Do Jews believe in Jesus and still be Jewish?

[christlovedeaf]

And Christian nonsense like your posting is part of Christianity's behaviours.



Let's cut out the nonsense name-calling, no?

Constantly, that will be your message, "have you read, have you read, and still blind?" with all the timidation you said about chrstians, I meant all christians. Don't say you haven't, as in online you have. NO, WE DO NOT, YOU READ? NOT WORSHIP 3 GODS.



Sure you do. Father, Son and Holy Ghost. You also believe that Satan is equal to the other three in power and therefore must be opposed. I count four. Three gods you worship, one you oppose.



I sure can. You know *zilch* about Judaism, so I sure can, if I choose, claim that you don't understand it. You may want to think the case is otherwise, but in fact it is not. You're ignorant. I don't have a problem with you being ignorant, but if you claim to know what you're talking about and it's clear by your words that you really don't, you just make yourself look like an idiot to those of us who understand it better.



Grace doesn't save anyone in the scope of my theology. But I also believe in being a good person and living a positive life rather than devoting myself to God while letting the world rot.

Name calling ?? Mm. Did you know why they said that to Pharisees? Bec religious leaders smart mouth and egoistic just like you. And that's very obvious, you have no clue what christians believe and have no idea who God is as whole canon in the Word of God, there is sooo much Triune portrait in the OT. No, I'm the one don't have problem with YOUR ignorant. There is no place for pride in the presence of God, and that is as He said, SELF RIGHTEOUS IS LIKE A FILTHY RAGS, that is thinking you follow all the laws, but God sees ur shortcoming. As for me, impossible, and thanks a miilions to my Living Lord for what He has done. And even you have no clue what grace is and how that works. That's ur another problem. And don't say you don't. Lord,have mercies of us all. Jesus is my Law. How? Written in my heart and the Holy Spirit shown my every step, and He convicts me and discipline me whenever I fall. Thanks to my Father, who has been so good DAD to me and to mold me into His image. My body haven't yet be glorified, but in Christ coming, I will have new body and thanks to the Lord God Almighty that my flesh NO MORE.

 

[Reba]

It said in Luke and Matthew.... that Joseph is Jesus' birth father...

In Matthew, 1:16 in Holy Bible, Jacob fathered Joseph, the husband
of Mary who gave birth to Jesus who is called the Messiah.

Did you notice that the whole chapter of Matthew 1 says that each man "begat" (that is, biologically fathered) each son, except when it refers to Joseph and Jesus.

Matthew 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


In the above verse, it does not say that Joseph begat Jesus. It says that Jesus was born of Mary.

Also, notice this verse:

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Before Joseph and Mary had physical relations with each other, she was already pregnant with Jesus. Obviously then, Joseph could not be the father of Jesus.

Luke, 3:24, The Genealogy of Jesus Christ, son of Joseph.

Jesus was not a God and he was the Messiah.

Luke 3
21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased. 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

As you see, the voice of God from Heaven said that Jesus was His beloved Son. Also, the verse says that Jesus "was supposed" to be the son of Joseph. That means, the local people assumed that Jesus was the natural son of Joseph. But they assumed wrongly.

sup·posed
adj.
Presumed to be true or real without conclusive evidence.

 

[Reba]

so...

Muslims are like Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Mormon, Catholic, and Christians...

And in all in one, they are simply Theist.

Jewish people, Muslims, and Christians all agree that Jesus is a Messiah.

No, I'm afraid you have it all jumbled up.

 

[Reba]

... I learn about Judaism from a legitimate source (Jews) ...

Me too, for over 45 years. Of course, from age 10 to 18 years it was mostly thru daily life with my Jewish friends; after that, it was thru reading and studying Jewish texts, and discussion with adult Jews. I didn't get the "Christian" viewpoint on Judaism until I was 27, and studying the Bible and dispensationalism. I didn't become a born-again Christian until I was 28.

Oh, I recognize that they're generally Zionists, but I also recognize that they proselytize and try to convert other Jews in deceptive and wicked ways. ..

What are the "deceptive and wicked ways" that Christians try to "convert" Jews? The Christian Jews that I know simply use Scriptures, personal testimonies, and the examples of their lives to present the Gospel.

Apparently you haven't. You must've missed the ones where all of the Tribes of Israel would be rejoined into one people, they would live in the Land of Israel, the Temple would be rebuilt, and world peace would be a reality.

According to the timeline in Revelation, those are events that are yet to happen. Those are future events that take place after the Rapture.

 

[Reba]

No, that is why Christians are waiting for the end of the world, so that the Messianic prophecies that Jesus did not fulfill will be fulfilled the second time Jesus is incarnated. Jews reject this idea as nonsense on the grounds that the Messiah would not need two attempts to fulfill the prophecies.

God set the timeline of events.
Jesus will not be "incarnated" a second time--that would be "reincarnation". Jesus is in His glorified body now, and will not be born into a human body ever again. There is no reincarnation for Jesus or anyone.
Jesus doesn't need two "attempts" to fulfill prophecies. Each prophecy is fulfilled in the proper sequence of events, and there are no failed "attempts".

... The Messiah does not need to give it a second try in order to be successful.

That's right. Jesus, the Messiah, has fulfilled, is fulfilling, and will fulfill each prophecy in its time and order. He doesn't need to "try" a second time because He never fails the first time.

 

[pek1]

Grace doesn't save anyone in the scope of my theology.

That's just it, Teresh, Grace isn't YOUR theology, it belongs to God alone and you, my dear, need Him just as much as I do, as much as CyberRed and Reba does, even as much as deafdyke! I am praying for you, Teresh.

 

[Teresh]

Bec religious leaders smart mouth and egoistic just like you.

Egotistical? No, I'm not out to convert people. Am I more learned than you are on this subject? Absolutely.

But you're just as egotistical as the Jews that you hate, apparently. You claim that the Jews are egocentrical for prefering their way and then turn around and demand people follow yours. Pure hypocrisy.

And that's very obvious, you have no clue what christians believe and have no idea who God is as whole canon in the Word of God, there is sooo much Triune portrait in the OT.

Find me ONE passage in the Tanakh that suggests there's three gods. ONE.

No, I'm the one don't have problem with YOUR ignorant. There is no place for pride in the presence of God, and that is as He said, SELF RIGHTEOUS IS LIKE A FILTHY RAGS, that is thinking you follow all the laws, but God sees ur shortcoming.

It's not self-righteous to present yourself well in the face of your Creator. God made you, God is your parent. If you can't even respect your Creator who breathed life into you, without whom your very soul and all of the world would not exist, who can you respect?

As for me, impossible, and thanks a miilions to my Living Lord for what He has done. And even you have no clue what grace is and how that works. That's ur another problem. And don't say you don't.

You believe in grace not because it is of God but because you need a philosophy that will allow you to get away with the evil that exists within you. You think that if you believe strongly enough you will go to Heaven. There is nothing wrong with the belief, in my opinion, so long as the belief compels you to act righteously. Historically, however, that has not been the case.

Nonetheless, I would also say that God would not give you a philosophy that would allow you to do evil. If you believe God loves His creation, you would know understand that God would not deliberately lead His creation to do evil. Grace is a flawed idea because it does not compel righteous action. Indeed, it allows for great evil and makes no effort to limit the impact of that evil because it takes control of human destiny out of the hands of humans. It does not require humans to act and behave properly and control their own fate.

What this really boils down to is whether or not we really have free will. You say no. I say yes.

Me too, for over 45 years. Of course, from age 10 to 18 years it was mostly thru daily life with my Jewish friends; after that, it was thru reading and studying Jewish texts, and discussion with adult Jews. I didn't get the "Christian" viewpoint on Judaism until I was 27, and studying the Bible and dispensationalism. I didn't become a born-again Christian until I was 28.

What are the "deceptive and wicked ways" that Christians try to "convert" Jews? The Christian Jews that I know simply use Scriptures, personal testimonies, and the examples of their lives to present the Gospel.

Lying about the Rabbis and what Judaism is to an audience who does not have even the most cursory understanding of the religion they were born to? Messianic Jews, in my experience, often are just like Christians in vilifying the Pharisees, the Rabbis and indeed even their fellow Jews, and they they also paradoxically claim to be legitimate members of the Jewish people.

Wearing tallitot and t'fillin when praying, incorporating Jewish symbols into their practice while completely changing the meanings of the symbols and then claiming that the new thoroughly Christian amalgamation is Jewish is downright lying. And yet, they're able to generate a version of Christianity that to the Jew who does not have the basic understanding of Judaism seems to be authentic Judaism.

It's not like it's uncommon in the US for a Jew to be raised only going to synagogue on the High Holy Days or not even then. (Contrast with Christians who only go to Church on Christmas and Easter.) Not going to Hebrew school except for the study leading up to one's Bar or Bat Mitzvah ceremony does not constitute a basic Jewish education. The individual from this perspective does not know very much about Judaism as a religion. Organisations like Jews for Jesus work to specifically target these people (indeed, there are a LOT of them--50% of Jews in America intermarry, and only a fourth of the kids from intermarried families are raised as Jews). They then tell them that it's Jewish to believe in Jesus and other nonsense about what their cursory Judaic knowledge was and since they don't know any better, they accept it.

According to the timeline in Revelation, those are events that are yet to happen. Those are future events that take place after the Rapture.

That's nice, but it's not the timeline in Hebrew scripture, in which the legitimacy of a Messiah is established.

That's right. Jesus, the Messiah, has fulfilled, is fulfilling, and will fulfill each prophecy in its time and order. He doesn't need to "try" a second time because He never fails the first time.

Oh, I happen to recall him dying...

That's just it, Teresh, Grace isn't YOUR theology, it belongs to God alone and you, my dear, need Him just as much as I do, as much as CyberRed and Reba does, even as much as deafdyke! I am praying for you, Teresh.

Sorry, but I believe in free will and that humans are responsible for themselves. I don't 'need' God because I already have God. I also have a series of other things like logic and reason that while you have them you choose to forgo on the pretext that they are 'evil'.

 

[christlovedeaf]

Egotistical? No, I'm not out to convert people. Am I more learned than you are on this subject? Absolutely.

But you're just as egotistical as the Jews that you hate, apparently. You claim that the Jews are egocentrical for prefering their way and then turn around and demand people follow yours. Pure hypocrisy.



Find me ONE passage in the Tanakh that suggests there's three gods. ONE.



It's not self-righteous to present yourself well in the face of your Creator. God made you, God is your parent. If you can't even respect your Creator who breathed life into you, without whom your very soul and all of the world would not exist, who can you respect?



You believe in grace not because it is of God but because you need a philosophy that will allow you to get away with the evil that exists within you. You think that if you believe strongly enough you will go to Heaven. There is nothing wrong with the belief, in my opinion, so long as the belief compels you to act righteously. Historically, however, that has not been the case.

Nonetheless, I would also say that God would not give you a philosophy that would allow you to do evil. If you believe God loves His creation, you would know understand that God would not deliberately lead His creation to do evil. Grace is a flawed idea because it does not compel righteous action. Indeed, it allows for great evil and makes no effort to limit the impact of that evil because it takes control of human destiny out of the hands of humans. It does not require humans to act and behave properly and control their own fate.

What this really boils down to is whether or not we really have free will. You say no. I say yes.

Me too, for over 45 years. Of course, from age 10 to 18 years it was mostly thru daily life with my Jewish friends; after that, it was thru reading and studying Jewish texts, and discussion with adult Jews. I didn't get the "Christian" viewpoint on Judaism until I was 27, and studying the Bible and dispensationalism. I didn't become a born-again Christian until I was 28.





Lying about the Rabbis and what Judaism is to an audience who does not have even the most cursory understanding of the religion they were born to? Messianic Jews, in my experience, often are just like Christians in vilifying the Pharisees, the Rabbis and indeed even their fellow Jews, and they they also paradoxically claim to be legitimate members of the Jewish people.

Wearing tallitot and t'fillin when praying, incorporating Jewish symbols into their practice while completely changing the meanings of the symbols and then claiming that the new thoroughly Christian amalgamation is Jewish is downright lying. And yet, they're able to generate a version of Christianity that to the Jew who does not have the basic understanding of Judaism seems to be authentic Judaism.

It's not like it's uncommon in the US for a Jew to be raised only going to synagogue on the High Holy Days or not even then. (Contrast with Christians who only go to Church on Christmas and Easter.) Not going to Hebrew school except for the study leading up to one's Bar or Bat Mitzvah ceremony does not constitute a basic Jewish education. The individual from this perspective does not know very much about Judaism as a religion. Organisations like Jews for Jesus work to specifically target these people (indeed, there are a LOT of them--50% of Jews in America intermarry, and only a fourth of the kids from intermarried families are raised as Jews). They then tell them that it's Jewish to believe in Jesus and other nonsense about what their cursory Judaic knowledge was and since they don't know any better, they accept it.



That's nice, but it's not the timeline in Hebrew scripture, in which the legitimacy of a Messiah is established.



Oh, I happen to recall him dying...



Sorry, but I believe in free will and that humans are responsible for themselves. I don't 'need' God because I already have God. I also have a series of other things like logic and reason that while you have them you choose to forgo on the pretext that they are 'evil'.

Who says we try or you try to convert people? Don't put ur word in my mouth, in every point I'm saying. Again, we do not worship 3 gods, you have no idea who God is and how its described, what make u think we don't believe in freewill? We do. Jesus isn't dying. Daniel chapter 9 described it very clearly which giving the timeline. Joel described of Armegeddon. Isaiah described Triune. Genesis described as Jesus will crushed Satan. Without Jesus, surely enough I would be egoistic. Salvation of the Lord relate Grace to all mankind for those who called upon Him, relate to OT for prophesied the coming of Messiah and the death of Messiah which grace begins and will end before Great Tribulation (wrath of God) comes. I like what I learned of Messianic Jews perspective, jews who converts to Christ not mean change religion, but to complete. That's the good way to look at. Tho yours and my soul lives forever without end, but sadly to say, you rejected Christ, you are spiritually dead, tho soul still lives. And no, I have no place or authority to convert you, God is. And judiasm who realize who Christ is, and gave their heart to Christ, don't say they doesn't have enough knowledge. And no, you do not know more than any of us or those who were judiasm. They know longer dragged in chain with black ball like you are now and they are free from prison, but you still are in prison. Jesus set us free and our debt been paid in full.

 

[Teresh]

Who says we try or you try to convert people? Don't put ur word in my mouth, in every point I'm saying.

Um, the missionaries do.

Again, we do not worship 3 gods, you have no idea who God is and how its described,

No, I do understand who God is, my concept is just different from yours.

Joel described of Armegeddon. Isaiah described Triune.

Citations?

Genesis described as Jesus will crushed Satan.

In the Christian interpretation, yes, but the Christian interpretation did not appear until Christianity did. It simply did not exist prior to that time.

I like what I learned of Messianic Jews perspective, jews who converts to Christ not mean change religion, but to complete.

Judaism is a complete religion in itself, it does not need to be "completed" because it already is. Christianity does not "complete" Judaism because it requires Jews to reject a lot of Jewish concepts and ideas. You've been able to create a very different religion based on one Jewish book (the Tanakh), but the Tanakh is not the only Jewish religious text and it is not the sigma of Jewish thought and the Jewish relationship with God.

That's the good way to look at. Tho yours and my soul lives forever without end, but sadly to say, you rejected Christ, you are spiritually dead, tho soul still lives.

Nope! I'm very spiritually alive. I have a spirituality that is meaningful to me as a person. You follow a religion built on the hatred of everyone that does not follow it. It's obvious you would not understand how a non-Christian could have a meaningful relationship with God--The very concept strikes you as nonsense because you don't want to understand. You've taught yourself, trained yourself that knowledge and learning is evil and thus you use that as justification for hating other people.

You are, however, incorrect. I do hope someday you come to an understanding of the obvious. As far as I'm concerned, if you're a good person that understanding doesn't matter. But if you hate people of other faiths, you're not a good person.

And no, you do not know more than any of us or those who were judiasm.

Heh. No, I do. It is one thing to be ignorant, to simply lack the knowledge or experience to know that what you are saying is nonsense. It is another to be content being ignorant, which is your case. You don't want to learn, you don't want to understand. And so long as you don't want to understand God, you never will.

 

[pek1]

Sorry, but I believe in free will and that humans are responsible for themselves. I don't 'need' God because I already have God. I also have a series of other things like logic and reason that while you have them you choose to forgo on the pretext that they are 'evil'.

A series? This isn't a television show we're talking about, Teresh. I actually agree with you on the first sentence, as it is true that humans have a free will and their own mind to either accept Christ and His sacrifice or reject it. In the end, since that be the case, Teresh, would you agree that we all would be, "without excuse"?

 

[christlovedeaf]

Um, the missionaries do.
////NO THEY DON'T, THEY DO WHAT CHRIST CALLED THEM TO DO. WE WILL HOLD ACCOUNTABLE FOR DISOBEY WHAT GOD CALLED US TO DO//////


No, I do understand who God is, my concept is just different from yours.
///RIGHT, WE DO////


Citations?
//////THERE IS SO MANY VERSES AND LONG/////


In the Christian interpretation, yes, but the Christian interpretation did not appear until Christianity did. It simply did not exist prior to that time.
/////YES IT DOES, GOD SPOKE TO THE WRITER.///////


Judaism is a complete religion in itself, it does not need to be "completed" because it already is. Christianity does not "complete" Judaism because it requires Jews to reject a lot of Jewish concepts and ideas. You've been able to create a very different religion based on one Jewish book (the Tanakh), but the Tanakh is not the only Jewish religious text and it is not the sigma of Jewish thought and the Jewish relationship with God.
////NO, JUDIASM DOES NOT COMPLETE ITSELF, AND IF SO, THERE IS NO POINT OF THE MESSIAH. AND IN SOMEWAY THEY CAN REJECT JEWISH VIEW WHICH THOSE JUDIASM IS REBELLION AGAINST GOD, EVEN JUDIASM CAN KILL JEREMIAH.////


Nope! I'm very spiritually alive. I have a spirituality that is meaningful to me as a person. You follow a religion built on the hatred of everyone that does not follow it. It's obvious you would not understand how a non-Christian could have a meaningful relationship with God--The very concept strikes you as nonsense because you don't want to understand. You've taught yourself, trained yourself that knowledge and learning is evil and thus you use that as justification for hating other people. //// NO, THERE IS NO HATE, THAT IS YOUR OPINION BY BELIEVING WE HATE. TRUTHFULLY GOSPEL IS LOVE. YOU ARE THE ONE IS HATING CHRISTIANS AND YES I HAVE SEEN YOU SAID YOU DON'T HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT BY YOUR TIMIDATING COMMENTS THAT'S EXPLAINED AND YOU JUDGE BY THINKING IT IS EVIL, TRUTHFULLY, THERE IS NOT A SLIGHTEST THAT IS EVIL. AND SORRY, AS IT IS WRITTEN, APART FROM CHRIST, THERE IS NO SPIRIT IN THEM. SPIRIT MAY BE UPON YOU, BUT NOT IN YOU.///////

You are, however, incorrect. I do hope someday you come to an understanding of the obvious. As far as I'm concerned, if you're a good person that understanding doesn't matter. But if you hate people of other faiths, you're not a good person.
//// IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING PEOPLE'S OTHER FAITH. AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE THE KIND OF PERSON I AM. AND EVEN, I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR WAY OF LOOKING AT, BUT I WOULDN'T JUDGE YOU BY SAYING YOU ARE NOT A GOOD PERSON. AND NOT, YOU THINK ITS OBVIOUS, NO, YOU DETERMINE TO CUT DOWN WHOM I'M STANDING FOR AND MY FAITH AND PERVERT THE VIEW OF MY FAITH.///


Heh. No, I do. It is one thing to be ignorant, to simply lack the knowledge or experience to know that what you are saying is nonsense. It is another to be content being ignorant, which is your case. You don't want to learn, you don't want to understand. And so long as you don't want to understand God, you never will.

/////MMMMM, ITS THE OTHER A WAY AROUND. YOU HAVE THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. INSPITE BY YOUR GROWING UP IN R C, DOESN'T MEAN KNOW ALL RHE DOCTRINES AND EVEN THO I MYSELF DOESN'T AGREE A LOT ABOUT R C. AND BY WHAT I SEE LOT OF OTHER THREADS AND I BEGIN TO REALIZE, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW DEEPLY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.////

 

[Throwstones]

You don't know anything about the prophets. That is a fact whether or not you want to accept it. If you're going to take Judaism and completely misinterpret all of its beliefs and ideas in order to justify a wildly different faith, then no, you do not understand Judaism or its religious texts. Understanding Jewish prophecy requires understanding Judaism, something that you do not.



Your "fact" is itself just an opinion. You do not want to admit this because it would require acknowledging that your opinion is not absolute. Naturally, you thus claim to speak for God on the idea that your opinion is absolute God-given "fact". You need this protective layer of a lie in order to justify your beliefs because you are not inherently spiritually fulfilled. You do not see or understand the purpose of religion because you have locked yourself into an opinion that while common is not an absolute truth.

You want to believe it is absolute truth because that would provide you justification for hatred of people of other faiths, a concept that has been in Christianity since the very beginning. However, as you do not understand Judaism, which you paradoxically claim is the basis of your religion, it is fairly obvious to any intelligent individual that your faith is based on lies, deceptions, contradictions and flawed logic rather than on God.



Men's theories? All theories are men's, even yours. Your interpretation of Scripture comes from man, either yourself or another Christian, not from God. You won't accept this because it would eliminate your claim to being God or at least God's mouthpiece. Claiming that you speak for God allows you to forgo logic and reason to explain your beliefs. You fail to realise, however, that logic and reason were given to us by God and that if we do not use them we are not realising our true nature and are thus not serving God properly. We are made in the image and likeness of God. Thus, it is imperative for us to seek to emulate the divine. If the divine is logical, as are we, then we must be a logical people.

Blind as the Pharisees? Funny, but I could say you are as blind as the priests. Is that what you wanted to hear? You're as blind as every other conservative "Christian" on this forum. It's interesting, but I find it ironic that you opt to make petty insults rather than thinking like a rational, intelligent human being.



But you are inevitably blind to the fact that your 'reliance on God's logic' is simply your own interpretation of Scripture. You are blind to the incredibly obvious because you believe yourself to speak for God, indeed, to be God.



I'm in a group which has accepted logic and reason as the basis of its ideas. Bribery has nothing to do with it, though if you're willing to accept that nonsense as true, you can again justify your hatred of Jews.



Why don't you go read the first commandment and say that sanely? Christianity worships three gods, one of which was as human being.



Sorry, but no, it doesn't work like that. Impurity in Judaism is a religious matter. If a person is unclean, physically, mentally or spiritually, is he or she really fit to enter into the divine presence? Were unclean priests allowed to enter into the Holy of Holies? Absolutely not. To be unclean in the presence of God is to desecrate and doubt the nature of God. Thus, it is imperative that one be clean.

A Gentile (or a Samaritan) who is clean and follows the Noachide Laws is a Jew in all but title according to Jewish law and is to be regarded as such. However, most Gentiles are not clean (and indeed, many do not follow the Noachide Laws).


Conclusion of all of the above statements: You are Anti-Semitic and rely on nonsense Anti-Semitic lies about Jews, about the Pharisees, and about Judaism in order to argue your hatred of Jews and the Jewish religion.

Hey Teresh, I do personally believe that some of the rabbis from Hillel help you to talk back to us on Alldeaf even how to say to us but since you did not know much about the Bible as Torah but you want someone to help you to tell us what you depend on their teaching but you did not dig up in your own times and truth what Jesus says in the Bible. You make rejection of our Messiah Jesus through prophecies to be fulfillment. Therefore, when you will stand in front of Great White Throne with our God the Father as long as you will be very trembled with your own teeth and fearful to GOD who says this is JESUS the Messiah your Lord, "Why you do quench the truth of GOD in the BIBLE about the Messiah Jesus' fulfillment prophecies?" You will have to answer to HIS questions, can't have any avoiding HIM. There is no further discussion. I pray for you and your salvation!

Throwstones

 

[Reba]

Lying about the Rabbis and what Judaism is to an audience who does not have even the most cursory understanding of the religion they were born to? Messianic Jews, in my experience, often are just like Christians in vilifying the Pharisees, the Rabbis and indeed even their fellow Jews, and they they also paradoxically claim to be legitimate members of the Jewish people.

Wearing tallitot and t'fillin when praying, incorporating Jewish symbols into their practice while completely changing the meanings of the symbols and then claiming that the new thoroughly Christian amalgamation is Jewish is downright lying. And yet, they're able to generate a version of Christianity that to the Jew who does not have the basic understanding of Judaism seems to be authentic Judaism.

The Jewish Christians that I know don't do that, and neither do the missionaries to the Jewish community that I know do that. I don't know what other organizations do.

At our church (and other similar independent Baptist churches), when a Jew becomes a born-again Christian, that person worships the same way as the Gentiles who become Christians. For example, a Catholic that becomes a born-again Christian no longer observes the mass or venerates saints. A Seventh-Day Adventist who becomes a born-again Christian no longer attends Saturday services. A Muslim who becomes a born-again Christian no longer honors Muhommad. A Shintu believer who becomes a born-again Christian no longer worships ancestors. And so forth . . .

That is, born-again Christians quit their past religious practices, and take up new ways. That doesn't mean they have to abandon cultural practices (unless those practices are unbiblical).

There are some people who think that all born-again Jews must join together and form "Messianic" worship groups, and maintain the practices of Judaism with Christian worship. That is not our belief or practice. We welcome born-again Jews and Gentiles equally into our membership. I

I Corinthians 12
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

It's not like it's uncommon in the US for a Jew to be raised only going to synagogue on the High Holy Days or not even then. (Contrast with Christians who only go to Church on Christmas and Easter.) Not going to Hebrew school except for the study leading up to one's Bar or Bat Mitzvah ceremony does not constitute a basic Jewish education. The individual from this perspective does not know very much about Judaism as a religion.

My friends attended Hebrew school, some beyond Bar Mitzvah (no Bat Mitzvahs). They observed all the holy days (they stayed home from public school on those days), and observed Kosher dietary rules, including having "dual" kitchens. Their parents closed their businesses for the Sabbath, and they walked to the synagogue. They didn't answer the phone or do any "work" during the Sabbath. The men and boys wore yamulkas. When I asked them about their practices, they explained the reasons.

Organisations like Jews for Jesus work to specifically target these people ...

Our church is not connected with those organizations.

That's nice, but it's not the timeline in Hebrew scripture, in which the legitimacy of a Messiah is established.

What is the timeline in Hebrew scripture?

Oh, I happen to recall him dying...

So, that was not a failure. That was the plan, since the beginning. Jesus voluntarily sacrificed Himself. Without His death there would be no glorious resurrection. He was the final sacrifice, pah! No more animal sacrifices required. His resurrection conquered the power of death over mankind. That is victory, not failure.

Sorry, but I believe in free will...

So do Christians. That's why some people are saved, and some are not. Some people refuse to believe in Jesus Christ, and that is their free-will decision.

I don't 'need' God because I already have God.

What does that mean, to "have God"?

I also have a series of other things like logic and reason that while you have them you choose to forgo on the pretext that they are 'evil'.

Logic and reason are evil? I've never heard that before. That is certainly not taught at my church.

God is the God of order, not chaos. He planned out the universe and eternity with a logic beyond our feeble understanding.

 

[Teresh]

I actually agree with you on the first sentence, as it is true that humans have a free will and their own mind to either accept Christ and His sacrifice or reject it. In the end, since that be the case, Teresh, would you agree that we all would be, "without excuse"?

No, because I belief action is more important than belief.

////NO THEY DON'T, THEY DO WHAT CHRIST CALLED THEM TO DO. WE WILL HOLD ACCOUNTABLE FOR DISOBEY WHAT GOD CALLED US TO DO//////

Missionaries convert people. You can hide behind "But Jesus said so!" if you want to, and that's fine, but you should not deny that converting people is indeed the missionaries' objective.

//////THERE IS SO MANY VERSES AND LONG/////

Stop making excuses for not citing scripture. If you can't back up your opinion, sorry, but you automatically lose.

/////YES IT DOES, GOD SPOKE TO THE WRITER.///////

Not to the Jewish writers, apparently. A lot of the Christian theological ideas simply don't exist in Judaism. You can deny that if you wish, but you'd be denying reality. You hate Jews because you think that their religion compelled the acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah because that is what you are taught. You are taught, by other Christians, that Judaism leads to Christianity. This isn't true, of course, but you think it is. As a result of that thought, you cannot fathom how Judaism

////NO, JUDIASM DOES NOT COMPLETE ITSELF, AND IF SO, THERE IS NO POINT OF THE MESSIAH. AND IN SOMEWAY THEY CAN REJECT JEWISH VIEW WHICH THOSE JUDIASM IS REBELLION AGAINST GOD, EVEN JUDIASM CAN KILL JEREMIAH.////

Funny, but I seem to recall the Israelites having a covenant with God at Sinai 1000 or so years before Jesus was born. Judaism isn't a "rebellion against God" because the Jews were the first people, according to the Tanakh, to have God. The Jews did kill a lot of people. So did the Christians.

//// NO, THERE IS NO HATE, THAT IS YOUR OPINION BY BELIEVING WE HATE. TRUTHFULLY GOSPEL IS LOVE. YOU ARE THE ONE IS HATING CHRISTIANS AND YES I HAVE SEEN YOU SAID YOU DON'T HATE CHRISTIANS, BUT BY YOUR TIMIDATING COMMENTS THAT'S EXPLAINED AND YOU JUDGE BY THINKING IT IS EVIL, TRUTHFULLY, THERE IS NOT A SLIGHTEST THAT IS EVIL. AND SORRY, AS IT IS WRITTEN, APART FROM CHRIST, THERE IS NO SPIRIT IN THEM. SPIRIT MAY BE UPON YOU, BUT NOT IN YOU.///////

A. If the Gospel is love, as you say, you are compelled to respect and appreciate the adherents of other religions. You do not do this.

B. I have never said anywhere in this thread that Christianity or its adherents are evil. You're putting words in my mouth.

//// IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HATING PEOPLE'S OTHER FAITH. AND YOU HAVE NO CLUE THE KIND OF PERSON I AM. AND EVEN, I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR WAY OF LOOKING AT, BUT I WOULDN'T JUDGE YOU BY SAYING YOU ARE NOT A GOOD PERSON. AND NOT, YOU THINK ITS OBVIOUS, NO, YOU DETERMINE TO CUT DOWN WHOM I'M STANDING FOR AND MY FAITH AND PERVERT THE VIEW OF MY FAITH.///

You can't hate the adherents of another faith and still be a good person. The two are mutually exclusive.

/////MMMMM, ITS THE OTHER A WAY AROUND. YOU HAVE THE LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE. INSPITE BY YOUR GROWING UP IN R C, DOESN'T MEAN KNOW ALL RHE DOCTRINES AND EVEN THO I MYSELF DOESN'T AGREE A LOT ABOUT R C. AND BY WHAT I SEE LOT OF OTHER THREADS AND I BEGIN TO REALIZE, YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW DEEPLY OF CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.////

I know a great deal of Christian doctrine... You can ask me anything about it and I can answer.

I do personally believe that some of the rabbis from Hillel help you to talk back to us on Alldeaf even how to say to us but since you did not know much about the Bible as Torah but you want someone to help you to tell us what you depend on their teaching but you did not dig up in your own times and truth what Jesus says in the Bible.

The Hillel rabbi for our area quit at the end of last year. I had only met him once. I'm not sure if we have a new one yet, so, sorry, but no.

 

[Teresh]

The Jewish Christians that I know don't do that, and neither do the missionaries to the Jewish community that I know do that. I don't know what other organizations do.

At our church (and other similar independent Baptist churches), when a Jew becomes a born-again Christian, that person worships the same way as the Gentiles who become Christians. For example, a Catholic that becomes a born-again Christian no longer observes the mass or venerates saints. A Seventh-Day Adventist who becomes a born-again Christian no longer attends Saturday services. A Muslim who becomes a born-again Christian no longer honors Muhommad. A Shintu believer who becomes a born-again Christian no longer worships ancestors. And so forth . . .

That is, born-again Christians quit their past religious practices, and take up new ways. That doesn't mean they have to abandon cultural practices (unless those practices are unbiblical).

That's what normally happens and I have no problem with that. I have a problem with "Messianism" trying to create a pseudo-Judaism that is thoroughly Christian in precepts beliefs but tries to emulate Jewish practice in order to deceive people into thinking that it is Judaism.

My friends attended Hebrew school, some beyond Bar Mitzvah (no Bat Mitzvahs). They observed all the holy days (they stayed home from public school on those days), and observed Kosher dietary rules, including having "dual" kitchens. Their parents closed their businesses for the Sabbath, and they walked to the synagogue. They didn't answer the phone or do any "work" during the Sabbath. The men and boys wore yamulkas. When I asked them about their practices, they explained the reasons.

The situation is different now than it was when you were a kid. Reform Judaism and even Conservative Judaism are consistently getting more liberal and while I do not have a problem with liberalism, a consequence of it is that without Renewal (which is, fortunately, growing) liberal Judaism has a problem of generating a fair number of individuals with no connection to their religion or their heritage.

There are a lot of holy days in Judaism... Reform Judaism does not observe a number of them (the minor fast days of the cycle of destruction in particular). Reform Jews are not required to keep kosher. Some work on Shabbat. Most do drive to the synagogue due to living too far to walk, and that's the ones that even go which are in the minority. A congregation may have 1100 members, but typically its Shabbat service attendees number 60-70 or less. Kippot are worn by some men, some women and not by others. This comprises about 38% of the American Jewry that affiliates with a synagogue, the largest group.

Conservative Judaism is less liberal on theology, though it too has been moving to the left in other areas, such as acceptance of gay and lesbian congregants, egalitarianism, and mixed-seating. Some of the laws of kashrut have been abolished, such as the rules that often render gelatin treif. The Conservative rabbinate does believe in kashrut and its importance but has adopted the opinion that some things are rendered treif in Orthodoxy because they are made with things that are kashered by the way they are processed. That's 33%.

Our church is not connected with those organizations.

And that's a good thing.

What is the timeline in Hebrew scripture?

There isn't one beyond that the Messiah would complete the specified objectives within his lifetime and as the Messiah is a human (not God), that would only be within the natural human lifespan of around 60-100 years.

So, that was not a failure. That was the plan, since the beginning. Jesus voluntarily sacrificed Himself. Without His death there would be no glorious resurrection. He was the final sacrifice, pah! No more animal sacrifices required. His resurrection conquered the power of death over mankind. That is victory, not failure.

I'm not inclined to believe in the resurrection... But aside from that, remember also that human sacrifice is one of the first rules God gave in the Bible and that crucifixion is not a form of sacrifice, it is a form of execution.

So do Christians. That's why some people are saved, and some are not. Some people refuse to believe in Jesus Christ, and that is their free-will decision.

See, here, we're determining being "saved" based on belief rather than action. I believe that concept to be nonsense though believing in it does not save or damn anyone in and of itself.

What does that mean, to "have God"?

To know that God exists and to believe in God. To have a meaningful relationship with God.

Logic and reason are evil? I've never heard that before. That is certainly not taught at my church.

You're also not one of the Christians on this forum that hates Jews or necessarily feels that Judaism is an incomplete religion.

God is the God of order, not chaos. He planned out the universe and eternity with a logic beyond our feeble understanding.

I disagree. We are made in the image and likeness of God. By that, we can say that while God in particular we can comprehend not, we can and should use all that we were given by God in order to come to a greater understanding of that which we can perceive: Creation.

 

[Momoftwo]

away from Teserch



Reba -

 

[Throwstones]

away from Teserch



Reba -

I am second to Reba/Momoftwo!!!!! away from Teresh!

 

[christlovedeaf]

Oh one thing, Teresh, I forgot to add. The thing you described about missionaries and some christians does, the church I go, doesn't do such thing. We have no power to convert people, bec Jesus didn't call us to make or force someone to do that, even Jesus doesn't do that. And one thing, even you and I doesn't agree in many things, but that doesn't mean we will be enemies, not only that, I have no desire to be your enemies, Christ in me, is too impossible for me to do such thing. Tooo impossible.

 

[Oceanbreeze]

I am second to Reba/Momoftwo!!!!! away from Teresh!

Meh. I don't understand why you have to take that atitude. She isn't hurting anyone by stating her beliefs and trying to explain them.

I'm sorry if you took offense to what she said. If you're that offended, why not just step out of the thread like you said you were going to do instead of continuing to bash Teresh for her beliefs. It's obvious you disagree with her. So be it. That's your right. But, you don't have to back away from her as if she has the plague.

 

[jazzy]

I am second to Reba/Momoftwo!!!!! away from Teresh!

It shows me here, not mature Christians.