Difference between Audism & Racism

rolling7 said:
A little off topic......

But I want to inject that speech and hearing have a total separation.
Witness the fact that there are perfect hearing kids that do not talk.
There are many levels of deafness, so not everyone is in the same boat.
However, being able to hear speech is not a requirement, if a person with hearing lose can then more power for that person.
Those that make the effort, with years of training and therapy, can speak intelligently that the hearing world can communicate with this deaf person.
Because the deaf person can not hear the speech of the hearing world, and H.I./C.I. don't help that much, it is required for the deaf person to become an expert lipreader.
The result is the deaf person being able to totally understand the hearing person and using his/her own voice reply.
As I said, out takes years of effort and help but it is truly worth the benefit of being successful.
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rolling 7 - My assumption from you using the singular 'person' is that you're referring to a face-to-face conversation with one other hearing person.

If that is so, then I would agree with you on the whole (I wouldn't say "totally understand" but "mostly understand"). I rely hugely on my lip-reading skills, as I often I get ear infections and cannot wear my HAs. Without my HAs I am able to have one-to-one conversations with my wife and kids, and people I know intimately (but not a free-flowing conversation with banter). But I'm told that the volume of my voice is often wrong. Lip-reading only identifies 20-30% of speech - the rest I fill in by body looking for contextual clues, body language and guesswork, and it is easier for me to guess what my family & close friends will talk about. With strangers, I struggle to have a conversation, but I can communicate what I need and they can generally get their main point across to me but I don't get all the details or a lot of the words. So I can go to the ticket office and get my tickets. But if the clerk attempted to chit-chat to me about her weekend and all the different random things she did, I wouldn't be able to follow as I don't know her well enough to fill in the gaps.

But lip-reading doesn't work in group settings. And hearing people are able to have a conversation without needing to see the face. In the office I used to work in, everyone sat in front of a large computer screen (or two) and you can't see their faces. It doesn't stop them talking to each other, but I'm unable to join in and it's lonely seeing everyone laughing over a joke and not knowing why they're laughing (in my more paranoid moments I wonder if they're laughing at me, like the kids at my school did). In my house, my hearing wife & kids are forever talking to each other from different rooms (impossible to lip-read through a wall!).

So lip-reading allows me to function in the hearing world (and I find that a very useful skill myself), it doesn't allow me to fully belong in the hearing world. I can't socialize in groups, or join in the office banter, or overhear some juicy gossip, or hear sweet nothings whispered in my ear, etc. It's like I'm watching the movie in grainy black and white, while everyone else sees it in 3D hi-definition colour. I'm watching the same movie, but I'm not enjoying the same experience. And it's painful to know that I'm missing out.

However my wife, family & friends are all hearing and I value them. Lip-reading helps me stay mostly (not totally) connected with them. In fact, I'm starting a one year lip-reading class next week as I want to be the best lip-reader I can be as a way of maintaining these emotional ties. In return my family are going to learn sign language with me, so they will be with me in my journey as I make new connections with people who share my deaf identity. Once I learn BSL, I'll be able to participate in social groups, join in the banter, and see the gossip, and laugh at the punchlines to a deaf joke. I'm hoping to have that sense of richer sense of belonging, rather than just functioning. Being bi-cultural will give me the most flexibility and options for my life as my hearing deteriorates.
 
AJWSmith said:
Maybe we need two words. One to describe the discriminatory superior attitude of hearing people, and another to describe how hearing shapes a person's way of thinking and perceiving ("hearing perspective"?). It's inevitable that hearing shapes the way a person thinks & perceives the world, but it's not inevitable that a person will always believe they're superior because they're hearing. After all, aren't you an example of this jillio?

(link to jillio's thread: http://www.alldeaf.com/our-world-our-culture/93940-i-have-question-3.html#post1913599)
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that would be
audism and audist
 
AJWSmith said:
But lip-reading doesn't work in group settings. And hearing people are able to have a conversation without needing to see the face. In the office I used to work in, everyone sat in front of a large computer screen (or two) and you can't see their faces. It doesn't stop them talking to each other, but I'm unable to join in and it's lonely seeing everyone laughing over a joke and not knowing why they're laughing (in my more paranoid moments I wonder if they're laughing at me, like the kids at my school did). In my house, my hearing wife & kids are forever talking to each other from different rooms (impossible to lip-read through a wall!).

So lip-reading allows me to function in the hearing world (and I find that a very useful skill myself), it doesn't allow me to fully belong in the hearing world. I can't socialize in groups, or join in the office banter, or overhear some juicy gossip, or hear sweet nothings whispered in my ear, etc. It's like I'm watching the movie in grainy black and white, while everyone else sees it in 3D hi-definition colour. I'm watching the same movie, but I'm not enjoying the same experience. And it's painful to know that I'm missing out.
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well, thats the nature of being deaf is similar as being an outcase in a hearing-ablist society, all this you described above, the 'disability' aspect of being deaf in the home/social environment (disability takes on many levels, politics and public spending is another one which most of us are awareness but majority of Deaf people arent familiar with its true 'political nature', largely because there is alot of bullshit in-side fighting amougst the Deaf community which delays and distorts the whole issue further (and dare i say , much to the glee of those hearing teachers of the deafs, advisors, funders who favours research to 'hearing loss'...(sic) )
it is painful yes, we know, WE KNOW, and thats what we adopt Our rules, like using subtitles, catch up at Deaf club I get TONS more news and going on's... i am so tired of hearing peope - they're boring and judegmental.

also those things you describes lke missing out on sweet nothings, office banter, are hearing values, (i see alot of that on TV, and in a similar way as some hearing people its a subsititute for real life...

yes its like watching grainy black and white tv, not quality representation of life. If you choose to Be Deaf, less of this matters, and at Deaf club we share how funny. strange hearing people are, not how smart or how much more fun they're having...
the WHOLE table turns around!!
if you have tocease yearning the hearing way so much and sorry i dont know what to say....
maybe time is what you need, and that might mean 5, 10 years...
 
no,think about it, what are her opinions on audism?
in much the same way, do you have to be a woman to be a feminst?,
and even women can be sexist...
 
AJWSmith said:
Reading the discussion here on this thread is helping me enormously to clarify my own thoughts. I now know that I need to further clarify what I wrote earlier (see final paragraph in bold):



However if a person, Deaf or Hearing, imposes their values on another (especially if the other is different) then this is evidence that that person is acting from a position of superiority, even if they verbally deny it and loudly claim that they treat others as equals. An example would be if I said that I totally respect the man in a wheelchair and think of him as an equal, but then to say (or think) that actually he would enjoy life far more if he could walk because it has given me so much enjoyment. What I have done, most likely unconsciously, is transferred what I value personally and imposed that value on another person. There's nothing wrong in me valuing my ability to walk (or a person valuing their hearing), but a line has been crossed when I insist that another should value it.​
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That is a very interesting way of putting it.

I'm not sure if it's quite the same thing as you're saying here, but I think we as humans have a tendency to project ourselves onto other people. We imagine that because we like something, another person would to. Same with dislikes. While people share common humanity, that doesn't mean their interests, likes, dislikes, prejudices, artistic tastes, philosophy, religions, and so on, are also the same.
 
DeafCaroline said:
AJW - what you said: "But if the hearing loss stops that person from interacting as a "normal" hearing person, then it gets problematic. Many deaf people grow up believing that they are broken and defective because they cannot be like the hearing people around them. They may be able to hear sounds, but they cannot hear speech well enough. And if the hearing loss is so severe that oral interaction with hearing people is impossible, then it is downright damaging to the deaf individual to live according to a hearing perspective as they are totally isolated."

Problematic, isolation, broken, defective - those feelings are due to how hearing people think and react to deaf people. Hearing perspective is not neutral if it results in such negatives.
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right
 
Grummer said:
no,think about it, what are her opinions on audism?
in much the same way, do you have to be a woman to be a feminst?,
and even women can be sexist...
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This is precisely the point I'm trying to explore. I believe it is possible to be hearing person and not audist. Which means it is possible to have a hearing perspective and not be audist. But I'm trying to work out what it is that distinguishes an audist hearing person from a non-audist?

Hearing people don't choose to be born hearing, in the same way we don't choose to be born deaf. But because they have the sense of hearing & are able to fully access speech, hearing people have a functionality that shapes the way they perceive and interact with the world and they can't help but have that perspective. This is where audism is different from racism, because there is a functional difference between deaf and hearing. And this function (or lack of) affects the way information is received and processed, thus how a perspective developed. And I'm not saying that having this function (or not) is good, just different.
 
AJWSmith said:
This is precisely the point I'm trying to explore. I believe it is possible to be hearing person and not audist. Which means it is possible to have a hearing perspective and not be audist. But I'm trying to work out what it is that distinguishes an audist hearing person from a non-audist?

Hearing people don't choose to be born hearing, in the same way we don't choose to be born deaf. But because they have the sense of hearing & are able to fully access speech, hearing people have a functionality that shapes the way they perceive and interact with the world and they can't help but have that perspective. This is where audism is different from racism, because there is a functional difference between deaf and hearing. And this function (or lack of) affects the way information is received and processed, thus how a perspective developed. And I'm not saying that having this function (or not) is good, just different.
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that's easy
the ones who sticks up for Deaf rights are the non-audist, the rest are unwittingly an audist or ignorant at best...
 
Grummer said:
that's easy
the ones who sticks up for Deaf rights are the non-audist, the rest are unwittingly an audist or ignorant at best...
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My initial reaction to this comment was "That's too simple. Surely it's much more complex than that!". But I've continued to think and analyse what is audism and I realise that Grummer has hit the nail on the head. At the very heart of audism is how a person treats somebody who is deaf. It doesn't matter what they say or consciously think (eg. thinking "I'm not superior") - it boils down to whether you insist that a deaf person has equal rights to a hearing person, thus the right to live in a non-hearing way.
 
Grummer said:
that's easy
the ones who sticks up for Deaf rights are the non-audist, the rest are unwittingly an audist or ignorant at best...
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I see to it they don't stay ignorant for long.
And yeah, I still get invited to parties. :D
 
Here is a perspective that I has been with my stance on the issue for awhile, and I think falls in place with many of the oral and HH types. I also think that this perspective is in the minority, as in most people are not faced with the challenge that is only unique to oral/HH/CI-oral.

It makes the overall definition a little complicated, it adds another corner of what I'd like to label as "realism". If audists are the republicans, and reverse-audists are the democrats, this little corner is what I think as the independent party, call it the green, centrist, whatever works.

If you asked me 4 or 5 years ago, I wouldn't have had a shred of what audism meant nor was I even aware of the prejudice that Deaf has been subjected to. Note that I say Deaf, not deaf because in my eyes the Deaf encounter the whole prejudice deal moreso than the deaf. When I say Deaf, I say people who are either with profound loss, or d/Deaf of Deaf parents.

Ok, now with the disclaimer across this is an explanation.
We all know that there are lots of deaf/hh kids who don't make the cut in mainstream. Some flunk out, some never do well, can't hear the teacher, whatever. Well, what about the oral kids who made it through and are successful? This group is obviously not going to have many people in it.

These kids have made it through K-12, and gone to college, successfully obtained a 4-year degree with minimal difficulties. Some of them have may have even surpassed this and obtained a master's or phD. They also work or get jobs with the hearing world without as much of a challenge as Deaf might have.

Now keep in mind that while growing up hearing, these deaf/hh are accustomed to events of hearing nature. That includes the courses, activities, sports, and so on. They might play football or basketball with the college/varsity team of all hearing kids, go on debate teams/MUN, run for All-student-board, go to the engineer or computer programmer's club, can do guitar or classical piano, attend biology and science conventions, they do everything the hearing world does with just one setback. They just can't hear as well. Might be able to hear some, but not all.

Now when it comes to a situation to where someone posts on AD asking what they or their kid should do, normally I'd be fine with the Deaf taking care of it by telling them to check out gallaudet, RIT/NTID, petition for ADA rights, whatever. I don't see anything wrong with Deaf rights and activism, it's a model like a civil right's movement.

Until it gets complicated.

When it's another HH/oral person I can identify with - some of them are not ready to lose out on what goes on in their world. Neurosurgeons group, environmental ecologists club, musicians club, thermodynamics physicists association, or rocket scientists club of University name here, these are all things that right now, most of the time only the hearing world is going to offer this, it will not be available at gallaudet or RIT or deaf-related.

We also don't intend to fight for ADA rights to have them force unrealistic accommodations upon a whole group on a certain situation because we know it is not going to accomplish anything at this point in time right now. We don't intend to transfer to gallaudet or a deaf town that has people who also do this or something, because what is happening is going on in places that can't be controlled. Agriculture science, petroleum sciences are only going to be hot where it is at. We know that learning ASL is not going to help us with the situation very well, and we also know that adopting a Deaf attitude has little to do with what we need to accomplish.

The hearing have, and probably still will have the upper hand in the jobs and group for these types of subjects. In the meantime, if this group intends to stick with their interests lie in that can't be offered from a pro-deaf community, they have no choices but to continue doing what they are doing unless we intend to just give up on the spot.

This is the little corner that I'm trying to label as the realists, no matter how small we are. I don't think we're being audists, but we're definitely not active in supporting pro-deaf rights in what we are doing because it doesn't change the situation right now. Maybe in 100 years, but maybe hinting at being a little selfish in this - we are thinking of ourselves.
 
DeafCaroline said:
AJW - what you said: "But if the hearing loss stops that person from interacting as a "normal" hearing person, then it gets problematic. Many deaf people grow up believing that they are broken and defective because they cannot be like the hearing people around them. They may be able to hear sounds, but they cannot hear speech well enough. And if the hearing loss is so severe that oral interaction with hearing people is impossible, then it is downright damaging to the deaf individual to live according to a hearing perspective as they are totally isolated."

Problematic, isolation, broken, defective - those feelings are due to how hearing people think and react to deaf people. Hearing perspective is not neutral if it results in such negatives.
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Exactly. What is or isn't problematic is determined by the individual and their perspective.
 
AJWSmith said:
This is precisely the point I'm trying to explore. I believe it is possible to be hearing person and not audist. Which means it is possible to have a hearing perspective and not be audist. But I'm trying to work out what it is that distinguishes an audist hearing person from a non-audist?

Hearing people don't choose to be born hearing, in the same way we don't choose to be born deaf. But because they have the sense of hearing & are able to fully access speech, hearing people have a functionality that shapes the way they perceive and interact with the world and they can't help but have that perspective. This is where audism is different from racism, because there is a functional difference between deaf and hearing. And this function (or lack of) affects the way information is received and processed, thus how a perspective developed. And I'm not saying that having this function (or not) is good, just different.
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Maybe it is just semantics, but I want to say it is possible to be hearing and not be an audist ONLY if one has the willingness to replace their hearing perspective with a Deaf perspective in dealing with anything to do with deafness.
 
AJWSmith said:
My initial reaction to this comment was "That's too simple. Surely it's much more complex than that!". But I've continued to think and analyse what is audism and I realise that Grummer has hit the nail on the head. At the very heart of audism is how a person treats somebody who is deaf. It doesn't matter what they say or consciously think (eg. thinking "I'm not superior") - it boils down to whether you insist that a deaf person has equal rights to a hearing person, thus the right to live in a non-hearing way.
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And, more importantly, the right to self determination.:cool2:
 
Restraining Order in New York state

Does anyone have any experience with getting a restraining order against a person who is not a citizen of this country? Can they get deported if they break the restraining order? Also, can restraining order be retroactive? For example if a person(s) break the law without you knowing (I found out too late) what can it be done about it?
Also, can a person who was your boss loose their job over breaking the restraining law or breaking a law while stalking someone? If they are a danger to society is there anything that can be done to remove the person who is in position of power from doing the same thing to someone else.

The reason I am asking is because I have been stalked for the past 3 years by people I barely know and I am not sure what exactly they want from me. I tried reasoning with them logically, ignoring them and even moving to a different state hoping that they would leave me alone, but nothing worked.

These people cost me several job opportunities, money and generated negativity between me and people I don't even know.


If you have any insights on how to deal with these type of people please let me know. I am not sure who to turn for help anymore.

Thank you,
Nejra Tunovic
 
Restraining orders cannot be retroactive. Find a lawyer.
 
Do you realize you posted this on All Deaf? Sounds like you need an attorney - only a few of those here.
 
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