Declaration of Occupy Wall Street

[Steinhauer]

How do you feel about the Marine that served 2 terms in Iraq laying in a hospital on a respirator because police hit him in the head with a tear gas cansiter? He was standing quietly inside the barricade. When people tried to come to his assistance, another tear gas canister was fired into them. How do you feel about all of that?

Peaceful? According to the video I saw on the news, the protesters were very peaceful until they were assaulted.

Were they asked to leave?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/22/occupy-oakland-protesters-refuse-to-leave_n_1026563.html

BTW, I had dinner with my in-laws this evening. My grandmother in law is 87 years old, my grandfather in law is 92. I actually asked them if they remembered the protests at Kent and they both recalled it rather well, and in great detail.

It was a protest that got out of hand and wasn't even close to being what a "normal, rational, sane" person would consider to be "peaceful".

Now, my grandfather in law is a D-Day veteran as well as Korea. He is a retired Navy Officer and served more than two years in combat zones. Is his "opinion" of any greater value than your championed Iraqi veteran that refused to leave when asked?


http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO P1020.34G W CH 1-4.pdf

As a member of the armed forces, wouldn't this Iraqi soldier have been inclined to uphold the law?

 

[TXgolfer]

TXgolfer, you're pathetic. I'm going to use my ignore feature.

Sorry you feel that way. I am not sure why you would have a problem with them investigating.....The first report was rubber bullets.

 

[Cowpuppy]

as I said before.... the cold is around the corner.... just wait it out and they will mostly go home. Hence no need for police overreactions. sometimes you just have to let people have their say. and they go home.
my two cents is wall street types and banks have to much lobbying power in politics. deregulations led to housing fiasco. and other ripoff leeways such as credit card overpayments and bleeding people any which way.. bring on the winter. point has been made.

 

[Steinhauer]

It was just a "peaceful" gathering:

It's not known exactly what type of object struck Olsen or who might have thrown it, though Guy's group said it was lodged by officers. Several small skirmishes had broken out in the night with police clearing the area by firing tear gas and protesters throwing rocks and bottles at them.

Iraq war vet injured during Oakland protests - Yahoo! News


1) They were ordered to leave

2) They threw objects at law enforcement officers

I do not want these people even having jobs if they cannot respect the law and authority. They belong in jail.

Later Wednesday, Oakland officials allowed protesters back into the plaza where their 15-day-old encampment had been raided but said people would be prohibiting from spending the night. The campsite itself was fenced off so it could be cleaned and treated with chemicals.

About 1,000 people quickly filled the plaza for a general assembly where speakers criticized city officials but urged the crowd to remain peaceful. Despite the pleas for order, a small number of people pulled down a section of the fence and the enclosure started falling like dominoes as others jumped on the downed pieces.

 

[Steinhauer]

It wasn't too bright of them to refuse to follow police order, as evidenced by the casualties. :roll:

It also wasn't too bright for the US to be engaged in a war they did not attempt to win; they just wanted to repel the North Vietnamese/Vietcong. Add 58,220 U.S. service members killed, a draft that forced young men to go into combat, and you can figure the rest. A good reason for those young draft-aged men to protest? I think so. Anyhow, I am not going to debate that war. It was beaten to a pulp in the late 1960's and most of the 1970's.

I do notice an alarming trend on your part; that you feel LEO using deadly force is a good thing almost every time it happens. We will not agree on that.

Please save the veiled insults for other posters. Thanks.

Here is the difference we have. I do not think that it is wise to break the law. I believe LEO's have every right to use the appropriate force to uphold the law. Now, "approriate use of force" may be where we disagree.

I am not stupid by any means, and I do know that there are LEO's that use inappropriate force and abuse their role - but guess what? They broke the law, and the law applies to everybody .... even protesters who flagrantly think it is their right to violate the law and violate the peace and order that is established for everyone.

When there is a mob of protesters, the protesters adopt what is called a "mob mentality". That is why LEO's use riot gear - for their protection - not the mob's. Once the mob has been ordered to leave, the law abiders will leave - what is left, are the law breakers - and guess what? Police can use the appropriate force to evict them.

No veiled insult on my part.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_behavior

 

[Steinhauer]

Just to add what I stated above.

I have a profound respect for Law Enforcement Officers. They put themselves at risk every single day for very little pay. When it is a soldier that was injured because he was part of a mob that was asked to leave, and he refused, it makes headlines everywhere.

But what about the LEO's that were injured? Ever hear of them?

Some people may criticize the US LEO's for having guns, using brute force to uphold the law, etc. and will compare them to the UK:

26 London police officers injured in rioting - Yahoo! News

Saturday's protest was initially peaceful, but got ugly as between 300 and 500 people gathered around Tottenham's police station. Some protesters filled bottles with gasoline to throw at police lines, others confronted officers with makeshift weapons — including baseball bats and bars — and attempted to storm the station.

Now, of course, "tourist guide" bobbies would get injured in a situation like that. :roll:

In the U.S. the LEO's sue protesters that injure officers.

 

[Daredevel7]

All this talk makes me wonder...

What makes a protest "work"? Of the previous protests that actually caused a positive change, did the group obey the police orders? Did they arrive in the morning, hold up signs quietly until the time they had to leave for the day?

I don't know much about the history of protests (not talking about general movements, but EXACTLY what the protesting groups did), but I would think that if a protest group came to an area and was nice and peaceful and didn't bother anyone else, they wouldn't make much of an impact. If they do, please let me know which protests did that. So that I can educate myself on it.

If I were a top guy of a corp or the government or whoever they are protesting against, why would I care what they do, as long whatever they do don't affect me? I mean... a group of people in a grassy area near my property holding up signs everyday wouldn't bother me. I would just keep doing whatever I was doing. I'd just make fun of them (like how a certain poster does.) "omgwtfbbq, did you see what Flea Party did? Someone got caught peeing on a cop car. He didn't realize it because he was too drunk. lolzzzzz"

I would think there needs to be an "annoying" factor (something that actually AFFECTS others) to push people to make a change.

 

[Steinhauer]

The right to protest does not give the right to riot ..... period.

 

[Daredevel7]

The right to protest does not give the right to riot ..... period.

I agree, and I'm not saying that they should cause anything that could potentially harm others, but.... what DID they do back then? They did simply obeyed orders? They did just show up peacefully and left when asked?

That worked?

 

[jillio]

Here's the video: Occupy Oakland - Flashbangs USED on protesters OPD LIES - YouTube

Absolutely disturbing. The cops actually fired a flashbang into the small crowd that was gathering to help him. That was absolutely criminal behavior, and the officer(s) responsible for that should be debagded and prosecuted for assault. I don't care what he did. I don't care what happened before this. I don't care one fucking iota about anything other than this moment, where an already-wounded man is attacked by the police. What is shown on this video is completely unacceptable, cowardly, and criminal behavior by a United States law enforcement agency.

I'd like to see what Tex has to say about this war veteran protester being treated in such a respectful manner by the police.

Thanks for searching out the video. I find this incident very disturbing, which is why I brought up Kent State. Such an apt comparison.

 

[jillio]

I was 19, so I remember.

Yep, we're in the same age bracket!:P

 

[jillio]

They are still investigating the cause of the "wound" But, even Vets have to follow police orders. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.....

Oh, puhleeze. The man was standing silently with his hands in front of him. And then, after he was critically injured, the police attempted to prevent people from helping him.:roll:

 

[jillio]

I've seen tons of video of the incident. They were asked to leave twice and then warned. They had their chance to do as told. This doesn't happen when you obey the law

Oh,what about the right to peaceful assembly and protest?

 

[jillio]

Were they asked to leave?

Occupy Oakland Protesters Defy City Order To Leave

BTW, I had dinner with my in-laws this evening. My grandmother in law is 87 years old, my grandfather in law is 92. I actually asked them if they remembered the protests at Kent and they both recalled it rather well, and in great detail.

It was a protest that got out of hand and wasn't even close to being what a "normal, rational, sane" person would consider to be "peaceful".

Now, my grandfather in law is a D-Day veteran as well as Korea. He is a retired Navy Officer and served more than two years in combat zones. Is his "opinion" of any greater value than your championed Iraqi veteran that refused to leave when asked?


http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO P1020.34G W CH 1-4.pdf

As a member of the armed forces, wouldn't this Iraqi soldier have been inclined to uphold the law?

Were your in laws there? I was. There was nothing out of hand about it, and there was virtually no reason for the National Guard to be using live ammo to shoot into a group of students and professors.

So? My dad was a WWII vet and a Korean War vet. And he thought the Kent State shootings were abombinal, too. My husband was a Korean War Vet. He agreed that it is a huge black mark on America.I am close to huge numbers of VietNam War Vets, most of them family members. Your bringing up your family has virtually nothing to do with the fact that innocent people lost their lives and many more were seriously injured in an unjustified shooting spree by the National Guard. Nor does it have anything to do with the fact that this Marine served two tours in Iraq defending your rights only to be critically wounded by the police force that is sworn to protect and serve. And for what? Exercising his rights.
That vet fought for his right, and our right to protest. I guess you can't see past your own bigotry to see that.

 

[jillio]

It was just a "peaceful" gathering:




Iraq war vet injured during Oakland protests - Yahoo! News


1) They were ordered to leave

2) They threw objects at law enforcement officers

I do not want these people even having jobs if they cannot respect the law and authority. They belong in jail.

You are even more pathetic than TxGolfer.

Do you even understand the nature of the injuries this guy received?
How many of the officers were injured by people throwing objects at them? What, one had to have their uniform cleaned because they got hit with a banana?

Whether you want these people there or not isn't even a part of the issue. They have the right to protest. It is nothing but hypocritical of you to demand your right to walk around packing heat but deny the rest of America's citizens their right to peaceful assembly and protest. This attitude of fear of a group of peaceful protesters is exactly why people like you shouldn't be carrying guns. Your fear is disproportional to any real threat.

 

[TWA]

Just to add what I stated above.

I have a profound respect for Law Enforcement Officers. They put themselves at risk every single day for very little pay. When it is a soldier that was injured because he was part of a mob that was asked to leave, and he refused, it makes headlines everywhere.

But what about the LEO's that were injured? Ever hear of them?

Some people may criticize the US LEO's for having guns, using brute force to uphold the law, etc. and will compare them to the UK:

26 London police officers injured in rioting - Yahoo! News



Now, of course, "tourist guide" bobbies would get injured in a situation like that. :roll:

In the U.S. the LEO's sue protesters that injure officers.

You know, I'd like to address the bold, since this line of reasoning is brought up often for why cops should be placed on some pedestal and get away with heinous acts. First of all, LEO is not even in the top ten most dangerous professions in the United States. You want to know some jobs that are more dangerous?

Roofing
Truck driving
fishing
garbage collecting

This list is compiled by the US Dept. of Labor. You won't see any sort of LEO on it. Fact is, the riskiest part of being a cop is eating too much donuts and having a heart attack. Furthermore, when you sign up for the job, you do it with the understanding that there are certain risks involved. A commercial fisherman signs up under the same pretense, but he isn't glorified and revered in society because his job is inherently dangerous, which he already knows. Why should police officers be treated any differently?

I think we should start glorifying truck drivers for delivering us our boxes and boxes of frozen fish sticks, which are caught by fisherman who should be glorified the most because their job is the most dangerous in America. And when you go outside to throw away the packaging and half-eaten fish sticks, please salute your garbage collector. He is a hero too!

 

[Steinhauer]

You are even more pathetic than TxGolfer.

Do you even understand the nature of the injuries this guy received?
How many of the officers were injured by people throwing objects at them? What, one had to have their uniform cleaned because they got hit with a banana?

Whether you want these people there or not isn't even a part of the issue. They have the right to protest. It is nothing but hypocritical of you to demand your right to walk around packing heat but deny the rest of America's citizens their right to peaceful assembly and protest. This attitude of fear of a group of peaceful protesters is exactly why people like you shouldn't be carrying guns. Your fear is disproportional to any real threat.

You and your definition of "peaceful" are pathetic. Throwing a public temper tantrum then attacking police is NOT peaceful.

Don't want to get shot at? Don't attack police officers ... it really is that simple. You are worse than Zsa Zsa

And if it means anything or not - Yes, they are from Ohio too. You were probably one of the protesters, and considering what you think is peaceful, I would have to say I completely agree with my grandparents - they are sane.

 

[TXgolfer]

Oh,what about the right to peaceful assembly and protest?

You still have to obey the police. That is the law. One can always go to court if they feel their rights are violated. Pretty simple really.

As for peaceful, the protesters were throwing rocks,bottles filled with paint and fireworks. They are also investigating whether they threw bottles filled with urine and feces as well.

 

[jillio]

You and your definition of "peaceful" are pathetic. Throwing a public temper tantrum then attacking police is NOT peaceful.

Don't want to get shot at? Don't attack police officers ... it really is that simple. You are worse than Zsa Zsa

Don't want to get shot at? Don't try to exercise your rights to protest. But, since you don't appear to have any convictions regarding social justice, I doubt seriously that you would ever engage in a protest of any kind, unless it is to rant and rave safely behind your computer screen about 2nd Amendment rights. Consequently, you are more likely to be shot by another rabid gun owner than a cop.

 

[jillio]

You still have to obey the police. That is the law. One can always go to court if they feel their rights are violated. Pretty simple really.

As for peaceful, the protesters were throwing rocks,bottles filled with paint and fireworks. They are also investigating whether they threw bottles filled with urine and feces as well.

Investigating, investigating, investigating. Translated as: trying to find some kind of strawman that will detract from the guilt of the officers.