Designing A Hearing Baby

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Thx Cloggy :)


A little example - suppose today your child (baby #1) was born. You wanted to secure its future, so you run to the bank and opened a saving account.
every month you deposited $100, $1200 per year.
By the time your child is 25 you have saved $30.000 for him/her.

Another parent had a baby (baby #2) at the same time, but this parent said to himself - great! When my child will be older I will teach it about saving money, and it will decide if he/she wants to save for future or not.
So, when the child was 10 years old, the parent explained about saving money, and the child said yes.
And ever since the child put aside $100 a month, $1200 per year. By the time the child was 25, it saved $18.000. Allll-most, almost half as much less
as the child #1.

Another parent who also had a baby (baby #3) at the same day decided do nothing.

May I point out that no matter how the child#2 and the child#3 will try to catch up they will never be able to regain lost years savings.

It's like that with CI.

Fuzzy

So u are saying that leading a deaf life means leading a dependent and wasteful life?
 
Maria, You are right and I have seen the film "Designing the Hearing Baby". Boy, that made me sad and cried because the deaf woman is trying to explain to us that this beautiful baby should not be operate for the CI. What she is trying to say is that the baby is perfect and beautiful and why would the doctors or hearing parents want to have a Cochlear Implant on just a beautiful baby? Let the baby be natural and just be deaf no matter what. I really agree with Maria about what she is saying that it is important for children to be natural the way they are until they grow old enough for them to understand about Cochlear Implant and if they want to have it. I don't care if deaf adult don't have speech problem or could not lipread. They can make a choice if they want to have Cochlear Implant. It is suppose to be a free country no matter how different we are. As for being deaf we are happy and we are use to it, of course we will have hearing aids which we can rely on sound. I am really against CI, because anything could happen in the operating room trying to fix the deaf to become normal hearing. Well, Surprise, surprise that it is not going to be perfectly normal hearing. They might become hard of hearing, but not perfect. So hearing people, wake up and smell the coffee. Please accept us as :deaf: people and don't try to change us or fix us. It is not fair at all. :ily:

I agree everythin' you said above. I feel the baby. The " deaf " baby is soo beautiful and natural. The " deaf " baby is the gift from above ... up in the sky, if you get my drift. :D

Most important of all is LOVE. We accept a deaf baby with love, no matter what. :ily: too !
 
Thx Cloggy :)


A little example - suppose today your child (baby #1) was born. You wanted to secure its future, so you run to the bank and opened a saving account.
every month you deposited $100, $1200 per year.
By the time your child is 25 you have saved $30.000 for him/her.

Another parent had a baby (baby #2) at the same time, but this parent said to himself - great! When my child will be older I will teach it about saving money, and it will decide if he/she wants to save for future or not.
So, when the child was 10 years old, the parent explained about saving money, and the child said yes.
And ever since the child put aside $100 a month, $1200 per year. By the time the child was 25, it saved $18.000. Allll-most, almost half as much less
as the child #1.

Another parent who also had a baby (baby #3) at the same day decided do nothing.

May I point out that no matter how the child#2 and the child#3 will try to catch up they will never be able to regain lost years savings.

It's like that with CI.

Fuzzy

Excellent comparison !


There´re no comparison between CI surgery and children upbringing.........
That's not the comparison. The comparison is about making a decision for your child, and the effect it has on a childs future...

And I believe the interest-rate for CI is bigger than the interest rate for money!
 
.............
How come the hearin' parents want a " quick " by havin' CI on a deaf child instead of havin' hearin' aids and have a deaf child to visit a speech therapist to learn how to talk ? What's the rush about CI ? No patience ? Lookin' for an easy way out ? Hmmm..........

There's so much wrong with your arguments, but the last sentence really shows you have no clue.

Nobody rushes in CI. It is not possible,
It's not the "easy way out",
It requires patience..

And how do you know a deaf child will not hold it against his parents that he did not get the possibility to hear.?
How do you make it to be that it can only be the child with CI that would resent it's parents? Isn't it just as possible the other way around.
For the child with CI, it can stop using CI and start a deaf life.
For the deaf child.... not as easy to get CI and start a hearing life..
 
What you are talking about is about postive discipline to expose the children into right path.

You are missing the point.
That COMPLETELY has nothing to do with it.
I am talking about TIME TIME TIME TIME. ZEIT ZEIT ZEIT.

It is important that you understand - that the time of implanting, like the time of investing, THE TIME ALONE, makes a BIG difference in the end.
The earlier you save, the more money you have = the sooner you implant the better you understand hear sound. that simple ....

NOTHING as much as TIME matters.


So u are saying that leading a deaf life means leading a dependent and wasteful life?

Excuse me, but how in the world did you come to this conclusion!?
I was nowhere around that !!

I said- the sooner you implant, the better the results!
where did I say late implanting or no implanting leds to wasteful life ?!?!
Like I wrote to Liebling, when it comes to the age of implanting TIME ALONE MATTERS.
That is not as saying "anything else is waste". That is NOT what I said. I am saying time, time, time matters. that's all. Please read more carefuly.


A person calls the kid's name when standing behind them, the kid doesnt respond and that is done several times...

The fact is that I work with kids who do not benefit from their CIs and I am gonna state that fact here whether u like it or not. Maybe the parents dont want to share why the CIs didnt really work for them and it is their right to keep that to themselves.

If you don't know why the implanted kids does not respond , in other words why the CI is not enabling them to hear better - you have no right to pass judgment about CI being "not good". Because maybe this child WASTED the opportunity to hear, maybe this child was implanted TOO LATE, you have no way to know why!
and even if the CI simply didn't helped as much as it was hoped for it doesn't mean it won't for ANYNOE ELSE.

So, it is not the matter of me "like it or not"- it's you - you are BIASED.
You are set to prove to me CI is not good, but you can not do that without knowing ALL THE FACTS.

BTW as I've said in earlier post - maybe this child doesn't hear being called upon, but maybe it can hear a dog barking, a car passing - something he/she couldn't before, not even with HAs. At least it will stop at the sound of a passing car.
That's enough gain.


Fuzzy
 
? Lookin' for an easy way out ? Hmmm

Please tell me what do you know about CI and ALL the work involved with teaching the child to hear. Tell me HOW do you teach the CI-ed child to hear.

You know what is easy way out? let the child go as deaf, learn ASL and that's that. THAT is the easiest option.

Fuzzy
 
You are missing the point.
That COMPLETELY has nothing to do with it.
I am talking about TIME TIME TIME TIME. ZEIT ZEIT ZEIT.

It is important that you understand - that the time of implanting, like the time of investing, THE TIME ALONE, makes a BIG difference in the end.
The earlier you save, the more money you have = the sooner you implant the better you understand hear sound. that simple ....

NOTHING as much as TIME matters.




Excuse me, but how in the world did you come to this conclusion!?
I was nowhere around that !!

I said- the sooner you implant, the better the results!
where did I say late implanting or no implanting leds to wasteful life ?!?!
Like I wrote to Liebling, when it comes to the age of implanting TIME ALONE MATTERS.
That is not as saying "anything else is waste". That is NOT what I said. I am saying time, time, time matters. that's all. Please read more carefuly.




If you don't know why the implanted kids does not respond , in other words why the CI is not enabling them to hear better - you have no right to pass judgment about CI being "not good". Because maybe this child WASTED the opportunity to hear, maybe this child was implanted TOO LATE, you have no way to know why!
and even if the CI simply didn't helped as much as it was hoped for it doesn't mean it won't for ANYNOE ELSE.

So, it is not the matter of me "like it or not"- it's you - you are BIASED.
You are set to prove to me CI is not good, but you can not do that without knowing ALL THE FACTS.

BTW as I've said in earlier post - maybe this child doesn't hear being called upon, but maybe it can hear a dog barking, a car passing - something he/she couldn't before, not even with HAs. At least it will stop at the sound of a passing car.
That's enough gain.


Fuzzy

Nah, not setting out to prove u anything. Just simply stating the fact that we get some children who dont benefit from their CIs. Never said it was the CI that was the problem. Just told u that I dont know why cuz I am neutral about it.

U talked about saving money the earlier the better and compared to the essence of time in getting a CI so I am asking if u mean that if the child doesnt get a CI early, then it is wasteful living a life as being deaf? Simply asking ..all u had to say was yes or no.

In fact, I found out that one of those children is going back to the dr to investigate to why she is not getting benefit at all. I asked why isnt that child getting anything from the CIs and as usual I got "I dont know." I am not a doctor so I cant test the CIs themselves. If I dont know why but know that there is a fact that there are children who dont get benefit from their CIs, I will post it. Nothing to do with saying CIs are bad or whatever..just simply stating the facts of what I have seen and experienced.

Dont know what is your beef..seems like my comments become personal to u? :dunno:
 
Please tell me what do you know about CI and ALL the work involved with teaching the child to hear. Tell me HOW do you teach the CI-ed child to hear.

You know what is easy way out? let the child go as deaf, learn ASL and that's that. THAT is the easiest option.

Fuzzy

Hearing children naturally acquire spoken language thru their auditory channels and deaf children naturally acquire ASL through the visual channel and both are equally easy. Why should deaf children have to work harder while the hearing kids get the easy way out? As long as acquiring language is easy for the deaf children, the more motivated they will be about learning. Too often, many deaf children are frustrated with trying to acquire language via the spoken form and by the time they enter school, their frustration level is so high ruining their motivation to learn. See that toooo often and I prefer deaf children to learn ASL for language development and spoken English as a 2nd language or parralell.
 
Nah, not setting out to prove u anything. Just simply stating the fact that we get some children who dont benefit from their CIs. Never said it was the CI that was the problem. Just told u that I dont know why cuz I am neutral about it.

Actually no, you are not neutral,
you have a hidden agenda which is passively and manipulatively proving that CI is not as useful as people say it is. Otherwise why would you just "state such fact"?
And for comparison - everybody knows the HAs do work, they do amplify sound all the same way,
and just because one person does not receive equal benefit from it as the next one doesn't meant "it does not work". The same applies to CI- just because SOME children in your workplace seem not to receive as much benefit from CI as they should, does not mean the CI is not as successful in restoring ability to hear as it is told.

Any hearing aid has an ability to assist with hearing in exactly the same way, how well will it work in practice for a person depends on the very person who wears it.
I know I receive far better benefits from my HA than a "born ASL" Hoh/deaf whose audio test clearly shows his hearing is much better than mine. Why is that? I have a lot more practice at hearing and speaking than that person, plain and simple.

U talked about saving money the earlier the better and compared to the essence of time in getting a CI so I am asking if u mean that if the child doesnt get a CI early, then it is wasteful living a life as being deaf? Simply asking ..all u had to say was yes or no.

Actually NO, I could not say yes or not to that because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. HOW the child lives its life has nothing to do with having CI or not.

Have you asked me "did the child wasted TIME having its surgery done later than sooner?" - then yeah, I would answer YES, it did. Did the child wasted its life because of that "do it later decision" - I woulld say NO, not neccessarily. Too bad you can't see the difference of what you and I are saying. Please recognize that we are talking about different subjects here.


Hearing children naturally acquire spoken language thru their auditory channels and deaf children naturally acquire ASL through the visual channel and both are equally easy. Why should deaf children have to work harder while the hearing kids get the easy way out?

Sadly, because the deaf children live in overwhelmingly hearing enviroment, the enviroment that depends on ALL senses.
It is much simpler and better for the deaf person to acquire some hearing and speaking skills to live in such enviroment.
After all, if you go to the store or are plain out on the street, you have to speak, not sign, to people around you.

Too often, many deaf children are frustrated with trying to acquire language via the spoken form and by the time they enter school, their frustration level is so high ruining their motivation to learn.

I agree that the deaf children have a hard time learning spoken English and that is why I believe the CI is wonderful invention that would help these children acquire spoken language much easier.

but that's separate subject - At the same time I don't believe the deaf child HAS TO acquire the perfect spoken language ability. To me it's not neccessary. Indeed history shows the deaf are able to live independent lives wihout having to speak or hear. But, once again this is separate subject, one that has nothing to do with the efficiency of HAs, CIs, or benefits of early implantation. Or even the benefits of acquiring speech.

Fuzzy
 
Actually no, you are not neutral,
you have a hidden agenda which is passively and manipulatively proving that CI is not as useful as people say it is. Otherwise why would you just "state such fact"?
And for comparison - everybody knows the HAs do work, they do amplify sound all the same way,
and just because one person does not receive equal benefit from it as the next one doesn't meant "it does not work". The same applies to CI- just because SOME children in your workplace seem not to receive as much benefit from CI as they should, does not mean the CI is not as successful in restoring ability to hear as it is told.

Any hearing aid has an ability to assist with hearing in exactly the same way, how well will it work in practice for a person depends on the very person who wears it.
I know I receive far better benefits from my HA than a "born ASL" Hoh/deaf whose audio test clearly shows his hearing is much better than mine. Why is that? I have a lot more practice at hearing and speaking than that person, plain and simple.



Actually NO, I could not say yes or not to that because it has nothing to do with what I am saying. HOW the child lives its life has nothing to do with having CI or not.

Have you asked me "did the child wasted TIME having its surgery done later than sooner?" - then yeah, I would answer YES, it did. Did the child wasted its life because of that "do it later decision" - I woulld say NO, not neccessarily. Too bad you can't see the difference of what you and I are saying. Please recognize that we are talking about different subjects here.




Sadly, because the deaf children live in overwhelmingly hearing enviroment, the enviroment that depends on ALL senses.
It is much simpler and better for the deaf person to acquire some hearing and speaking skills to live in such enviroment.
After all, if you go to the store or are plain out on the street, you have to speak, not sign, to people around you.



I agree that the deaf children have a hard time learning spoken English and that is why I believe the CI is wonderful invention that would help these children acquire spoken language much easier.

but that's separate subject - At the same time I don't believe the deaf child HAS TO acquire the perfect spoken language ability. To me it's not neccessary. Indeed history shows the deaf are able to live independent lives wihout having to speak or hear. But, once again this is separate subject, one that has nothing to do with the efficiency of HAs, CIs, or benefits of early implantation. Or even the benefits of acquiring speech.

Fuzzy

U can think whatever u want. That is your view and I have mine. I am neutral when it comes to CIs whether u want to believe it or not. Only thing is I am not neutral about is not providing a visual language for deaf/hh children causing them to be delayed in language and that goes for children who have CIs.
 
Yeah, sr171, I especially agree with your "......intrinsic motivation......" and if we are talking about young people, posties or pre's, they aren't really at the age to have something to strive for. I'd give the posties the edge there, tho.

I would have to agree that most young people don't know what they want whatever it may be. I may have been a rarity but I knew what I wanted when young.
 
So, deaf children will go through a babbling etc. phase as well.?

Doesn't the babbling indicate that the child can hear. Doesn't it indicate that it is excersizing the voice, using the feedback from sound to modify the way it makes sound. Doesn't the child try to imitate the sounds around it.

Are you telling me that this is not a prelude to talking, to speech.?
Do you really think that a child will go from not hearing to talking without going through these fases...?? Do you really think these phases are not needed for any child - hearing - to master speech.?

No, cloggy, babbling does not always indicate that a child can hear, any more than a deaf older child, adolescent, or adult making vocal sounds indictes that they can hear. The feedback the child receives is not auditory stimuli, but the reaction from the parent or caregiver. That is the reinforcement. These phases are soon replaced with attempts to imitate what is heard in a hearing child. The deaf child will not progress to this stage inthe same way a hearing child does. In addition, deaf children exposed to sign from infancy hand babble.
 
What exactly is WRONG with giving a deaf child a gift of hearing?


Surgical intervention enables a totally deaf child to hear, one that otherwise would not benefit form conventional HAs.
The earlier implanation, the more benefits of CI. To prevent, to take away receiving such a gift is as bad as linguistic restriction.


It's not the DEVICES that are bad, it's people's close-mindedness.

Fuzzy

Where did you see the word wrong in my post?

And regarding your second assertion, surgical intervention does not always allow a completely deaf child to hear. Even the profoundly deaf have some degree of residual hearing. That residual hearing is destroyed through implantation. The implant is not always successful. What then?
 
On the other hand, I often wonder what the "true" rate of success the CI is? IF, all CI'ers, and all audiologists & surgeons adhered to the following: CI success= 1% to the surgeon, hmmmm, say, 10% to the audiologist, then about 90% of the effort must come from the CI'er! I opine that a lot of the CI "failures" (stats) would be be skewed by the CI'er for any number of reasons.

Even still, I have come to understand the success rate is high, higher than that garnered from a hearing aid.

Note I've left out the politics here and that's the scope I wish this to remain in as there are any number of topics dealing with the larger picture.

While the success rate is high when measured in terms of creating some degree of sound perception, when the parameters are narrowed, the success rates decline.
 
I continuously see references to the fact that "not all benefit", but I rarely if ever see an explanation of why these people are not benefiting. Most of the time, the people who keep reminding us of these failures have never investigated anything about why the CI recipients have not flourished. In many these types of posts, the insinuation is that it is failing because of the implant technology is not proper, rather than personal factors that can be controlled in many cases (which are not investigated).

My opinion is that if someone wants to tell a story about how they consistently see people that have failed implant experiences, they should give the information so we can see why, such as the items I describe in my post "We Need Current Info Before Writing Off Cochlear Implants."

So, if a child is implanted, andis unable to fully function in an oral environment even withthe implant, it is that child's fault?
 
So you agree that a hearing child would be able to accomplish anything a deaf child can accomplish.. (Otherwise - you wouldn't have reversed the question... you just don't want to admit the obvious...)

Regarding your question "what is it that a deaf child cannot do that a hearing child can"

Just a couple of things come into my mind....
Hear the birds,
Hear insects,
Hear the sea,
Hear someone whisper,
etc. etc.

Ahhh, yes, I know that they cannot perceive those sound auditorily, but thery can see the insects and the birds with a visual accuity that a hearing child can't. The ocean they can feel, and a whisper can be a carress against their cheek. These are all sensations that the hearing child misses because they are not attuned to them. Just as a deaf child has to be trained to use an HA or a CI to hear, a hearing child has to be trained to feel sound and use vision accuity. Is a sound heard really any preferable to a sound felt ? After all, the deaf experience sound in its most fundamental form; as vibration. That is the starting place.

Didn't you know that Jillio?

And I am not saying that hearing is more important than not being able to hear (god forbid !!), I'm just saying that a hearing child has all the possibilities of a deaf child. And in addition, a hearing child can ... hear.

And a deaf child has all of the possibilites of a hearing child. A deaf can experience their world every bit as fully as a hearing child can. They simply do in in a different mode.

So, when my daughter was born deaf, we made it possible for her to hear as well.
How is that a bad thing....???

When did I ever say it was a bad thing, cloggy? I've only said that hearing was not the most important thing.
 
To me, is mainly important is see and feeling than hear anything...

See the bird & insect fly beautiful
Watch the sea waves with beautiful feeling
We can do "whisper" in sign lanuage then the people don´t understand us... I do "whisper" my both sons with sign language... no problem...
etc. etc.

I bet Jillio would agree with me because she has a deaf son.

To me is also important to learn to know anything better and accept to learn anything.

It doesn´t mean that you are a bad parent for make decision for your daughter. I respect your decision as parent when I see different as you.

I absolutely agree with you, Leibling! I have said it often....music seen is as beautiful as music heard when I talked about watching my son's signing choir perform. And that goes with any other sound. For instance, feeling the crash of a wave with your body is just as exciting as hearing a wave crash, and on and on.
 
You are mistaken - they all benefit more or less. Even if the device, CI or HA, enables them to hear but a truck passing, whereas they couldn't hear that before, it IS a BENEFIT. If the device enables them to hear what they could never hear before, then it IS a gift.

The problem with many is that they think CI is supposed to 100% replace normal hearing. If it doesn't, then it "failed".

Many pple here also think all it takes to hear is to have surgery. Unfortunately it is not - implantation is just the beginning, the rest is HARD WORK at learning to hear and speak for many years.

Is it worth it? Absolutely!
By being able to hear, even just a little, you gain more independence. The same way you do when you have TTY and you don't have to beg anyone to make the call for you - you have a device to be more independent. Same with being able to hear - the better you hear, the more independent you are, the better you can help those who can't hear at all.

many also don't understand, or don't WANT TO understand, that whether you like it or not the earlier implantation = the better the benefits. period.
of course, without implanted child's and it's parents own hard work even early implantation may go to waste.




See here Shel, I have a big problem accepting such a statement:

from someone who doesn't know WHY the CI is not working:



because what if the opportunity to have huge benefits from CI WAS there, only the parents and the child neglected the work they were supposed to do.


I have no problem with you not being interested in why the CI doesn't work. Of course you don't have to know why if you are not interested. You have no obligation to know. but.......


But I have a big problem with you declaring CI "useless" WITHOUT you also knowing why it "failed".
(If it failed at all).

I understand that not everyone will benefit from CI the same way. I know some people will be able to hear better and some less.
But if you say to me "I see many children who do not benefit from CI, so what kind of gift it is" - well, to be able to say such a judgement, you need to back your statement up with facts WHY it didn't work..




I think you are assuming correctly. I think many of the children might have been implanted too late.
Also, regardless of an age, the amount of work that is needed with CI turned out to be too much to handle for many parents. I can understand that. It is a huge undertaking - to teach a CI child to hear.



The HUGE difference though - anyone - even CIborg or HoHorg can learn sign language at any time.
For a deaf to have BEST benefits from CI - TIME IS CRITICAL.



Fuzzy

So, in your opinion, even a minimal amount of hearing is preferable to none?
 
Excellent comparison !



That's not the comparison. The comparison is about making a decision for your child, and the effect it has on a childs future...

And I believe the interest-rate for CI is bigger than the interest rate for money!

Fallicious comparison. You guys need to use examples that are pertinent and comparable.
 
You are missing the point.
That COMPLETELY has nothing to do with it.
I am talking about TIME TIME TIME TIME. ZEIT ZEIT ZEIT.

It is important that you understand - that the time of implanting, like the time of investing, THE TIME ALONE, makes a BIG difference in the end.
The earlier you save, the more money you have = the sooner you implant the better you understand hear sound. that simple ....

NOTHING as much as TIME matters.




Excuse me, but how in the world did you come to this conclusion!?
I was nowhere around that !!

I said- the sooner you implant, the better the results!
where did I say late implanting or no implanting leds to wasteful life ?!?!
Like I wrote to Liebling, when it comes to the age of implanting TIME ALONE MATTERS.
That is not as saying "anything else is waste". That is NOT what I said. I am saying time, time, time matters. that's all. Please read more carefuly.




If you don't know why the implanted kids does not respond , in other words why the CI is not enabling them to hear better - you have no right to pass judgment about CI being "not good". Because maybe this child WASTED the opportunity to hear, maybe this child was implanted TOO LATE, you have no way to know why!
and even if the CI simply didn't helped as much as it was hoped for it doesn't mean it won't for ANYNOE ELSE.

So, it is not the matter of me "like it or not"- it's you - you are BIASED.
You are set to prove to me CI is not good, but you can not do that without knowing ALL THE FACTS.

BTW as I've said in earlier post - maybe this child doesn't hear being called upon, but maybe it can hear a dog barking, a car passing - something he/she couldn't before, not even with HAs. At least it will stop at the sound of a passing car.
That's enough gain.


Fuzzy

Comparing developmental issues to financial issues is completely fallicious.

And, did you really say that maybe the child wasted the opportunity of learning to hear? That is the most insensitive remark I have heard in some time!
 
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