Designing A Hearing Baby

[Liebling:-)))]

Maria, You are right and I have seen the film "Designing the Hearing Baby". Boy, that made me sad and cried because the deaf woman is trying to explain to us that this beautiful baby should not be operate for the CI. What she is trying to say is that the baby is perfect and beautiful and why would the doctors or hearing parents want to have a Cochlear Implant on just a beautiful baby? Let the baby be natural and just be deaf no matter what. I really agree with Maria about what she is saying that it is important for children to be natural the way they are until they grow old enough for them to understand about Cochlear Implant and if they want to have it. I don't care if deaf adult don't have speech problem or could not lipread. They can make a choice if they want to have Cochlear Implant. It is suppose to be a free country no matter how different we are. As for being deaf we are happy and we are use to it, of course we will have hearing aids which we can rely on sound. I am really against CI, because anything could happen in the operating room trying to fix the deaf to become normal hearing. Well, Surprise, surprise that it is not going to be perfectly normal hearing. They might become hard of hearing, but not perfect. So hearing people, wake up and smell the coffee. Please accept us as people and don't try to change us or fix us. It is not fair at all.

You nailed it beautifully...

Blind people are happy what they are. They consider to hear anything is important than see. (They told me THEMSELVES).

Deaf people are happy what they are. They consider to see anything is important than hear. (I know MYSELF because I am deaf).

They CAN learn to feel, see, hear, speak without surgery. Blind have very shape feeling and know what they doing with no problem... It´s same thing with Deaf as well... They have shape eyes and know what they doing with no problem. They have everything what they really want and accept to positive their life which is wonderful.

I thank my parents to positive my deafness. Without parent´s positive, I would of hate myself and my deafness.

Look at severe disability children - they can learn to improve their development without use surgery.

 

[Buffalo]

But good thing is you didn´t implant your hearing children with CI to make them deaf. Can you image what and how hearing parents reacts when they learn that we want to make our hearing children into deaf... ?


I would consider it as selfish if I want my children to be deaf to be like me.

No, Liebling - they mean making hearing baby deaf (not with CI) by using knife to cut something out.

Suppose a deaf parent did that to make a hearing baby deaf, there will be uproar in the hearing community. Hearing parents is already doing the reverse (making their deaf baby 'hearing' by implanting CI), that is why there is uproar in the deaf community.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Are you sayin' that there are deaf people who'd think that I was too concessionary to the hearin' world for bein' okay with deaf adults gettin' CIs ? FYI, it's all about perspective. It's how deaf people like me view it, just because some hearin' people don't ACCEPT " deaf " the way deaf people are by changin' " deaf " baby to a hearin' baby. When I gave birth of my 4 children, I don't attempt to change them to deaf babies - oh, just because I am deaf. Gee, what's wrong with teachin' them sign language ? Hmm... I don't attempt to take them to a doctor and have doctor to remove their " hearin' " sounds to become deaf. I ACCEPTED all of my 4 hearin' children and it's my job to TEACH them signings. So far, they signed fluently. They are over the ages of 20 now. Of course, I don't attempt to please everyone. It's all about the baby, not adults/or parents.

Ok, here's a video about perspective between deaf and hearin' :

Different Perspective Between Deaf and Hearing «

Maria - and also excellent links as well...

 

[Liebling:-)))]

It has allready been done. Years ago by 2 lesbian Deaf woman in Canada I believe.
So, nothing new there... Go ahead J.

Is it what you are talking about?

BBC News | TALKING POINT | Couple "choose" to have a deaf baby: Should it be allowed?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

What exactly is WRONG with giving a deaf child a gift of hearing?


Surgical intervention enables a totally deaf child to hear, one that otherwise would not benefit form conventional HAs.
The earlier implanation, the more benefits of CI. To prevent, to take away receiving such a gift is as bad as linguistic restriction.


It's not the DEVICES that are bad, it's people's close-mindedness.

Fuzzy

I do not against parent´s decision on their child´s interest BUT I see the problem is they refused to open their mind to learn about deaf world and also learn to understand what Deaf Culture is about but pull their child into their own world.

If I have a disabitiy child then I would learn their world to understand where they come from, how and what I can do with my disabitily child instead of implant their damage brain into new brain because they should be smart be like me... or implant their eyes because they can see be like me... implant my child with CI because they should hear to be like me, implant a new leg or arm because they should have arm and leg be like me etc. etc. etc. I rather to open my mind to learn about my child´s interest than change their interest with the help from surgery because I have to accept the fact that they are different as me. All what I do is: wear my child with glass, HA, prostheses and help them to improve their development than take them to surgery to change them to be hear, see, new leg or arm because they should be like me.

You should ask yourself Who is closed mind?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Too bad that not all children are able to benefit from them if it is such a gift.

Exactly!

My hubby left home for go to 4 weeks Spa in Bosenberg which around one hour distance from Luxemburg last Tuesday. (4 hours distance from my area). He was very disappointed that none of deafies are there but CI and HOH. None of CI and HOH can sign... My hubby is oral but he need to use sign language with his hands. Interpreter is around but they can´t sign with their hands. He decided that that Bosenberg clinic is not right for him so he got a doctor to call Health Insurance for the permission to let him go home. They understood and gave him permit. He will come home this afternoon and said that he will tell me everything what he know from CI and HOH. Accord his 2 fax, CI users didn´t know what they really are. The description of his fax sound that the parents of CI users pull them to their own world instead of learn deaf world because they should be like them. I am thrilling to learn anything from him what he experienced there since last Tuesday.

I also shared my experience of 5 weeks spa at my thread and few threads under CI section last year where I met many CI users around and received their interesting experiences. Some CI users learn that they are really deaf at years later and begin to focus deaf culture and like it... They learn sign language... Their parents can´t do anything but accept what they are which is great. One lady, I met is very very very sad one... Their parents cannot accept that she like to involve at deaf world.

 

[Liebling:-)))]

No, Liebling - they mean making hearing baby deaf (not with CI) by using knife to cut something out.

Suppose a deaf parent did that to make a hearing baby deaf, there will be uproar in the hearing community. Hearing parents is already doing the reverse (making their deaf baby 'hearing' by implanting CI), that is why there is uproar in the deaf community.

Yes I know what a mother talked about. I agreed with her... I know a little of ASL but I try to understand what she talking about.

I only give an example...

CI to make them deaf... (something to make them to not hear)
OR
CI to make them hear...

 

[Cloggy]

In reverse, what is it that a deaf child cannot do that a hearing child can?

So you agree that a hearing child would be able to accomplish anything a deaf child can accomplish.. (Otherwise - you wouldn't have reversed the question... you just don't want to admit the obvious...)

Regarding your question "what is it that a deaf child cannot do that a hearing child can"

Just a couple of things come into my mind....
Hear the birds,
Hear insects,
Hear the sea,
Hear someone whisper,
etc. etc.

Didn't you know that Jillio?

And I am not saying that hearing is more important than not being able to hear (god forbid !!), I'm just saying that a hearing child has all the possibilities of a deaf child. And in addition, a hearing child can ... hear.

So, when my daughter was born deaf, we made it possible for her to hear as well.
How is that a bad thing....???

 

[Cloggy]

..........
What is it that a hearing child cannot do that a deaf child can?

In reverse, what is it that a deaf child cannot do that a hearing child can?

So you agree that a hearing child would be able to accomplish anything a deaf child can accomplish.. (Otherwise - you wouldn't have reversed the question... you just don't want to admit the obvious...)

Regarding your question "what is it that a deaf child cannot do that a hearing child can"

Just a couple of things come into my mind....
Hear mummie, daddy, grandparents, friends, the stranger on the street,
Hear the birds, insects,
Hear the sea, wind, leaves
Hear someone whisper sweet things in the ear...
etc. etc.

Didn't you know that Jillio?

And I am not saying that hearing is more important than not being able to hear (god forbid !!), I'm just saying that a hearing child has all the possibilities of a deaf child. And in addition, a hearing child can ... hear.

So, when my daughter was born deaf, we made it possible for her to hear as well.
How is that a bad thing....???

Is there perhaps some regret that you never gave your son that possibility?

 

[Liebling:-)))]

So you agree that a hearing child would be able to accomplish anything a deaf child can accomplish.. (Otherwise - you wouldn't have reversed the question... you just don't want to admit the obvious...)

Regarding your question "what is it that a deaf child cannot do that a hearing child can"

Just a couple of things come into my mind....
Hear the birds,
Hear insects,
Hear the sea,
Hear someone whisper,
etc. etc.

Didn't you know that Jillio?

And I am not saying that hearing is more important than not being able to hear (god forbid !!), I'm just saying that a hearing child has all the possibilities of a deaf child. And in addition, a hearing child can ... hear.

So, when my daughter was born deaf, we made it possible for her to hear as well.
How is that a bad thing....???

To me, is mainly important is see and feeling than hear anything...

See the bird & insect fly beautiful
Watch the sea waves with beautiful feeling
We can do "whisper" in sign lanuage then the people don´t understand us... I do "whisper" my both sons with sign language... no problem...
etc. etc.

I bet Jillio would agree with me because she has a deaf son.

To me is also important to learn to know anything better and accept to learn anything.

It doesn´t mean that you are a bad parent for make decision for your daughter. I respect your decision as parent when I see different as you.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Too bad that not all children are able to benefit from them if it is such a gift.

You are mistaken - they all benefit more or less. Even if the device, CI or HA, enables them to hear but a truck passing, whereas they couldn't hear that before, it IS a BENEFIT. If the device enables them to hear what they could never hear before, then it IS a gift.

The problem with many is that they think CI is supposed to 100% replace normal hearing. If it doesn't, then it "failed".

Many pple here also think all it takes to hear is to have surgery. Unfortunately it is not - implantation is just the beginning, the rest is HARD WORK at learning to hear and speak for many years.

Is it worth it? Absolutely!
By being able to hear, even just a little, you gain more independence. The same way you do when you have TTY and you don't have to beg anyone to make the call for you - you have a device to be more independent. Same with being able to hear - the better you hear, the more independent you are, the better you can help those who can't hear at all.

many also don't understand, or don't WANT TO understand, that whether you like it or not the earlier implantation = the better the benefits. period.
of course, without implanted child's and it's parents own hard work even early implantation may go to waste.

I dont get a good answer from the children's parents or audi's about why their CIs dont work for them and also, I dont have the time to investigate EVERY child that I have worked with in the last 5 years to why their CIs dont work. That is not my area...my responsibilities are to get their literacy, language, and socio-economic skills up to par and give them the best education I can provide. I am just too busy at work planning lessons, being on committees, doing reports and meetings to investigate why their CIs dont work. The fact is that they dont benefit from them and I dont ask questions. I just ask what is their language, reading, math, and writing levels are. After work, my family life is my priority.
Too bad that not all children are able to benefit from them if it is such a gift

See here Shel, I have a big problem accepting such a statement:

not all children are able to benefit from them

from someone who doesn't know WHY the CI is not working:

I dont have the time to investigate.......
That is not my area....
I am just too busy at work planning lessons....
I dont ask questions....

because what if the opportunity to have huge benefits from CI WAS there, only the parents and the child neglected the work they were supposed to do.


I have no problem with you not being interested in why the CI doesn't work. Of course you don't have to know why if you are not interested. You have no obligation to know. but.......


But I have a big problem with you declaring CI "useless" WITHOUT you also knowing why it "failed".
(If it failed at all).

I understand that not everyone will benefit from CI the same way. I know some people will be able to hear better and some less.
But if you say to me "I see many children who do not benefit from CI, so what kind of gift it is" - well, to be able to say such a judgement, you need to back your statement up with facts WHY it didn't work..

Maybe the parents dont want to admit that they didnt work hard as they should but I cant assume can I

I think you are assuming correctly. I think many of the children might have been implanted too late.
Also, regardless of an age, the amount of work that is needed with CI turned out to be too much to handle for many parents. I can understand that. It is a huge undertaking - to teach a CI child to hear.

He was very disappointed that none of deafies are there but CI and HOH. None of CI and HOH can sign

The HUGE difference though - anyone - even CIborg or HoHorg can learn sign language at any time.
For a deaf to have BEST benefits from CI - TIME IS CRITICAL.



Fuzzy

 

[Cloggy]

To me, is mainly important is see and feeling than hear anything............

You misunderstand.
I'm not saying deaf people cannot enjoy these things. But people that hear ALSO enjoy watching the sea etc.
Having more does not mean it's better. It just means that a deaf child that can hear has something extra. Perhaps an extra dimension in the experience.

 

[Cloggy]

............. If the device enables them to hear what they could never hear before, then it IS a gift.

The problem with many is that they think CI is supposed to 100% replace normal hearing. If it doesn't, then it "failed".

Many pple here also think all it takes to hear is to have surgery. Unfortunately it is not - implantation is just the beginning, the rest is HARD WORK at learning to hear and speak for many years.

Is it worth it? Absolutely!
By being able to hear, even just a little, you gain more independence. The same way you do when you have TTY and you don't have to beg anyone to make the call for you - you have a device to be more independent. Same with being able to hear - the better you hear, the more independent you are, the better you can help those who can't hear at all.

many also don't understand, or don't WANT TO understand, that whether you like it or not the earlier implantation = the better the benefits. period.
of course, without implanted child's and it's parents own hard work even early implantation may go to waste.

.................
because what if the opportunity to have huge benefits from CI WAS there, only the parents and the child neglected the work they were supposed to do.

.........
But I have a big problem with you declaring CI "useless" WITHOUT you also knowing why it "failed".
(If it failed at all).

I understand that not everyone will benefit from CI the same way. I know some people will be able to hear better and some less.
But if you say to me "I see many children who do not benefit from CI, so what kind of gift it is" - well, to be able to say such a judgement, you need to back your statement up with facts WHY it didn't work..

I think you are assuming correctly. I think many of the children might have been implanted too late.
Also, regardless of an age, the amount of work that is needed with CI turned out to be too much to handle for many parents. I can understand that. It is a huge undertaking - to teach a CI child to hear.

The HUGE difference though - anyone - even CI-borg or HoH-borg can learn sign language at any time.
For a deaf to have BEST benefits from CI - TIME IS CRITICAL.


Fuzzy

Good post Fuzzy.
You are right. It is hard work, there's a huge benefit for the child, and as you said. Timing is critical.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

Thx Cloggy


A little example - suppose today your child (baby #1) was born. You wanted to secure its future, so you run to the bank and opened a saving account.
every month you deposited $100, $1200 per year.
By the time your child is 25 you have saved $30.000 for him/her.

Another parent had a baby (baby #2) at the same time, but this parent said to himself - great! When my child will be older I will teach it about saving money, and it will decide if he/she wants to save for future or not.
So, when the child was 10 years old, the parent explained about saving money, and the child said yes.
And ever since the child put aside $100 a month, $1200 per year. By the time the child was 25, it saved $18.000. Allll-most, almost half as much less
as the child #1.

Another parent who also had a baby (baby #3) at the same day decided do nothing.

May I point out that no matter how the child#2 and the child#3 will try to catch up they will never be able to regain lost years savings.

It's like that with CI.

Fuzzy

 

[Liebling:-)))]

Thx Cloggy


A little example - suppose today your child (baby #1) was born. You wanted to secure its future, so you run to the bank and opened a saving account.
every month you deposited $100, $1200 per year.
By the time your child is 25 you have saved $30.000 for him/her.

Another parent had a baby (baby #2) at the same time, but this parent said to himself - great! When my child will be older I will teach it about saving money, and it will decide if he/she wants to save for future or not.
So, when the child was 10 years old, the parent explained about saving money, and the child said yes.
And ever since the child put aside $100 a month, $1200 per year. By the time the child was 25, it saved $18.000. Allll-most, almost half as much less
as the child #1.

Another parent who also had a baby (baby #3) at the same day decided do nothing.

May I point out that no matter how the child#2 and the child#3 will try to catch up they will never be able to regain lost years savings.

It's like that with CI.

Fuzzy

There´re no comparison between CI surgery and children upbringing.

What you are talking about is about postive discipline to expose the children into right path.

CI is a surgery is about improve the children´s hearing development, not positive discipline.

This is a huge difference.

For your information, I have seen a lot of children between 7 and 8 years got their first CI and have no problem to catch their "lost years" to hear as what you claimed... The children learn very quickly than adult, you know. No matter either Bank saving nor surgery but they can still alway learn... only if they really want .

 

[shel90]

Yeah, Shel, I hear ya but I would have thought by now that maybe somewhere along the way, at your work, maybe a student who has failed with the CI might have dropped ancedotal statements to give you an idea as to why.....

We have only gotten 2 students who went thru the surgery while attending our school but the rest already had the CIs when they got referred to our school. Besides I am just tooo busy with other stuff to really think about it. I have one student who benefits from it now. Like deafdyke said...HAs work for some and dont work for some so it looks like the same for CIs.

 

[shel90]

No, Liebling - they mean making hearing baby deaf (not with CI) by using knife to cut something out.

Suppose a deaf parent did that to make a hearing baby deaf, there will be uproar in the hearing community. Hearing parents is already doing the reverse (making their deaf baby 'hearing' by implanting CI), that is why there is uproar in the deaf community.

U got a good point there...:hmmm:

 

[shel90]

You are mistaken - they all benefit more or less. Even if the device, CI or HA, enables them to hear but a truck passing, whereas they couldn't hear that before, it IS a BENEFIT. If the device enables them to hear what they could never hear before, then it IS a gift.

The problem with many is that they think CI is supposed to 100% replace normal hearing. If it doesn't, then it "failed".

Many pple here also think all it takes to hear is to have surgery. Unfortunately it is not - implantation is just the beginning, the rest is HARD WORK at learning to hear and speak for many years.

Is it worth it? Absolutely!
By being able to hear, even just a little, you gain more independence. The same way you do when you have TTY and you don't have to beg anyone to make the call for you - you have a device to be more independent. Same with being able to hear - the better you hear, the more independent you are, the better you can help those who can't hear at all.

many also don't understand, or don't WANT TO understand, that whether you like it or not the earlier implantation = the better the benefits. period.
of course, without implanted child's and it's parents own hard work even early implantation may go to waste.




See here Shel, I have a big problem accepting such a statement:

from someone who doesn't know WHY the CI is not working:



because what if the opportunity to have huge benefits from CI WAS there, only the parents and the child neglected the work they were supposed to do.


I have no problem with you not being interested in why the CI doesn't work. Of course you don't have to know why if you are not interested. You have no obligation to know. but.......


But I have a big problem with you declaring CI "useless" WITHOUT you also knowing why it "failed".
(If it failed at all).

I understand that not everyone will benefit from CI the same way. I know some people will be able to hear better and some less.
But if you say to me "I see many children who do not benefit from CI, so what kind of gift it is" - well, to be able to say such a judgement, you need to back your statement up with facts WHY it didn't work..




I think you are assuming correctly. I think many of the children might have been implanted too late.
Also, regardless of an age, the amount of work that is needed with CI turned out to be too much to handle for many parents. I can understand that. It is a huge undertaking - to teach a CI child to hear.



The HUGE difference though - anyone - even CIborg or HoHorg can learn sign language at any time.
For a deaf to have BEST benefits from CI - TIME IS CRITICAL.



Fuzzy

A person calls the kid's name when standing behind them, the kid doesnt respond and that is done several times...

The fact is that I work with kids who do not benefit from their CIs and I am gonna state that fact here whether u like it or not. Maybe the parents dont want to share why the CIs didnt really work for them and it is their right to keep that to themselves.

I am profoundly deaf without CIs, I live independently and I am happy. I dont need CIs to make me happy.

 

[shel90]

Good post Fuzzy.
You are right. It is hard work, there's a huge benefit for the child, and as you said. Timing is critical.

By being able to hear, even just a little, you gain more independence.

I hear with my HAs

My brother doesnt use HAs and doesnt hear at all

We are both equally independent. No difference.

U want your child to hear.. I have no problem but u have to understand that there are people who are stone deaf without CIs who are leading independent lives. Deaf people have done it for centuries.

 

[Maria]

The decision is up to the parents. WHEN the choice has been made by the parents, the child will benefit when the operation is done as soon as possible. Before the age of 3-4 years. That age is still too young to ask the child.

Well, as for me - I don't agree with ya about the decision is up to the parents. It's about " acceptance ". It's a part of test for the parents when a " deaf " child is born or a few months old later when a child become deaf due to illness or whatever. It's the parents' responsiblity to LEARN sign language, not have a doctor to use a knife on a child and puttin' CI on child's head.
To me, I think it is horrifyin' to think of an image of cuttin' on a child's head with a knife WHILE this child don't know what's goin' on. Think it is fair for this child not to know about this without communicatin' or discussin' with this child FIRST ? It's NOT about a parent or parents. It's about child. Parents gave a " life " to this child and let the child have its own life by makin' it on her or his own. I don't believe that the parents SHOULD design child's life for the child, just because the parents GAVE a life to this child as a gift through love. Hearin' aids are more safer than CI, because it don't require a surgery or usin' a knife to cut the child's head. Take the child to the speech therapist and he/or she will teach this child to learn how to talk. What's wrong with that ? Why should parents EXPECT a " perfect " by havin' CI ?

And please do not assume that "we" do not love our child. That kind of ""slap in the face" is really inappropriate for a parents that heared that the child is deaf. Close to every parent of a deaf child is hearing, and it is NATURAL for parents to give their children hearing as well. Especially since the world around the family is hearing as well.

I don't think you get my point. Love means parents SHOULD accept the way the baby IS, no matter what. I've seen many hearin' parents are learnin' sign language when their child/or children are deaf. I believe that by bein' deaf is more feelings .. uh..like they would try to make friends with anyone without feelin' any difference because of its natural and that deaf child will not feel " different " from anyone. It could be anythin' but for CI children/babies ... they will feel different when they grow up because, they don't feel " natural " just like a " deaf " child would. Hearin' aids are a big difference than CI. I don't want to change my " deaf " child's feelings into somethin' that my natural feelings don't compatible with. View, insights and all that are important to have the same natural feelings.

Again, your suggestion of "waiting untill the child understands" is taking away opportunities. That's why implantation is best done as soon as possible. And that does not mean that the option to stop using CI is not there later. That is very well possible.

It won't take away opportunities. There's always a plenty of time. Always. Same goes with hearin' aids before a child could become a hard of hearin'. No difference. If, a deaf child happen want to take that hearin' aids off - no problem... easier for this child to do that, but with CI - it is not easy to take it whole off, because there's still another part that stays in the brain/head.

The "hugh risk..... causing death and illness" is one of those "fear-myths". Based on nothing.

You better research about that first before you say anythin' here, because you could make a mistake for sayin' that.


Waiting for the child to decide is a choice as well. Making the child grow up deaf.!!. And there's nothing wrong with that. As long as one realises that that is also a decision that is being made for the child.

Again, waiting for the child to decide is taking away opportunities to hear. Without the childs permission!!

I don't think if a deaf child will complaint about takin' away opportunities. I don't think so. If, a deaf child wants hearin' aids or CI, it's the parents' responsiblity to explain via show what the difference between hearin' aids and CI before a deaf child can decide to chose which one he/or she wants. It's also the parents' responsiblity to explain the risk about CI and surgery.

How come the hearin' parents want a " quick " by havin' CI on a deaf child instead of havin' hearin' aids and have a deaf child to visit a speech therapist to learn how to talk ? What's the rush about CI ? No patience ? Lookin' for an easy way out ? Hmmm..........