Do we have a challenge ahead of us to avoid becoming Hearing?

[Berry]

Deaf people have ears.

Makes them very hard to spot. Most Black people look like black people, Most Mexican people look like Mexican people, and so on and so on. Deaf people look like everybody.

This was an advantage 60 years ago when I was young and Deaf peopleTracktenberg lived in social pockets called Deaf World. Out of their pocket they were invisible and worked to stay that way. For example they never signed in public. No one thought about equal rights for Deaf people, and the war to give Black people equal rights was just beginning.

Things change. Having ears was an advantage then. It was easy to hide.

Now it is a disadvantage. It makes it easier for Hearies to ignore Deaf people. Pretend like they don't exist. It also makes it difficult to discover children who are raised completely oral unless they have some type of noticeable hearing device. And it makes it easier for Hearie parents to hide the deafness of their child from both hearies and Deaf.

What is needed is an intervention program. A system where when an audiologist discovers a person who meets certain criteria they are required to call in a support group consisting primarily of Deaf people who will explain to them that they have not lost their hearing, they have gained an opportunity to create a rich fulfilling life as a Deaf person.

"Certain criteria"? Exactly what would they be?

I'm hearing and you are more Hearing than I am, so that is not a decision you and I should make, is it?

Perhaps explain it some more...and especially the last paragraph I'm referring to in your previous post. I'm perhaps thinking one thing than what you are attempting to explain.

I say intervention program because so often the very existence of the Deaf community is totally unknown to either the late deafened adult or the parents of a deaf child. I would think some type of a non profit organization with both paid and volunteer help who make themselves known and are ready to assist with the transition into the Deaf World.

I say audiologist because in the hearing world that is where everything starts. They are the "expert" who says if a person is deaf, HOH, HI, or whatever terminology they currently use. When they say it then to the hearing person and to the law it is so.

I say primarily Deaf people because without Deaf people there the whole operation loses its meaning. However I think it would be best if at least one person were hearing because it would give the newly deafened, or the parent, a feeling of having a bridge between the two worlds.

I believe it would have to be written into the law or many, if not most, audiologists would not call the Deaf in. The audiologist often tends to believe themselves the only knowledgeable expert in the field.

I say "certain criteria" because without criteria any rule becomes unenforceable in the hearing world and I did not specify what criteria because I do not feel competent or qualified to do so. I think this would best be defined by Deaf people.

I say "Explain to them that they have not lost their hearing but rather have gained an opportunity..." because this is true across the board.

If the economy collapses, while everyone is crying about the misfortunes of the world Donald Trump will find a way to earn more money.

If you throw Ghandi into solitary confinement instead of going insane he will find spiritual enlightenment

If you throw Trachtenberg into a concentration camp he will develop a speed system for mathematics.

Once you realize that every setback, every problem, every situation, gives you an opportunity of some kind, and always gives you the opportunity to become a better you -- Then there are ONLY opportunities and every thing and any thing is possible.

 

[jillio]

To me, assimilation means to shed your culture, language, etc to fit into another group. Integration would be to be part of another group while keeping your own language and culture intact.

You know what I mean? Like there are cultural communities, i.e. "Chinatown", "Little Italy" - they fit into the fabric of a tolerant multi-cultural society. Would be great if the Deaf could also be viewed as a culture that deserves recognition and be left intact while still regarded as part of society as a whole.

That is a concise and very accurate description of the difference between assimilation and integration.

 

[jillio]

And it is all for the "best interests" of the child. I still am not getting it.

Sadly, nor do I, shel, nor do I. Denial rarely responds to pointing out reality.:roll:

 

[jillio]

That's the downside of individualism. Great points.

But not sure what you mean with free licence to paternalism? Do you mean traditional western machismo values? Or that mixing paternalism with individualism have some unwanted effects? Just curious, because I have the idea that machismo values have little with suppression of deaf people to do. One reason is probably because I'm a male myself The second reason is that of all the places I've travelled in the world, the places where I've experienced deafness as a minor issue and welcomed as an equal, have been in parts of middle east, in spite of those societies beeing very paternalistic.

Not necessarily machismo, but of the parental attitude, for example, of "I am more advanced than you, so I know what is best for you"; which generally translates into "what is better for me."

 

[jillio]

I'm hearing and you are more Hearing than I am, so that is not a decision you and I should make, is it?

Quite true. However, the criteria for a culture (Deaf or any other) to be identified as a separate and existing culture is the same across the board. It is an anthropological concept. Deaf Culture meets those criteria.

I would refer kokonut to some introductory cultural anthropology texts.

 

[jillio]

Jillio, I would call it dominantion rather than paternalism. Hearing people have domination over Deaf people. I understand the paternalism reference because male domination exists. I mean that men control most of the resources, like power, money, lucrative jobs, etc. So, the most dominant people in our society are men who are WASP, able-bodied, hearing, etc. You know, the top 1-2% who have most of the wealth.

You are correct. In reality, it is domination. However, I used paternalism, because it is often an unrecognized need to dominate that governs the behavior. Or perhaps, I should say, a denied need...

 

[sallylou]

I don't cut any slack for unrecognized needs. The effect on the subordinate person is still the same. Too harsh?

 

[jillio]

I don't cut any slack for unrecognized needs. The effect on the subordinate person is still the same. Too harsh?

You are absolutely correct, the effect is the same. I think the difference is nothing more than us being educated in different schools of thought...law vs psychology. I tell my clients all the time..."it may be a reason, but it is not an excuse". When it all comes down to it, something has to be changed to decrease the effect.

 

[Berry]

One thing I like about ASL. It gets you to thinking about the connectedness of words and concepts. Englihs users argue for hours over small, sometimes minute, even petty differences in the definition, implication, connotation, denotation, etc of different words.

Paternalism, domination, control, is really just one concept, one sign.

 

[DeafCaroline]

One thing I like about ASL. It gets you to thinking about the connectedness of words and concepts. Englihs users argue for hours over small, sometimes minute, even petty differences in the definition, implication, connotation, denotation, etc of different words.

Paternalism, domination, control, is really just one concept, one sign.

That's what I'm really liking about ASL too, one sign could have multiple meanings depending on how you sign it. Or it could have the same meaning but different intonations. And it allows you to really expand the meaning of them without having to use so many words. In english, they could take a paragraph to describe a girl, we could do it with just pale, thin, wavy brown hair, shy signs and tell a whole page about her. And in that sense, sign language is far more sophisticated than any other language. One could say so much in so few words. Ernest Hemingway would be envious

Watched youtube videos of hearing ASL students and noticed that they really don't get how we see things with our eyes, how visual we are. As jillio pointed out in another thread, they were very literal. They didn't grow up with families signing or gesturing and making facial expressions so their signing is very one-dimensional and flat.

 

[StSapphire]

One thing I like about ASL. It gets you to thinking about the connectedness of words and concepts. Englihs users argue for hours over small, sometimes minute, even petty differences in the definition, implication, connotation, denotation, etc of different words.

Paternalism, domination, control, is really just one concept, one sign.

Whaaaat? You? Mister (I think you're male, right?) Semantics appreciates debates over concepts rather than silly definitions of words?

All kidding aside, I agree entirely, though I'm not knowledgeable enough to have seen that benefit myself from ASL specifically yet, but since you're more of a native speaker than me, I'll assume you're right, which is awesome.

That's what I'm really liking about ASL too, one sign could have multiple meanings depending on how you sign it. Or it could have the same meaning but different intonations. And it allows you to really expand the meaning of them without having to use so many words. In english, they could take a paragraph to describe a girl, we could do it with just pale, thin, wavy brown hair, shy signs and tell a whole page about her. And in that sense, sign language is far more sophisticated than any other language. One could say so much in so few words. Ernest Hemingway would be envious

Watched youtube videos of hearing ASL students and noticed that they really don't get how we see things with our eyes, how visual we are. As jillio pointed out in another thread, they were very literal. They didn't grow up with families signing or gesturing and making facial expressions so their signing is very one-dimensional and flat.

I've noticed that with my lessons, too. I'm naturally more inclined to be more expressive when I'm talking with someone, so it's somewhat easier for me than others, but you can clearly tell, especially for some of the more shy/easily embarrassed people in the class (like my girlfriend, lol) that the whole concept of being expressive is difficult. I think it might have something to do with intro/extroversion.

 

[drphil]

A minor quibble to the above-250. If signs have "multiple meanings" how does determine which one that the sender intends?
As the assertion that "sign language is more sophisticated than other language" doesn't appear to resonate with very many people at all. Is this widely known?
How does that assertion fit with teaching "person with learning disabilities" ASL?
Is this one of the "gnostic values of deafhood"?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[DeafCaroline]

drphil - out of curiosity, do you sign? Or are you familiar with ASL? One who is fluent in ASL would know the intended meaning.

It would not resonate with who exactly? Deaf? Hearing?

And I am not understanding what you're saying by "how does that assertion fit with teaching "person with learning disabilities" ASL? Huh? Most people with learning disabilities have trouble with reading the written word, not with trouble hearing or understanding the spoken word or with signing.

 

[StSapphire]

A minor quibble to the above-250. If signs have "multiple meanings" how does determine which one that the sender intends?
As the assertion that "sign language is more sophisticated than other language" doesn't appear to resonate with very many people at all. Is this widely known?
How does that assertion fit with teaching "person with learning disabilities" ASL?
Is this one of the "gnostic values of deafhood"?

It's all context. You know the meaning intended by the rest of the context of the conversation, the body language and facial expressions of the "sender".

As for "sophistication", that's obviously hard to substantiate (since as far as I know, there's no way to measure sophistication or complexity of a language) but the reason that would not be widely known is because most hearing people either know nothing at all about ASL and what they do know is often wrong (such as that it's nothing more than pantomiming). Users who are fluent in ASL are well aware that it's far more complex than non-fluent people.

drphil - out of curiosity, do you sign? Or are you familiar with ASL? One who is fluent in ASL would know the intended meaning.

He's not. He's entirely uninterested in the Deaf community entirely (and can often be seen questioning their very existence). He's basically a culturally Hearing physically deaf individual.

 

[DeafCaroline]

The reason I said ASL is very sophisticated is because of what I learned in my creative writing classes in high school and university. the mark of a good writer is one who can say the most using as few words as possible. Typical assignments would consist of long convoluted pieces of fiction that we had to rewrite and trim down to as few words as possible while still painting the exact same story.
ASL needs even less words to convey complex ideas and concepts.

 

[DeafCaroline]

It's all context. You know the meaning intended by the rest of the context of the conversation, the body language and facial expressions of the "sender"....

He's not. He's entirely uninterested in the Deaf community entirely (and can often be seen questioning their very existence). He's basically a culturally Hearing physically deaf individual.

Yeah, I noticed.

 

[drphil]

DeafCaroline: Do I sign-no just knows fingerspelling. I tried learning Intro ASL way back in 1996/97 and decided to discontinue. In the ASL classes I took-there was no mentioned of ASL being "sophisticated".

As for my original sentence re "alleged sophistication of ASL" people was reference to everyone-people..

As for your assertion re "person with learning disabilities" no comment if "they can easily learn ASL". Prior discussion in another thread"suggests- otherwise".

I believe I fit was IS called "oral deaf-ACTUAL".( not self defined "cultural" even having hearing)

I acknowledge I have been bilateral deaf since December 20, 2006.

Implanted Sunnybrook/Toronto Advanced Bionics-Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[DeafCaroline]

drphil, what other thread? Link please? I would like to see for myself.

How can "everyone" judge on something they know nothing about?

Your comment relating to those with LD and ASL, what does that have to do with ASL as a sophisticated language? People with learning disabilities struggle with how their brain processes information, be it written language, be it processing the information, be it their ability to focus. Are you saying ASL is not sophisticated if it's not easily learned by some people with LDs? I am not following...

Why did you discontinue taking ASL classes? And secondly, just because one or two classes did not mention ASL as being sophisticated, doesn't mean it's not. I believe York University, which is in your town, offering ASL classes describes it as this:

"Note: Students are NOT allowed to use voice during any normal teaching and learning session in the classroom except from time to time when the course director has arranged to have an interpreter present. Rationale for the NO VOICE rule: It becomes easier to learn and appreciate ASL as a highly sophisticated language. It would be helpful if students avoid “Thinking in English” when learning and using ASL."

deaflibrary.org:
ASL Grammar and Linguistic Studies

As mentioned above, ASL has a very complex grammar. Unlike spoken languages where there is just one serial stream of phonemes, sign languages can have multiple things going on at the same time. This multiple segmentation makes it an exciting language for linguists to study and a frustrating language for Deaf-impaired (aka, hearing) people to learn. ASL has its own morphology (rules for the creation of words), phonetics (rules for handshapes), and grammar that are very unlike those found in spoken languages. ASL and other sign languages promise to be a rich source of analysis for future linguists to come." - deaflibrary.org


Anyway, I am getting the sense you will find fault no matter what. That's too bad.

 

[StSapphire]

deaflibrary.org:
ASL Grammar and Linguistic Studies

As mentioned above, ASL has a very complex grammar. Unlike spoken languages where there is just one serial stream of phonemes, sign languages can have multiple things going on at the same time. This multiple segmentation makes it an exciting language for linguists to study and a frustrating language for Deaf-impaired (aka, hearing) people to learn. ASL has its own morphology (rules for the creation of words), phonetics (rules for handshapes), and grammar that are very unlike those found in spoken languages. ASL and other sign languages promise to be a rich source of analysis for future linguists to come." - deaflibrary.org

Interesting, I'd be very interested to learn about the morphology and phonetics of ASL. Would probably be helpful for learning, in addition to being interesting in and of itself.

 

[Beach girl]

That's something I wondered about too. In written languages, you can sound out a word if you know the rules for phonetics in that language. I was wondering how that would happen in ASL.

There are threads here sometimes that ask "How do you sign such-and-such?" or "what does this sign mean?" that come from Deaf people who use sign, so I assumed it was not that easy to construct signs for certain concepts or to decipher unfamiliar signs.