Do animals (such as pets) have souls?

[naisho]

he is human and would kill without thinking about it twice. Just saying killing is not an inherent trait of wild animals.

Here are wild and untame animals protecting species not in their "pack"

Dolphins rescue surfer from shark - TODAY People - People: Tales of survival - TODAYshow.com

Buddy, he's human, humans are capable of reasoning different from animals.. that's what we were talking about the last few convos.

Wild and untame animals protecting species not in their pack is not unusual behavior. It happens with cheetahs and leopards, apes and monkeys. Yet cheetahs and leopards will still attack a human regardless.

 

[Steinhauer]

Buddy, he's human, humans are capable of reasoning different from animals.. that's what we were talking about the last few convos.

Wild and untame animals protecting species not in their pack is not unusual behavior. It happens with cheetahs and leopards, apes and monkeys. Yet humans and humans will still attack a human regardless.

So, do animals attack their own species on the level that humans do?

 

[naisho]

I never said that.. you completely modified my sentence to your own words.

Stein, just take it easy and a chill pill, you are going in circular logic!

 

[freckles]

I am guessing they would have no change in emotion if you died.

oh and, I stand that incorrect.

'I am guessing' you have no pets (animals) then.

(yay! made 1,000th post - thanks to a PM - in this category, animals!) :P

 

[naisho]

This space is reserved (reference 316334)

 

[Steinhauer]

I never said that.. you completely modified my sentence to your own words.

Stein, just take it easy and a chill pill, you are going in circular logic!

No, I am not miffed at all Just asking if you really think humans are the "intelligent" ones?

I mean ..... we managed to kind of eff things up in major ways.

 

[naisho]

No, I am not miffed at all Just asking if you really think humans are the "intelligent" ones?

I mean ..... we managed to kind of eff things up in major ways.

Never said we're intelligent. Stein.. I said we're capable of higher reasoning... that doesn't equal intelligence.

 

[Steinhauer]

Never said we're intelligent. Stein.. I said we're capable of higher reasoning... that doesn't equal intelligence.

and our higher reasoning equates to mass destruction of the earth?

Doesn't sound like higher reasoning at all .....

I know what your saying ... so relax, I am just reminded of a story by Mark Twain.

Of all the animals, man is the only one that is cruel. He is the only one that inflicts pain for the pleasure of doing it.

ah ... here it is:

http://skeptically.org/logicalthreads/id14.html

 

[naisho]

and our higher reasoning equates to mass destruction of the earth?

Doesn't sound like higher reasoning at all .....

Did I say that? Even imply it in the slightest?
You're not doing very well trying to twist my words into your agenda Steinhauer. It's not going to work, you don't debate like this with people who think the way I do.

 

[Steinhauer]

Did I say that? Even imply it in the slightest?
You're not doing very well trying to twist my words into your agenda Steinhauer. It's not going to work, you don't debate like this with people who think the way I do.

Its already been debated. Mark Twain died a long time ago.

 

[naisho]

O.K., that's cool, just don't twist my words unless you want to meet in the big boy sandbox.

 

[Steinhauer]

O.K., that's cool, just don't twist my words unless you want to meet in the big boy sandbox.

I didn't twist your words. I was just showing you the only difference between a wild animal's urge to kill and that of a human is that human's do this as an act of cruelty, greed, revenge, perversion,

and sometimes ... self defense.

Animals do this for food and self defense only. Its never about cruelty.

So ... the OP's question should have been ... Animals obviously have souls, do men?

 

[naisho]

Well, that's for another topic regarding human morality.
This is about animals and a penchant towards their tendency to contain what is described as souls.

I think it is my strong point that there is a difference between domesticated animal preying habits (see references to Tilki and Travis) in stark contrast to the untamed. Human on Human intervention is not related to the subject, so it was not feasible for input. :|

 

[naisho]

So ... the OP's question should have been ... Animals obviously have souls, do men?

You can't justify the actions of many animals as capable of having souls. Does the O. asellus understand a thing of all the emotions and empathy you've described?

Yes? So, then you are saying even lesser life forms of animals have souls even if they cannot express the ability to show that they don't intend to take over mankind. Ants, roaches would take over if there were no control protocol implemented on them.

No? Re-word your statement. It does not represent all animals..

Maybe you want to say "domesticated pets", then I can understand. All animals? You're including the whole kingdom. From Human to Tiger to June beetle.

 

[rockin'robin]

absolutely. absolutely.

they all creatures (esp. cats & dogs) sense their surroundings (i.e. of deceased pets you or somebody else had before them) in that house/place, they can see/smell/feel what you can't.

one of my cats, miles years ago, he wouldn't give out his last breath until I got into the back of vet exam room, have him in my arms then started purring his sparkly eyes out at me and died. purred to his max. golly, who would have been so HAPPY knowing to die a few minutes later? he waited for about two hours for me while I was waiting out in a room where a vet tech took miles away. walking out sobbed with him in a box in my hands, it was raining hard but as soon the staff opened the door for me, it stopped raining and the sun came right out beaming around us as a butterfly flew by.

I'll never forget that. I think this will only happen to animal lovers (read: lover not owner) who believe in love of animals.

naisho, you're thinking too much.

Beautiful story!...Ur Cat loved you very much.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

and our higher reasoning equates to mass destruction of the earth?

Doesn't sound like higher reasoning at all .....

I know what your saying ... so relax, I am just reminded of a story by Mark Twain.




ah ... here it is:

DAMNED HUMAN RACE--Mark Twain

Mark Twain is blissfully unaware of chimpanzees and dolphins.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

This whole debate thing is why I refuse to call it a "soul." My interpretation of what it is can be translated as a "soul" to other people, but when people start adding religious definitions... it just doesn't fit the "mould."

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

So this means that animal is not capable of higher reasoning (stated this way earlier).
The animal does not know the consequences involved in what they are doing. It may be trained to do this, but it doesn't understand why.

On the other hand, the difference between us and them is we can understand beyond training.

Dog can be taught not to eat Handy's birthday cake, but it doesn't know why it can't eat her cake since it's for the surprise later.

We can see the birthday cake and want to eat it - but we also know that if we eat it before Handy got to do the normal birthday routines on it, we will have a guilty conscience.

Er...

My dog has a guilty conscience, and it's not because we trained him. We've never trained him-- he trained himself.

He knows that if he eat the food off our plates, we get upset and we don't punish him; so he doesn't. He knows that it's not appropriate to bite, or otherwise we get upset, but we don't punish him. He knows that if he run out of the door without our approval, we become miserable. We don't even reward him.

Frankly...

The problem is here that dogs have a high range of intelligence from the super-dumb to being able to train themselves. And frankly, humans are just as dumb as so-called "un-trainable" dogs sometimes when it come to trying to understand consequences.

 

[naisho]

Er...

My dog has a guilty conscience, and it's not because we trained him. We've never trained him-- he trained himself.

He knows that if he eat the food off our plates, we get upset and we don't punish him; so he doesn't. He knows that it's not appropriate to bite, or otherwise we get upset, but we don't punish him. He knows that if he run out of the door without our approval, we become miserable. We don't even reward him.

.. alright, but that's not the point. I used the guilty conscience for that particular example for explaining higher reasoning. In that example, it has to do with knowing the cake is for a birthday celebration; I'm not sure if dogs would understand what a birthday means.


Does he know why he is not supposed to eat the food off your plates, aside from you and your relations getting angry at him?
Any human invited or uninvited, that comes into your home, other than the mentally disabled or the children will know that food a plate that does not belong to them is not for them to take.

Does he realize why he is supposed to stay indoors? Why is he not supposed to run outside?
An adult realize why they would not want to go outside, say for example during the evening. H/she can think about getting mugged, "lost" (dog example), kidnapped, this is a few thoughts alone why yet they can occur right away.

This is the thinking I am referring to. Wiki has a complete article about it under critical thinking, frankly only humans are listed in there as those capable..


This whole issue is pretty pointless because of the varying definitions of souls, I had asked and asked before many times what is a soul to someone. Not everyone has the same concept. That is why I asked for Lucia to provide her definition of the debate vs her friends, so I (or some of us) can see eye to eye on her case and judge her debate that way, not from our views.

But as of right now, we're arguing in my perspective.
(Keep in mind I have not stated I do believe if 'animals' do or do not have a soul)

 

[Reba]

I can't vote without my religious beliefs coming into place here, and we've been asked by the OP not to discuss religion here. Frankly, soul and religion are intertwined. There's no two ways about it, so it's hard to even say anything here ...

Same here.