Differences - sign language & local spoken language

VacationGuy234 said:
It depends on the goal of the new language. If the goal is to break away from the other language and present a better one, it's a noble goal. Although, if the language isn't adopted the goal might not be fully met. On the other hand, if the goal is to get more people to use it then your logic would be correct. This was the case in the development of Modern English given the diverse amount of native speakers(the language became a Kluge).

To answer the question you have to look at the usage and satisfaction of a sign language that went that route from a native perspective. You need the native perspective to see if it meets the majority of user needs(English is far from perfect, but fits the needs). On here, the majority of people(who post, or are the loudest) use ASL. Because of the amount ASL users this forum might not be the best place for answers to your original post.
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The point to consider here is that signed languages are in no way connected with spoken languages.
 
Jane B. said:
How did someone named Alice (whoever that is) get into this? I made no mention of an "Alice".
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It's deaf history. Alice is the reason we have ASL.

She was the child neighbor of Gallaudet, who inspired him to start education here for deaf children.

Alice Cogswell.
 
BecLak said:
The point to consider here is that signed languages are in no way connected with spoken languages.
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In no way is a very broad term.

The difference between ASL and English signs | Signing Savvy Blog | ASL Sign Language Video Dictionary

ASL signs vs. English signs

ASL (American Sign Language) is a complete, unique language developed by deaf people, for deaf people and is used in its purest form by people who are Deaf. Being its own language, it not only has its own vocabulary, but also its own grammar that differs from English.
Signed Exact English is a system to communicate in English through signs and fingerspelling. Signed Exact English, in most cases, uses English grammar (that is, you are signing English). The vocabulary is a combination of ASL signs, modified ASL signs, or unique English signs.
The reason English signs often vary from ASL is to add clarity to the sign so that the exact English word meant for the conversation is understood. One example would be the sign for CAR. In ASL, the sign for CAR is two A hands gesturing like they are holding onto and moving a steering wheel. In ASL, this sign is used for any automobile you control with a steering wheel, including a car, truck, bus, van, etc. The English sign for CAR is two C hands, one on top of the other, moving away from each other. If you wanted to specify what type of car, the hand shape is modified to include the initial of the type of vehicle (c for car, v for van, b for bus, j for jeep, etc.).

BecLak, the connection to spoken langugage does not have to be one for one. It can be customary to align with native communication.

Signs like graphs are symbols that may or may not have phonetic meaning. It depends on the language(not just sign language).
 
Hey, why not make spoken English more like ASL? Spoken English has way to many extra words and too many words that have different meanings. ASL is to the point, direct, gets the message across in quick manner.
 
LoveBlue said:
Hey, why not make spoken English more like ASL? Spoken English has way to many extra words and too many words that have different meanings. ASL is to the point, direct, gets the message across in quick manner.
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I'm all for making changes to our current language, but since we do not have an official language, and you would need to get 390+ million people to do it, all I can say is good luck.
 
LoveBlue said:
Hey, why not make spoken English more like ASL?
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no that won't work phonetically. It's like changing our keyboards to ABC format.

LoveBlue said:
Spoken English has way to many extra words and too many words that have different meanings. ASL is to the point, direct, gets the message across in quick manner.
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simple - be blunt and concise then.

"Do I look fat?" -Yes
"Do I look fat?" -"No not really but it's just a couple extra pounds."

How you say it in English is entirely up to you as there are many different ways to say it. You can simply and easily keep it concise and terse. (notice what I just did there? :lol: )
 
caz12 said:
no not marthas vineyard.They spanish people and poor definatly South American,i thought Marths vinyard in Boston
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No, it is an island off the State of Maine; in fact, I think it is part of Maine, too.
 
Jane B. said:
Lucky???
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Fortunate. Jiro was describing signed languages in some countries as being alot sketchier, where you have to rely on lip-reading and context. I'm happy that we have ASL, a full language that can be understood on its own.
 
Jiro said:
no that won't work phonetically. It's like changing our keyboards to ABC format.
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But it's a great comeback to have ready when people suggest other languages should be more like English.
 
Jane B. said:
My expectation would be that when developing another way to communicate in a country that already has a majority language that new way to exchange information would closely follow the grammar of what has been in use.
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I think that would make sense if the goal was to make a language optimized for understanding by hearing people or late-deafened people, or anyone else already using English. But I think the goal was to provide for deaf people in a way that was optimal for them, that was best suited to the way they would naturally tend to communicate.

I understand what you're saying: why bring/develop a new language for a community that lives within an English speaking community, so that the larger community and the smaller one can't communicate easily, right?

And I think it's a valid concern, but much more important is that deaf people have a langauge that is naturally suited to communicating manually.

Especially since so many ASL users are very good at using/understanding PSE, so if all you learn is how to sign in English, you can still communicate with them. Nothing really lost, and the Deaf community has a strong language, not something patched together awkwardly from another medium.
 
caz12 said:
no not marthas vineyard.They spanish people and poor definatly South American,i thought Marths vinyard in Boston
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Thank you for clarification, Caz, I also am interested to know about this South American community. :D
 
Why do people who speak English as their only language, insist that everyone around them has to speak English? Now you're suggesting that signers switch to English grammar to be better understood? That's nothing new. But consider this, what if the tables were turned on you....? :hmm:
 
BecLak said:
Why do people who speak English as their only language, insist that everyone around them has to speak English? Now you're suggesting that signers switch to English grammar to be better understood?
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Not at all. I love ASL, am currently learning it, which is going great. Sometimes I wish everyone would learn it, but I always get that way when I'm excited about something. When I sign I try to use good ASL grammar, and very much enjoy using it. I don't like signing with English grammar, and when I catch myself doing it (like if I'm overwhelmed and going too fast) the first thing I do is go back and try to figure out how I should have done it in ASL. Then try to do better next time. So again, no.

I don't think that anyone should have to switch to English grammar. I thought I'd been clear in my support for ASL, ever since I started posting here a year and a half ago.

What I did say, and this was in response and addressed to Jane B's questions, is that since she seems very frustrated with ASL, maybe trying to learn it but not having the best time, wishing it were more like English and not understanding why it isn't, even feeling like it *ought* to be, is that:

(1) ASL has good reason not to be structured like English.
(2) No one is forcing her to learn ASL, she does have the option of signing in English.

By 2, I in no way mean that any other signer has an obligation to switch to English to accommodate anyone. What I do mean is that people have options. She seems to feel like "I'm frustrated with ASL and I shouldn't have to be, so they should have made it more like English" or something like that. What I'm saying is that the option she seems to be wishing existed does, and it's PSE. No reason to attack ASL. If it's not for her, it's not for her. My gut would say keep trying, but I make my decisions and she makes hers, which is how it should be. We're all wired differently.

So then what happens? She goes out into the world and interacts with ASL users. Do they have to switch to English? Of course not. They can choose not to. If they are able to and they *want* to, they have that option. I have often seen champ ASL users interacting with people who sign something much more like English. They could sit and stare at each other and not communicate, but that doesn't seem to happen. They figure it out. Usually each person adapts to the other based on their own skill set.

This tells me that Jane will very likely not be totally screwed. So, again, do your best, do what you can, but because you'll probably be fine, there's no reason to attack ASL. It's an awesome language, and as far as I've seen in real life, many of the people who use it are really sharp, generous, and flexible.

That you've decided and managed to twist this around in your head into some sort of oppression of ASL users is beyond odd.

BecLak said:
...what if the tables were turned on you....?
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And turning tables? I did that myself, on purpose, when I decided to study a language very different from my native language, as intensely as my brain will endure (literally. I work on the stuff until I get dizzy, then lie down, then start again as soon as I can feel myself starting to recover. and continue that way until I pass out for good.) So yeah, throw me into that briar patch - it's my favorite place in the world.
 
amylynne said:
Not at all. I love ASL, am currently learning it, which is going great. Sometimes I wish everyone would learn it, but I always get that way when I'm excited about something. When I sign I try to use good ASL grammar, and very much enjoy using it. I don't like signing with English grammar, and when I catch myself doing it (like if I'm overwhelmed and going too fast) the first thing I do is go back and try to figure out how I should have done it in ASL. Then try to do better next time. So again, no.

I don't think that anyone should have to switch to English grammar. I thought I'd been clear in my support for ASL, ever since I started posting here a year and a half ago.

What I did say, and this was in response and addressed to Jane B's questions, is that since she seems very frustrated with ASL, maybe trying to learn it but not having the best time, wishing it were more like English and not understanding why it isn't, even feeling like it *ought* to be, is that:

(1) ASL has good reason not to be structured like English.
(2) No one is forcing her to learn ASL, she does have the option of signing in English.

By 2, I in no way mean that any other signer has an obligation to switch to English to accommodate anyone. What I do mean is that people have options. She seems to feel like "I'm frustrated with ASL and I shouldn't have to be, so they should have made it more like English" or something like that. What I'm saying is that the option she seems to be wishing existed does, and it's PSE. No reason to attack ASL. If it's not for her, it's not for her. My gut would say keep trying, but I make my decisions and she makes hers, which is how it should be. We're all wired differently.

So then what happens? She goes out into the world and interacts with ASL users. Do they have to switch to English? Of course not. They can choose not to. If they are able to and they *want* to, they have that option. I have often seen champ ASL users interacting with people who sign something much more like English. They could sit and stare at each other and not communicate, but that doesn't seem to happen. They figure it out. Usually each person adapts to the other based on their own skill set.

This tells me that Jane will very likely not be totally screwed. So, again, do your best, do what you can, but because you'll probably be fine, there's no reason to attack ASL. It's an awesome language, and as far as I've seen in real life, many of the people who use it are really sharp, generous, and flexible.

That you've decided and managed to twist this around in your head into some sort of oppression of ASL users is beyond odd.



And turning tables? I did that myself, on purpose, when I decided to study a language very different from my native language, as intensely as my brain will endure (literally. I work on the stuff until I get dizzy, then lie down, then start again as soon as I can feel myself starting to recover. and continue that way until I pass out for good.) So yeah, throw me into that briar patch - it's my favorite place in the world.
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This post isn't about ASL. It's about other sign languages. ASL is only the background for the post question. The OP already knows about ASL.
 
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