Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[StSapphire]

I know there has to be, because one of the teachers who subbed for my ASL class (his major was linguistics, with a minor in ASL interpreting) was able to deconstruct signs and explain their construction, I just wasn't aware of any resources on that available.

 

[DeafCaroline]

I know there has to be, because one of the teachers who subbed for my ASL class (his major was linguistics, with a minor in ASL interpreting) was able to deconstruct signs and explain their construction, I just wasn't aware of any resources on that available.

When you say deconstruct, you mean he could deconstruct signs modified by classifiers?

 

[StSapphire]

When you say deconstruct, you mean he could deconstruct signs modified by classifiers?

No, like explaining the underlying handshapes and motions that make up a sign. I can't think of any specific one offhand because this was several months ago. One of the simplest examples I can remember was him explaining the difference between verbs and nouns (ie verbs are generally a double-tap and the noun associated is a single-tap, or vice versa, I can't remember which offhand).

 

[DeafCaroline]

Ah, gotcha.

 

[StSapphire]

Yeah, this was well before we learned anything about classifiers (which I still don't understand all that well, lol)

 

[KristinaB]

No, like explaining the underlying handshapes and motions that make up a sign. I can't think of any specific one offhand because this was several months ago. One of the simplest examples I can remember was him explaining the difference between verbs and nouns (ie verbs are generally a double-tap and the noun associated is a single-tap, or vice versa, I can't remember which offhand).

Do you mean like the sign for "coffee" where it is just right "S" hand over left "S" hand in a circular motion? We were told in my ASL class that the sign originated from the old style coffee grinders and just brought in. Is that like you are talking about? Or am I off-base in my comprehension?

 

[KristinaB]

No, like explaining the underlying handshapes and motions that make up a sign. I can't think of any specific one offhand because this was several months ago. One of the simplest examples I can remember was him explaining the difference between verbs and nouns (ie verbs are generally a double-tap and the noun associated is a single-tap, or vice versa, I can't remember which offhand).

Oh, verbs I thought were single and nouns double. We used the reminder of "nouns are like the sign for "name", with name it's a double so all nouns are double and verbs are single."

 

[KristinaB]

Yeah, this was well before we learned anything about classifiers (which I still don't understand all that well, lol)

I have a handy sheet for classifiers, but it's hard to really understand. If you want, I could scan and send it to you. PM me and I can email it if you want.

 

[StSapphire]

Do you mean like the sign for "coffee" where it is just right "S" hand over left "S" hand in a circular motion? We were told in my ASL class that the sign originated from the old style coffee grinders and just brought in. Is that like you are talking about? Or am I off-base in my comprehension?

We learned some things like that, too, though that's a bit less likely to help you understand or learn new signs from existing linguistic rules, which is more what I was talking about.

In English, that'd be things like prefixes, suffixes, and similar things.

 

[StSapphire]

Oh, verbs I thought were single and nouns double. We used the reminder of "nouns are like the sign for "name", with name it's a double so all nouns are double and verbs are single."

Could be, I'm bad at remembering, lol.

 

[StSapphire]

I have a handy sheet for classifiers, but it's hard to really understand. If you want, I could scan and send it to you. PM me and I can email it if you want.

Sure, thanks! I'll send a PM with my email.

 

[Beach girl]

I'm wondering if ASL is learned in something of the same way that students of non-phonetic languages learn. For instance, English, Spanish, Italian, other European languages, are all phonetic languages. Once you learn the phonetic rules, you can sound out most words (although English complicates things with having so many spellings for the same sound).

Chinese is not phonetic. Small children spend hours practicing and memorizing the characters that make up the language. There is no way to know how a word is pronounced just by looking at the characters.

Is ASL something like that? Each word has its sign, but you have to memorize the signs, since there is no way to figure out what a sign means by its shape alone?

 

[dogmom]

my understanding is - think about concepts and "big picture" - not literally "English-to-ASL" the same way you have "English-to-Spanish". ASL is a visual-spatial language, where the way one does things with their movements and their face conveys grammar, tone, additional meanings. A handshape is one aspect of a sign. Think beyond a linear-based spoken language.

 

[Berry]

That's what I'm really liking about ASL too, one sign could have multiple meanings depending on how you sign it. Or it could have the same meaning but different intonations. And it allows you to really expand the meaning of them without having to use so many words. In english, they could take a paragraph to describe a girl, we could do it with just pale, thin, wavy brown hair, shy signs and tell a whole page about her. And in that sense, sign language is far more sophisticated than any other language. One could say so much in so few words. Ernest Hemingway would be envious

Watched youtube videos of hearing ASL students and noticed that they really don't get how we see things with our eyes, how visual we are. As jillio pointed out in another thread, they were very literal. They didn't grow up with families signing or gesturing and making facial expressions so their signing is very one-dimensional and flat.

My mother taught me that words get in the way. She said, "The white man sees a tree. And when he sees this tree for the first time he sees its shape, and smells its scent, and looks at the green and the branches, the shape at the top and the shape of the bottom and the texture of the trunk. Then someone tells the white man, 'That is a pine tree.' And forever after he is never able to see that tree or any tree like it again. From that second on every time he sees that kind of a tree he thinks 'Pine tree' and never, the rest of his life, is ever able to see the tree again."

 

[Berry]

Whaaaat? You? Mister (I think you're male, right?) Semantics appreciates debates over concepts rather than silly definitions of words?

If you have any doubts about my gender you can get a good look at me here.
YouTube - ‪PathOfTheHappySpirit's Channel‬‏ I want to do more of these as they are a lot of fun but I have been insanely busy for a while now.

All kidding aside, I agree entirely, though I'm not knowledgeable enough to have seen that benefit myself from ASL specifically yet, but since you're more of a native speaker than me, I'll assume you're right, which is awesome.

.

I have not been totally happy with youtube and while I want to continue to add more Aesop's fables I am thinking about doing something different on Blip.TV. Not trying to "teach" ASL but talking about it. What you learn you learn and what you think about is more beneficial. If you enjoy yourself along the way that is the best.

 

[Berry]

A minor quibble to the above-250. If signs have "multiple meanings" how does determine which one that the sender intends?
As the assertion that "sign language is more sophisticated than other language" doesn't appear to resonate with very many people at all. Is this widely known?
How does that assertion fit with teaching "person with learning disabilities" ASL?
Is this one of the "gnostic values of deafhood"?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

The word knot has about 30 different meanings.

If that does not confuse you why should ASL confuse us?

As for Sophisticated: The sophistication of ASL was one of the key factors in Stokoe's convincing other linguists to accept it as a genuine language.

Read the history.

 

[Berry]

Interesting, I'd be very interested to learn about the morphology and phonetics of ASL. Would probably be helpful for learning, in addition to being interesting in and of itself.

That's something I wondered about too. In written languages, you can sound out a word if you know the rules for phonetics in that language. I was wondering how that would happen in ASL.

There are threads here sometimes that ask "How do you sign such-and-such?" or "what does this sign mean?" that come from Deaf people who use sign, so I assumed it was not that easy to construct signs for certain concepts or to decipher unfamiliar signs.

The information is out there, but it takes time and money.

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[Berry]

I'm wondering if ASL is learned in something of the same way that students of non-phonetic languages learn. For instance, English, Spanish, Italian, other European languages, are all phonetic languages. Once you learn the phonetic rules, you can sound out most words (although English complicates things with having so many spellings for the same sound).

Chinese is not phonetic. Small children spend hours practicing and memorizing the characters that make up the language. There is no way to know how a word is pronounced just by looking at the characters.

Is ASL something like that? Each word has its sign, but you have to memorize the signs, since there is no way to figure out what a sign means by its shape alone?

Forget words. Think of them as handy names for signs. Often the most used meaning is the "gloss". When learning ASL your best friend is not the dictionary -- It is the thesaurus.

You get the "feel" of a sign by studying its synonyms. And as many signs are their own antonyms it is a good idea to study them as well.

 

[jillio]

A minor quibble to the above-250. If signs have "multiple meanings" how does determine which one that the sender intends?
As the assertion that "sign language is more sophisticated than other language" doesn't appear to resonate with very many people at all. Is this widely known?
How does that assertion fit with teaching "person with learning disabilities" ASL?
Is this one of the "gnostic values of deafhood"?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Words have multiple meanings. How do you determine the message the speaker is giving?:roll:

Where are these "many people" you refer to? Your limited exposure to late deafened people subscribing to the medical definition of deafness?

ASL is not a teaching methodology, any more than English is a teaching methodology.

What are the "gnostic values of deafhood"? Something you just made up?

Really, dr.phil, do you even think at all before you post some of the absurd questions? I swear you know less about these issues than you did a month ago if your questions are any indication. You are loosing knowledge quicker than you are gaining it.

 

[jillio]

The reason I said ASL is very sophisticated is because of what I learned in my creative writing classes in high school and university. the mark of a good writer is one who can say the most using as few words as possible. Typical assignments would consist of long convoluted pieces of fiction that we had to rewrite and trim down to as few words as possible while still painting the exact same story.
ASL needs even less words to convey complex ideas and concepts.

You are correct in your description.ASL is, indeed, a very sophisticated language.