Debunking Conspiracy Theories

[Cloggy]

I got an e-mail back and he said it would have not mattered if the towers had a core or no core. He said that the planes flew at top speed on full tanks and crashed into the towers and then it became way too hot...

The temperatures due to jetfuel are too hot to melt steel. Research showed that steel would have lost maximum 50% strength, which is not enough to make it fail.

then the towers dropped with the pancake effect after being very hot for so long. The towers at the top alone weighs like 100 - 200 tons and that is enough if dropped onto a building will crush the building right down to its roots.

A pancake effect would have the main core still standing. Also, a pancake effect would make the towers collapse far slower than it did. (Hence the two figures I posted ) and with the side of the building damaged, why would it not topple!..

Even with a core, all it had to do was burn really very hot then snap and the buildings just crash hurling straight down and people died that day. The core burning so hot acts like a scissor and you cut the wire, what happens ? the wire below you drops to the table right ?

A wire is in tesion, so cutting it would accelerate it to the bottom. A core holding a building is in compression and will not do as your friend described. Apart from that, the core would not be hot. Steel transfers heat very easily, removing heat away from the source. Themperatures would not reach melting temperatures and steel does not snap. Heat will reduce it's strength, it will not make it snap..

then you release the another wire in your hand and it goes just about straight to the center. That is what happened that day.

So, have your friend read this and tell me what he thinks of it.

If he is the expert his initials indicate, he would know (or can easily find out) the maximum burning temperature of jetfuel, the melting temperature of steel, and reduction of strength due to heating of steel.

I am surprised that he compares the core of a skyscraper to a string in tension. That is completely wrong.

 

[Heath]

Hi Cloggy, His unit left for Iraq. He was stationed in Germany. I have not heard back from him for 2 days now. As soon as he is able to, he will send me an e-mail, but I told him to always answer his family's e-mail first.

 

[Cloggy]

Hi Cloggy, His unit left for Iraq. He was stationed in Germany. I have not heard back from him for 2 days now. As soon as he is able to, he will send me an e-mail, but I told him to always answer his family's e-mail first.

Sure, I understand that..
Tell him to stay clear of tall highrise buildings.....

 

[Cloggy]

 

[Cloggy]

Conspiracy Theory is easily connected with idiots having nothing else to do than critisize the government...
BUt here's som food for thought..

 

[rockdrummer]

posted in other thread.

 

[Cloggy]

Have you ever seen this view?

 

[Cloggy]

How the video could have looked

 

[Cloggy]

Pancaking..... 4-story building compared to TWC

How would a 100+ story building look like.....

And when pancaking, how does this piece end up as it does....

 

[Cloggy]

Debunking Debunkers...

For those having read the Popular Mechanics article.... Grassroots InfoMedia debunks that story..

Grassroots InfoMedia debunks Popular Mechanic's experts, and their false 9/11 claims, with evidence. If you read these pages, and follow the links, you will begin to wonder, and you will probably never stop.
The non-bold text is from Popular Mechanics, the bold text is from Grassroots InfoMedia, with our refutes, rebuttals, and links of proof below the paragraphs written by PM. These pages do not cover all the errors and false claims of Popular Mechanics, more pages will come. Isn't it amazing that one guy can defeat a panel of 300 so called researchers and experts?

It's worth to read it. Instead of just statements of PM, without backing it up with pictures or video, this person is giving lot's of info, video's, pictures and other experts.

 

[Heath]

Hi Cloggy, I still have not heard back yet and I am still checking to see if my friend sent e-mail. I am sure he is pretty busy in Iraq. He is probably in high demand due to his m.o.s. I think he defuses IED's and places explosives on bridges to cut off enemy access and makes sure explosives are placed around the base in preparation for night time attacks to fend off waves of enemy combatants, and goes into explosive homemade factories to take the suicide bomb vests and the suicide belts away from the enemy and arrest the terrorists, things like that. I told him to try and stay off the rooftops because alots of gun battles do take place on rooftops as well as in the buildings and stay away from pockets of spots where snipers can shoot and do all he can to stay alive. His m.o.s. means he is in combat alots and I really hope he makes it out alive in one year.

 

[Cloggy]

Hi Cloggy, I still have not heard back yet and I am still checking to see if my friend sent e-mail. I am sure he is pretty busy in Iraq. He is probably in high demand due to his m.o.s. I think he defuses IED's and places explosives on bridges to cut off enemy access and makes sure explosives are placed around the base in preparation for night time attacks to fend off waves of enemy combatants, and goes into explosive homemade factories to take the suicide bomb vests and the suicide belts away from the enemy and arrest the terrorists, things like that. I told him to try and stay off the rooftops because alots of gun battles do take place on rooftops as well as in the buildings and stay away from pockets of spots where snipers can shoot and do all he can to stay alive. His m.o.s. means he is in combat alots and I really hope he makes it out alive in one year.

Well, I'm looking forward to hear from him. He should know demolition and therefore should appreciate the way WTC-1, 2 and especially 7 came down...

 

[Cloggy]

Quote

"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Herman Goering, Neurenberg, 18th April, 1946.

 

[Cloggy]

Remember the plane that hit the Pentagon. Flight 77...

Nothing could be found. No chairs, No luggage, no wings, no tail, engine missing etc. Everything burned due to the huge fire....
(They did manage to identify allmost all passengers.....)

And I just found out..... They found a "Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Student Identity Card" of one of the hijackers....!!!!
AMAZING!!!!
(911 commision info) Page 44, in the pdf-file, 39 of 39

​

 

[Dennis S.]

Remember the plane that hit the Pentagon. Flight 77...

Nothing could be found. No chairs, No luggage, no wings, no tail, engine missing etc. Everything burned due to the huge fire....
(They did manage to identify allmost all passengers.....)

How the hell do you identify passengers when the chairs they were sitting in couldn't be found "due to the huge fire?"

You're still not getting your facts straight.

 

[Cloggy]

How the hell do you identify passengers when the chairs they were sitting in couldn't be found "due to the huge fire?"

You're still not getting your facts straight.

Heh, That's the official version, not mine....
Official version: Hughe fire. Everything burned and desintegrated. Almost all passengers were identified.
However: No pictures anywhere of bodies, chairs, luggage, wings, tail.

But they did find: The identitycard of the hijacker!!!

 

[Reba]

Remember the plane that hit the Pentagon. Flight 77...

Nothing could be found. No chairs, No luggage, no wings, no tail, engine missing etc. Everything burned due to the huge fire....
(They did manage to identify allmost all passengers.....)

"Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. 'It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why,' says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. 'I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.' Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: 'I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?'"
Debunking The 9/11 Myths - Mar. 2005 Cover Story - Popular Mechanics

 

[Cloggy]

A picture of a turbine, a fuselage, a landing gear does NOT make a Boeing. It indicates a flying object that has landing capabilities.
No luggage? No seats? Where are they?? Burned?? But the identity card of the hijacker in the cockpit is found intact!! Even though there is no autopsy-report of any of the hijackers.... How come???

Eyewitnesses.... We could go back and forth with these....

From this site:

Popular Mechanics: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

Response: The Pentagon is interesting, the damage done is not consistent with what caused it, you can see the initial damage here, Watch there is also a photograph taken almost immediately after something hit the Pentagon, a U.S. Marine Corps photo by Cpl. Jason Ingersoll that shows the very small hole See the photo. The government could just show us the plane, and that would settle this once and for all, but so far I have seen no plane, no wreckage of a 757, no autopsy reports that seem credible, all I see is evidence that seems odd, and inconsistent with the official story. Here is an example, Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 By Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D, based on FOIA documents obtained by Dr. Olmstead Read More. There are more odd things pointed out here, as well as links to other sites that shed doubt on the Pentagon situation. See More If you search you will find lots of strange unexplained phenomenon surrounding the Pentagon attack, to describe all of the strange occurrences would take many words to describe, so I will leave it up to you to investigate, you have the information super highway at your finger tips.

OK witnesses:
Sam Danner
Article regarding eyewitnesses
More questions

Forget the eyewitnesses for now...The government can show them, the people that want to really investigat the 911 day can show them...

Let's have a picture or video of the Boeing. There were 2 video's confiscated that had a good view. One on a Hotel, and one from a gas station. Then there are the 2 camera's looking at the highway... and then there are 60+ camera's looking 24/7 at the Pentagon. Your nearest Wallmart has camera's looking at everything... don't you think an organistation like the Pentagon would????

Why can they not show us a video of a Boeing?? That isn't hard to do if one crashed into it!!

 

[Cloggy]

The reason why I said "Eyewitnesses.... We could go back and forth with these...." is because you will find them, and I will find them....

But then again, I would like to show these:
From this website:

• 9/11 - Witnesses at the Pentagon report that the aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon sounded and/or behaved like a missile.

► Richard Benedetto, USA TODAY reporter
"...saw the plane slam into the Pentagon. "It sounded like an artillery shell. It hit on the west side of the building, near the helipad." - USA Today, 'I fear for my daughter' (09/11/01)

► Michael DiPaula, 41, project coordinator Pentagon Renovation Team
"Suddenly, an airplane roared into view, nearly shearing the roof off the trailer before slamming into the E ring. 'It sounded like a missile,' DiPaula recalls." - Baltimore Sun

► Lon Rains, Editor at Space News
"With the Pentagon to the left of my van at about 10 o’clock on the dial of a clock, I glanced at my watch to see if I was going to be late for my appointment.
At that moment I heard a very loud, quick whooshing sound that began behind me and stopped suddenly in front of me and to my left. In fractions of a second I heard the impact and an explosion. The next thing I saw was the fireball.
I was convinced it was a missile. It came in so fast it sounded nothing like an airplane. Friends and colleagues have asked me if I felt a shock wave and I honestly do not know." - Space News, Eyewitness: The Pentagon (06/30/05)

► Tom Seibert, 33, Pentagon network engineer
""We heard what sounded like a missile, then we heard a loud boom," said Tom Seibert, 33, a network engineer at the Pentagon. "We were sitting there and watching this thing from New York, and I said, you know, the next best target would be us. And five minutes later, boom."" - Guardian, 'Everyone was screaming, crying, running. It's like a war zone' (09/12/01)



• 9/11 - Witnesses of the Pentagon crash describe seeing an aircraft very different from a Boeing 757.

► D. S. Khavkin
"...my husband and I heard an aircraft directly overhead. At first, we thought it was the jets that sometimes fly overhead. However, it appeared to be a small commercial aircraft." - BBC, More eyewitness accounts of the attack on the US (09/13/01)

► Steve Patterson, 43, graphics artist
"He said the plane, which sounded like the high-pitched squeal of a fighter jet, flew over Arlington cemetary so low that he thought it was going to land on I-395. He said it was flying so fast that he couldn't read any writing on the side.
The plane, which appeared to hold about eight to 12 people, headed straight for the Pentagon.
Then, he said, he saw the Pentagon "envelope" the plane and bright orange flames shoot out the back of the building." - Washington Post, 'Extensive Casualties' in Wake of Pentagon Attack (09/11/01)

► Joel Sucherman, USA Today Editor
"I did not see the engines, I saw the body and the tail; and it was a silver jet with the markings along the windows that spoke to me as an American Airlines jet, this was not a commercial, excuse me, a business jet, it was not a lear jet, it was a bigger plane than that." - CNN video



• 9/11 - CNN correspondent Jamie McIntyre reporting live from the Pentagon says that there's no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the building.

Later, when he sees the video without any plane on it, he says that "Obviously a plane hits the Pentagon"

► Jamie Mcintryre, CNN correspondent
"From my close-up inspection, there's no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.
The only site, is the actual side of the building that's crashed in. And as I said, the only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage, nothing like that anywhere around which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon and then caused the side to collapse.
Even though if you look at the pictures of the Pentagon you see that the floors have all collapsed, that didn't happen immediately. It wasn't until almost about 45 minutes later that the structure was weakened enough that all of the floors collapsed." - CNN (09/11/01) [Video archived at: Prison Planet; The Web Fairy]

(See also: 9/11 - Witness at Flight 93 crash scene says there was nothing that could 'distinguish that a plane had crashed there'; Killtown's: Did Flight 77 really crash into the Pentagon?)



• 9/11 - Witnesses at the Pentagon report no plane at the crash site.

► Steve DeChiaro, engineer
"Instead of following the streams of people away from the Pentagon, Steve DeChiaro ran toward the smoke. As he reached the west side of the building he saw a light post bent in half. "But when I looked at the site, my brain could not resolve the fact that it was a plane because it only seemed like a small hole in the building," he said. "No tail. No wings. No nothing." He followed the emergency crews that had just arrived. He saw people hanging out of windows and others crawling from the demolished area. "These people were covered in what I thought was powder - I don't know anything about medicine or first aid, I'm an engineer - but it looked like powder," DeChiaro said." - Commercial Appeal/Memphis Online

► Lincoln Liebner, Army Captain
"I got to the building. Remarkably, there was no debris from the airplane." - Soldiers to the Rescue/Responding in the Pentagon

► Allan Lindsley, Army Captain, Physicians Assistant for Emergency Medical Services at Dewitt Army Community Hospital, Ft. Belvoir, VA.
"At the time we could walk right up to the building. I walked right down, I was within 100 meters of the building, right in front of the crash site.
I didn’t see any of the plane. By then, the floors had collapsed." - Soldiers to the Rescue/Responding in the Pentagon

► Eileen Murphy, Head Nurse of the Minor Surgery Clinic at the DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic
"I knew it was a crash site before we got there, and I didn’t know what it was going to look like. I couldn’t imagine because the building is like rock solid. I expected to see the airplane, so I guess my initial impression was, “Where’s the plane? How come there’s not a plane?” I would have thought the building would have stopped it and somehow we would have seen something like part of, or half of the plane, or the lower part, or the back of the plane. So it was just a real surprise that the plane wasn’t there." - Soldiers to the Rescue/Responding in the Pentagon

► Maybon Pollock, Sergeant First Class, NCOIC Logistics in the DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic
I was more impressed, I was truly impressed, with how the building stood up, after they told me the size of the plane. And then I was in awe that I saw no plane, nothing left from the plane. It was like it disintegrated as it went into the building." - Soldiers to the Rescue/Responding in the Pentagon

► Will Jarvis, operations research analyst, Office of Secretary of Defense
"That smell was his only clue that a plane had crashed into the Pentagon, where he works as an operations research analyst for the Office of the Secretary of Defense. Jarvis, who was around the corner from the disaster, tried but failed to see the plane when he left the building. “There was just nothing left. It was incinerated. We couldn’t see a tail or a wing or anything,” he says. “Just a big black hole in the building with smoke pouring out of it.” - Univ of Toronto Magazine, Testimony to Tragedy (Winter 2002) [Wayback Machine]

I would rather focuse on "Why don't they show footage of a Boeing 757 hitting the Pentagon.... At least 60 camera's were pointed there....

 

[Boult]

Cloggy, I just came across this entry on this blog I visit;
Blog For Arizona: 9/11 Truth: Loose Change vs. Popular Mechanics Debate