.
 
I think sometime it's also a question of severe hearing loss vs profound's. It does and can make a difference at times. There were times I could see the difference between those having just a severe loss as opposed to those having a profound's.
 
Oh, so apparently because I didn't have a CI, I don't have the same results as a child who does? Even though I have perfect English, and speak perfect? Okay. Whatever you say. (And, there's MANY of us -- probably more than not -- on this forum that will attest to the same for themselves.)

Assuming you were prelingually deaf and did not have access to speech sounds with a hearing aid (which, if that's not the case, then I don't think Koko was referring to you with his comments about CI), I think he was saying that your developmental response to getting a CI would be extremely different if you were implanted before you were four years old, than your response would be to getting a CI after you were four years old. For the same sort of reasons that a baby/child under four who is raised in an ASL-immersed environment will use and understand ASL much more easily than someone who learns ASL after they're four.

Which, as far as the actual science behind language development and acquisition goes, sounds fairly accurate. As long as you're not entirely reliant upon the breakable technology as your only source of communication (by equally using sign and spoken language, rather than trying to force oralism only) then I don't think anyone really has an issue with that.

Hard to believe. I am bilateral deaf since December 20,2006. I became "suitable for consideration" of getting a Cochlear Implant which OHIP ( Ontario Health Insurance Plan) covered the entire cost. Hospital care, surgeon fees, audi services/mapping, Internal/external "hardware". Cost then-2007 was $55,000.00 CDN.

I have mentioned before Sunnybrook/Toronto has implanted 850 persons over a 19 year period with the rejection rate for one reason or other at 60%. I am one of the 850.

The fact remains- I am deaf with a Cochlear Implant-why this is a problem is beyond me.

It's not. You were late deafened, not prelingually deaf (that is, you were not "born deaf"). The fact that you experienced sound and then lost that experience makes your "silence" that you experience fundamentally different from someone who was prelingually deaf or otherwise hasn't experienced sound.

Do you understand this fundamental difference? Think of it this way - if there were some people who were born psychic (ie able to see or hear other peoples' thoughts) and there were also devices which you could have injected into your skull to give you the same psychic abilities, do you understand that those people who were born with psychic abilities and then lost them would not view their lack of psychic abilities the same way as someone who was born without psychic abilities?

Not so. Unless you are saying a Deaf person cannot or should not wear a cochlear implant? The two are not mutually exclusive.

Nobody is saying that except for drphil's delusions of "Deaf militants". Some people might be saying that a prelingually deaf child shouldn't be implanted extremely early, but nobody at all is saying that no Deaf person should get/have one.
 
Back from Alice in Deafland, I talk about my Implantation because it is REAL. The operation happened almost 4 years ago-July 12, 2007 Sunnybrook/Toronto. No I didn't consult the so-called deaf community here in Toronto even though I knew that I would become deaf after losing all hearing in Right ear-Feb 19/92. ( That is way I started intro ASL in 1996).
I doesn't impact on me what anyone else has/might do in similar circumstances as duly noted before here in Alldeaf.com. Your choice. I joined here almost a year ago.

As for my alleged delusions re deaf militants. Suggest the article in Deaf Canada Today- December 1998-Heather Marsden re Deaf militants. Note: from Cdn Hearing Society/Toronto Hearing Help classes.The entire paper was handed out. I have taken a few classes from 1992 to 2007.
Right-prescient-discussions in Alldeaf.com!

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07
 
drphil - did anyone here on AD give you a hard time for getting CIs?

Deaf's opposition to CIs is in relation to implantation of babies and kids then raising them in oralism only. That's the issue we have, not full grown late-deafened adults getting CIs. I honestly cannot remember anyone here being militant against you for implanting yourself.

So-called deaf community in Toronto? you mean, they weren't really deaf? just pretending?
 
Assuming you were prelingually deaf and did not have access to speech sounds with a hearing aid (which, if that's not the case, then I don't think Koko was referring to you with his comments about CI), I think he was saying that your developmental response to getting a CI would be extremely different if you were implanted before you were four years old, than your response would be to getting a CI after you were four years old. For the same sort of reasons that a baby/child under four who is raised in an ASL-immersed environment will use and understand ASL much more easily than someone who learns ASL after they're four.

My comment you're referring to was in general and not directed at anyone.

Which, as far as the actual science behind language development and acquisition goes, sounds fairly accurate. As long as you're not entirely reliant upon the breakable technology as your only source of communication (by equally using sign and spoken language, rather than trying to force oralism only) then I don't think anyone really has an issue with that.

They may have issues with that but ultimately parents do make the decision. With CI it's not just "oralism" only but oral and aural developments where one actually benefits from audition. Best people can do is provide parents the needed information.

It's not. You were late deafened, not prelingually deaf (that is, you were not "born deaf"). The fact that you experienced sound and then lost that experience makes your "silence" that you experience fundamentally different from someone who was prelingually deaf or otherwise hasn't experienced sound.

Do you understand this fundamental difference? Think of it this way - if there were some people who were born psychic (ie able to see or hear other peoples' thoughts) and there were also devices which you could have injected into your skull to give you the same psychic abilities, do you understand that those people who were born with psychic abilities and then lost them would not view their lack of psychic abilities the same way as someone who was born without psychic abilities?

Nobody is saying that except for drphil's delusions of "Deaf militants". Some people might be saying that a prelingually deaf child shouldn't be implanted extremely early, but nobody at all is saying that no Deaf person should get/have one.

Berry said "non sequitur" in response to what I said that there are Deaf people who do wear cochlear implants. He certainly appears to be saying the two are not mutually compatible, hence, does not follow. This is no different from the fact that there are Deaf people who do wear hearing aids. Same for CI although not in great numbers but there are some..
..
 
Back from Alice in Deafland, I talk about my Implantation because it is REAL. The operation happened almost 4 years ago-July 12, 2007 Sunnybrook/Toronto. No I didn't consult the so-called deaf community here in Toronto even though I knew that I would become deaf after losing all hearing in Right ear-Feb 19/92. ( That is way I started intro ASL in 1996).
I doesn't impact on me what anyone else has/might do in similar circumstances as duly noted before here in Alldeaf.com. Your choice. I joined here almost a year ago.

As for my alleged delusions re deaf militants. Suggest the article in Deaf Canada Today- December 1998-Heather Marsden re Deaf militants. Note: from Cdn Hearing Society/Toronto Hearing Help classes.The entire paper was handed out. I have taken a few classes from 1992 to 2007.
Right-prescient-discussions in Alldeaf.com!

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Uh... I think you've got something mixed up with dates.

And again, it was explained to you why what you thought were "deaf militants attacking your choice" was actually nothing of the sort. If you choose to ignore that, then you're arguing from ignorance, and are wrong.
 
Uh... I think you've got something mixed up with dates.

And again, it was explained to you why what you thought were "deaf militants attacking your choice" was actually nothing of the sort. If you choose to ignore that, then you're arguing from ignorance, and are wrong.

July 07 is the surgery date, the other Aug 07 is the date they activated it.
 
No idea. Can't find anything that states she is deaf, just that she's a database administrator for a deaf women's org. And what publications I did find, she seems to be very pro- deaf community, recognizing their needs and advocating for their rights on their behalf. Can't find a single reference to her writing about anything relating to "Deaf Militants". I am going to email her and ask her.
 
My comment you're referring to was in general and not directed at anyone.

Huh?

They may have issues with that but ultimately parents do make the decision. With CI it's not just "oralism" only but oral and aural developments where one actually benefits from audition. Best people can do is provide parents the needed information.

As far as I was aware, the concept of "oralism" doesn't refer exclusively to teaching speech, but to the focus on the usage of sound for communication exclusively, which covers both oral and aural, and ignores (or even represses) other simultaneous or alternative methods of communication, such as sign.

Berry said "non sequitur" in response to what I said that there are Deaf people who do wear cochlear implants. He certainly appears to be saying the two are not mutually compatible, hence, does not follow. This is no different from the fact that there are Deaf people who do wear hearing aids. Same for CI although not in great numbers but there are some.

He said that because your response didn't address anything in his post. He didn't say anything to the effect that you cannot be Deaf and have a CI. He said that using a CI in the method that they occasionally are used (as tools to "cure" deafness and make the user "Hearing") is anti-Deaf.
 
He's being obtuse on purpose. No point in arguing with him. What you're telling him, has been said to him a thousand times in a thousand different ways and he still evidently seem incapable of understanding what our point is. Like drphil. It's intentional "misinterpretation" on his part.
 
Huh?
As far as I was aware, the concept of "oralism" doesn't refer exclusively to teaching speech, but to the focus on the usage of sound for communication exclusively, which covers both oral and aural, and ignores (or even represses) other simultaneous or alternative methods of communication, such as sign.

To me, the word "oralism" is vague at times since sometimes it means "oral only" but not about the combination of aural and oral opproaches. Which is why I say Auditory-Oral method just to make myself clear.

He said that because your response didn't address anything in his post. He didn't say anything to the effect that you cannot be Deaf and have a CI. He said that using a CI in the method that they occasionally are used (as tools to "cure" deafness and make the user "Hearing") is anti-Deaf.

My point was in reference to his quote "Looked at from this viewpoint the simple fact is yes! The Cochlear Implant is an instrument of genocide to the Deaf Community." Agreed. I didn't make myself clear when I said, "Yet, there are Deaf people who wear cochlear implants." In other words, there's a bit of a conundrum about the genocide part when there are, in fact, Deaf people with both cochlear implants and hearing aids.
http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-ou...us-avoid-becoming-hearing-12.html#post1850968

..
 
To me, the word "oralism" is vague at times since sometimes it means "oral only" but not about the combination of aural and oral opproaches. Which is why I say Auditory-Oral method just to make myself clear.

Ah, I thought the usage on these forums in general was quite clear. I didn't know there were any people who tried to teach an "oral-only" method without trying to use or provide access to aural aspects as well. From what I've read and seen of almost everyone talking about it, there is no difference between your "Auditory-Oral" and "Oral-only" and "oralism", since the distinction is almost always made between the focus on sound-based communication, rather than visual/manual communication (ie sign), generally with a strong implication of focusing on sound-based to the detriment is visual-based communication (ie oral-only vs bi-bi).

You just now is literally the first time I've seen anyone on these forums talking about Oralism/Oral-only meaning "ignoring any available auditory input".
 
He's being obtuse on purpose. No point in arguing with him. What you're telling him, has been said to him a thousand times in a thousand different ways and he still evidently seem incapable of understanding what our point is. Like drphil. It's intentional "misinterpretation" on his part.

Deafcaroline, instead of being snotty about it ever consider the fact that people do have opinions and sometimes responses to comments or how one expresses him/herself may become unclear to others, or that others may come in with a preconceived bias against a person (for whatever reason) and whatever he or she says will instantly conjure up thoughts of conspiracy? After all this is a forum and people express themselves differently. I have my own perspectives based on my knowledge, experience and understanding. I do see people points yet I see things differently, and so I respond. You and others also see things differently as well. No point in bemoaning the differences.
 
Ah, I thought the usage on these forums in general was quite clear. I didn't know there were any people who tried to teach an "oral-only" method without trying to use or provide access to aural aspects as well. From what I've read and seen of almost everyone talking about it, there is no difference between your "Auditory-Oral" and "Oral-only" and "oralism", since the distinction is almost always made between the focus on sound-based communication, rather than visual/manual communication (ie sign), generally with a strong implication of focusing on sound-based to the detriment is visual-based communication (ie oral-only vs bi-bi).

You just now is literally the first time I've seen anyone on these forums talking about Oralism/Oral-only meaning "ignoring any available auditory input".

To me, the word "oralism" has always been vague in this forum. It's a word that was used back in the days when hearing aids didn't exist. Audition wasn't just possible for those with worse hearing loss.
 
I think that's an important distinction. Back in the days when AG Bell was alive,
"oralism" really meant something very different than it does today. Those children were being forced into something for which they had no auditory support; today's kids (and adults) with HAs and/or CIs have a very different experience, as they can hear (not as a normal person does, I agree, but still, they DO hear), and thus have the aural support for oral production.
 
I think that's an important distinction. Back in the days when AG Bell was alive,
"oralism" really meant something very different than it does today. Those children were being forced into something for which they had no auditory support; today's kids (and adults) with HAs and/or CIs have a very different experience, as they can hear (not as a normal person does, I agree, but still, they DO hear), and thus have the aural support for oral production.

And? Was there something wrong with the children in the old days?
 
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