Deaf with cochlear implants....

^Angel^ said:
It funni how YOU used to tell others to back off or quit the bickering, yet take a very good look at your own post, two wrongs don't make it right....
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Don't worry I've learned my lesson and will keep ANY positive type post about CI's off the forum. I apologize for my audacity of thinking that people could handle it.
 
Cloggy said:
And computers would be the end for the book-industry.....
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and yet the books industry is still around. event though there are electronic magazine and books. even audio books or book on tapes. book industry didn't die

what's more book industry is part of our culture, I mean the human one.
 
Oh dear, I can see this thread getting a bit heaten up, so I think I'll take a break for awhile.... :scatter:
 
Eyeth said:
:gpost: Who would've thunk 'Moore's Law' would also hold true for the CI technology? :) I'd just wish the same rationale holds 'parallel' for ASL. As it stands, the more CI recipients are successful, and at more earlier ages, the less they are apt to pick up on ASL. In fact, thanks to a vast majority of professionals working with CI deaf children, ASL is discouraged.
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so, the growth of text messaging, IM and tty on computer instead of old device and improvement in technology that aids deaf can lessen the usage of ASL. (except for videophone)

I once told a lady from DN to quit bashing us and if she wants to preserve Deaf Culture, then I suggest that she gives up all those technology and meet in person for person to person chat. :dunno:
 
rockdrummer said:
:topic::topic:

I am thinking this is off topic. TrippLA, please start a thread because I would be very interested in more than the one-liner you posted here. Please to explain how the CI hurts the deaf culture? I am a hearing individual and I would like to understand this further. I am an open minded person and am interested in all sides of the issue. Can you start a thread and elaborate a bit on your comment. Maybe a good name for the thread is "Why CI's hurt the deaf culture" Just a suggestion.

Thank you
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o_O

It's not off-topic and it's not ur thread.

Cheri, thanks so much and that's my opinion. :)
 
TrippLA said:
Cheri, thanks so much and that's my opinion. :)
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I was hoping you could explain your reason for feeling that CI will hurt their deaf culture...
 
^Angel^ said:
I was hoping you could explain your reason for feeling that CI will hurt their deaf culture...
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I did that. Read other thread. :)
 
I just surprised by some of the comments that were posted earlier.

What is wrong with posting a positive CI experience on a CI board? Isn't talking about CI experiences what a CI board is for? As someone who is waiting for a CI I found Neecy's posts encouraging and useful. I would understand the reaction had Neecy gone over to the ASL board or some other board where there are few CI users - yes that would be rubbing it in their faces but in a CI board she should be free to post what she likes about her experiences. :dunno:

That's why we have different forums. I'd never dream of going to the ASL forum and telling a deaf person who had struggled under oralism and then had found ASL and wrote positive posts about it that it was bragging or offensive to oralists. I'd be happy for her!

I think we have to remember that we are different people with different experiences and that in different boards those different experiences are going to come out.

Respect is a two way street.
 
I hear you, it's just that positive posts are attacked so much that I wanted to react.
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Can and do undy that..... but please don't use me as a target . I'm very much a moderate on the subject of implants. Have to realize that while opposition to CIs has gone down, people aren't all gung ho about them. I also think it's a backlash b/c there seem to be a ton of evalingal types who talk, talk talk about the CI like it's some great holy sacred artifact.
 
deafdyke said:
Can and do undy that..... but please don't use me as a target . I'm very much a moderate on the subject of implants. Have to realize that while opposition to CIs has gone down, people aren't all gung ho about them. I also think it's a backlash b/c there seem to be a ton of evalingal types who talk, talk talk about the CI like it's some great holy sacred artifact.
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Pardon me? What do you mean by " who talk talk talk about CI like it's some great holy sacred artifact " ?... :ugh:
 
deafdyke said:
First of all, Eyeth, GOOD POINT!!!!!!! Second of all, neecy that's YOUR experiance. Not everyone will hear as well with a CI as you do. Many people who have really good one on one comprehension with the CI, (or hearing aids) don't do as well in crowds

Can she hear without lipreading? I only have a moderately severe loss, and I really can't hear without lipreading. I doubt she is completly auditory-verbal....auditory-oral yes......auditory-verbal NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey, even most hearing people read lips!
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:gpost: It's an exact what a lot of CI users said the same!

It's same with hard of hearing who can't hear the crowd but can hear a person's voice only instead of crowd... which different as hearing person who can hear crowd's voice...
 
CutePommie said:
I want to say thank you to Cheri,

I have a deaf son who is 13 years old now , when he was 13 months old the ENT specialists said that my son are on the borderline to have the C.I . and I said to the ENT specialists No thanks because I want my son to make his own decision when he get older. So he can hear good with hearing aids, and recently I talked to my deaf son about this ENT that said he is on the borderline for get the C.I . Know what his response to me ... * THANKS GOD that you didn't get me this C.I*. And said this hearing aids is good enough for him to use and can hear but not clearly . but does can hear when his name being calling by me or families even friends too ... etc..... so on ..... :scatter:

One of my decesed service user at work . he had the C.I user for 20 years . I asked him can he hear clearly with this C.I he said no just make funny background noises he can't not to catch it and said too many noises he can not to make it out what it is and he said it all waste of time, so he sometime had to used it for reason when he is alone at home so he said can sometime to picked up any noises....

So Cloggy please try to accept it what your daughter have .. it is nothing to be shame of. I always say that I am DEAF when people try talk to me like in the food stores . E.G:- when I was just check or look at the foods from the shelves .. then it turned around realised that the person been tried talk to me ... and I told this person sorry I am Deaf . then this person said Oh I am sorry .. then I used lipreading to this person Can I help ? , this person started talked slowly asked me how much is this please because I had left my reading glasses at home. then I check and used my finger to writing the amount of this item. and this person thank me very much for it .... I just felt so proud what I did ... that showing the hearing world that the Deaf People can do it of any help .. yet knowing some hearing people often walk away after I said that I am Deaf. I just went 'huh' oh well .. ( sniff my armpits or check see I have got 2 heads on my shoulders LOL )

But it would be the different story if any person who were born hearing then became deaf in earlier or later life , when they get the C.I they will know what it like to be hearing ... because they can to remember what the noises or music like ... that fine and but for me no thanks as I was born deaf SO BE IT!

That is all i could say ... :)
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:gpost: *nodding agreement*

I have a lot of deaf children who have deaf parents are really glad that they didn't implant them with CI yet until they feel ready... Some of them feel ready and want to have CI and happy to receive their parent's support. Its about respect...

But you should try to understand Cloggy as hearing person and didn't know what deaf culture is. He began to learn about deaf culture since he has a deaf daughter.
 
R2D2 said:
I just surprised by some of the comments that were posted earlier.

What is wrong with posting a positive CI experience on a CI board? Isn't talking about CI experiences what a CI board is for? As someone who is waiting for a CI I found Neecy's posts encouraging and useful. I would understand the reaction had Neecy gone over to the ASL board or some other board where there are few CI users - yes that would be rubbing it in their faces but in a CI board she should be free to post what she likes about her experiences. :dunno:
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Neecy label people as anti-activists who disagree to implant babies/toddlers with CI. It's unacceptance. She started to upset Cheri here that's how it upsets people here as well which not right. Neecy should show her respect us when we have different opinion than her. Logically she was hearing for 9 years which total different as us. We tried to explain her about pros and cons over CI but she choose to ignore it and make positive all the time. It shows that she think we are wrong...

Yes I :applause: Neecy for her willing to learn anything to hear with CI and show her positive over CI but she should remember that everyone are different. We didn't say anything against when anyone talk positive about CI but some of CI users don't like when they see the negative threads and against former CI users. Why can't they accept former CI users out of their experiences but rubbed our face and then correct us...?

See the example of Neecy's many posts...

http://www.alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=500787&postcount=12

http://www.alldeaf.com/showpost.php?p=501055&postcount=21

http://www.alldeaf.com/showthread.php?t=26859

That's why we have different forums. I'd never dream of going to the ASL forum and telling a deaf person who had struggled under oralism and then had found ASL and wrote positive posts about it that it was bragging or offensive to oralists. I'd be happy for her!
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We should accept each other what we are... I see nothing wrong if we agree to disagree each other. Its about open mind and respect.

I think we have to remember that we are different people with different experiences and that in different boards those different experiences are going to come out.

Respect is a two way street.
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Exactly!!! but Neecy refused to see it.
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I can see where you are coming from, but whenever I make legitimate points against CI's and see responses that are NOT backed up with sound reasoning I will comment on it.

Now with regards to the posts you singled out - the first one was in response to comments said that Cloggy was a bad parent for having his daughter implanted, how she couldn't possibly be happy, couldn't succeed in the hearing world because she had a CI, and how his implanting her is "bullshit". That's hardly being intolerant - those who made the accusations don't know Cloggy OR his daughter, and were totally ignoring his points on how well she has been doing, what she can do, and that she enjoys her CI in favor of repeatedly calling him a bad parent.

The second one - Lilly's Dad was supporting Cloggy as well, saying that with a CI, his daughter will have an easier time communicating with hearing people. LisaMarie asked why he thinks a CI will facilitate easier communication, and I did state that was an asinine question. It came across as if she was saying "how can being able to hear help you communicate better? Why not just stay deaf and use sign language?"

The answer is obvious - if you can HEAR what somebody is saying, communication comes fluently - it looked like she was trying to be contrite. Even ismi said it appeared "contrite or incredibly dense" to say such a thing and pointed out that "Is sign language a rich language that is easily accessible to the deaf? Yes. Is it spoken by the majority of the American population? No. Communication isn't just about what you can produce and receive - it's about who you can connect with."

I agree with what ismi said, and considering the majority of the human population can HEAR, being able to hear them WILL make communication easier.

Lastly, the final thread you pointed out simply shows the "thread" that my two earlier comments were in- and I stand by them. Yes RESPECT is a two-way street, but I won't stand by when I see ignorance. When I see people throwing around "CI's will ruin deaf culture" or "CI's are genocide" or that people are bad parents for implanting their children, even when its been pointed out (as Cloggy did repeatedly) that he IS teaching his daughter sign language in addition to her implant. I get the impression (repeatedly even!) that despite all proof showing that young children implanted earlier are thriving, and total communication for them is easier than those who aren't implanted, despite first-hand inisght on how implanted children can (and are) happy, so many just want to fall back on the "but they drill a hole in your head, so it can't be good!" arguement. Or they want parents to wait until a child can make an educated decision as to whether they want a CI (which would probably not be until they were what... 11 or 12?) and miss the window of opportunity before communication comprehension is established, making it all that much harder for the child in the long run.

I also get the impression, that the deaf community sees it their job to decide for parents what's best for deaf children, instead of the parent making the decisions themselves (as is their legal right.) They're mocked and rediculed for wanting to provide their children with the the best possible tools to ensure that they can succeed with minimal confusion, frustration, and discrimination in today's society.

Yes there are many successful deaf individuals, but the world is compromised by mostly hearing people. You can't avoid interacting with the hearing world, and I challenge any single person who is deaf who says that they never have a problem communicating or understanding hearing people. I was deaf for 24 years - I know the challenges that are out there too.

One final point - most deaf children are born into hearing families. Its *NATURAL* for parents to want their children to be able to communicate with them, and with their hearing friends, family, schoolmates etc. Not everyone has access to Deaf culture, and even if they do, not everyone feels comfortable in it. I think its time to let parents be parents, and let them make the best educated decisions they can for their own children, and if others don't like CI's, well, nobody is forcing them to have their own child implanted. Its said that respect is a two way street - why is it so many people can't respect the concept that a parent is doing what they believe to be the best for their child? You don't see hearing parents saying that deaf CODA's should get a CI.

I hope this clears up everything - I haven't refused to see anything - I see what's been said and I've commented on it.
 
neecy,

First of all, Nobody had stated that Cloggy was a bad parent for implanting her daughter, Don't put words in member's mouth unless it was in their own words. For a long time, I've seen deaf community doesn't agree with implanting CI on children, WITHOUT their permission, is different between telling someone that they're a bad parents vs standing up for children rights for their voice to be heard. Nothing wrong with some of our opinions. I know for matter of fact, No matter how we feel wouldn't effect the parent's decision based on what's best for their OWN child. This is a message board, Don't forget that, You gotta have members who opposed CI implants on children, You gotta have people who agree it's parents responsibility to make decisions on their minor children's behalf. Nobody is wrong here. If you were offended it is because you choose to take offense.

From my point of view, Not all parents make the best choice, appropriate decisions what they think is best for their children, I've always believe a child's voice is worth to be heard, because one, it's the child's life, not the parents, Cochlear implant surgery is not a life saving procedure, and Deafness is not a life threatening condition. This is how I feel! Does it make me wrong to feel this way? Of course not. Each of us are not going to agree on one way. That's why it is so interesting to have different opinions when it comes to implanting CI on children. Does that make me an Anti-CI, No it doesn't! Why? Because not once I've had a problem Implanting late-deafened adults, because it was their decision. ;)

Bottom line is that I've seen some implanting children and late-deafended adults stopped using ASL nor will not learn ASL well. <<That is a slap in the face to the deaf community. I don't want those implaninting children to not learn about Deaf culture, because they're still deaf without CI, CI is ONLY a device to help them hear. If parents are gotta just want their implanting children be involved ONLY in the hearing world instead of both world, that's not accepting the fact that the child is part of the Deaf culture too.
 
also get the impression, that the deaf community sees it their job to decide for parents what's best for deaf children, instead of the parent making the decisions themselves (as is their legal right.) They're mocked and rediculed for wanting to provide their children with the the best possible tools to ensure that they can succeed with minimal confusion, frustration, and discrimination in today's society.

You can't avoid interacting with the hearing world, and I challenge any single person who is deaf who says that they never have a problem communicating or understanding hearing people. I was deaf for 24 years - I know the challenges that are out there too.

One final point - most deaf children are born into hearing families. Its *NATURAL* for parents to want their children to be able to communicate with them, and with their hearing friends, family, schoolmates etc. Not everyone has access to Deaf culture, and even if they do, not everyone feels comfortable in it. I think its time to let parents be parents, and let them make the best educated decisions they can for their own children, and if others don't like CI's, well, nobody is forcing them to have their own child implanted. Its said that respect is a two way street - why is it so many people can't respect the concept that a parent is doing what they believe to be the best for their child?
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On the other hand neecy, try reading some of the stuff out there by pro-oral-only folks, or parents who have not totally come to terms with their kids' hearing losses. I believe in informed choice, BUT some of the parents out there are REALLY in denial, and are really going to do some serious emoitional damage to their kids. I applaud the hearing parents out there who are OK with Sign....I applaud the folks who want their kids to have a full communication toolbox or a choice as to communication tools.
Oh, and neecy, I agree with Cheri.......the debate on CI has gotten a lot more moderate in the past few years!
 
Cheri said:
neecy,

First of all, Nobody had stated that Cloggy was a bad parent for implanting her daughter, Don't put words in member's mouth unless it was in their own words. For a long time, I've seen deaf community doesn't agree with implanting CI on children, WITHOUT their permission, is different between telling someone that they're a bad parents vs standing up for children rights for their voice to be heard. Nothing wrong with some of our opinions. I know for matter of fact, No matter how we feel wouldn't effect the parent's decision based on what's best for their OWN child. This is a message board, Don't forget that, You gotta have members who opposed CI implants on children, You gotta have people who agree it's parents responsibility to make decisions on their minor children's behalf. Nobody is wrong here. If you were offended it is because you choose to take offense.

From my point of view, Not all parents make the best choice, appropriate decisions what they think is best for their children, I've always believe a child's voice is worth to be heard, because one, it's the child's life, not the parents, Cochlear implant surgery is not a life saving procedure, and Deafness is not a life threatening condition. This is how I feel! Does it make me wrong to feel this way? Of course not. Each of us are not going to agree on one way. That's why it is so interesting to have different opinions when it comes to implanting CI on children. Does that make me an Anti-CI, No it doesn't! Why? Because not once I've had a problem Implanting late-deafened adults, because it was their decision. ;)

Bottom line is that I've seen some implanting children and late-deafended adults stopped using ASL nor will not learn ASL well. <<That is a slap in the face to the deaf community. I don't want those implaninting children to not learn about Deaf culture, because they're still deaf without CI, CI is ONLY a device to help them hear. If parents are gotta just want their implanting children be involved ONLY in the hearing world instead of both world, that's not accepting the fact that the child is part of the Deaf culture too.
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:gpost: Beautiful, and well said there Cheri!!


I have to say I totally agree with her on this, cause I do see where both sides are coming from on this, I can understand where those of them who felt that implanting CI on children should have their say on this as well as parents who decide to implanted their chidren with CI cause they're the parents, like I said there always been two sides for a long time, and no one is going to agree on how children should be implanted with or without the parents decision...


I also absolutely agree that no one is wrong in this, everyone sees things differently, and every person's opinion/view should count, no matter what facts or informations that has provide us about cochlear implants and how well children are able to benefit out of those implants....

I just love to hear how everyone feels about the implants but that doesn't make them an Anti-CI IMO....
 
Cheri I have a question, you said,
Bottom line is that I've seen some implanting children and late-deafended adults stopped using ASL nor will not learn ASL well. <<That is a slap in the face to the deaf community. I don't want those implaninting children to not learn about Deaf culture, because they're still deaf without CI, CI is ONLY a device to help them hear. If parents are gotta just want their implanting children be involved ONLY in the hearing world instead of both world, that's not accepting the fact that the child is part of the Deaf culture too.
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If a child has never been involved with the deaf community to begin with, how is their not learning ASL a "slap in the face" to the deaf community? Yes the child is still biologically deaf, and can not hear when the processor is removed, but does having a deaf child make it mandatory that parents become involved with the deaf community? What if there IS no deaf community where they are? (there wasn't one where I lived - I didn't "become involved" with the deaf community until 8 years after I went deaf, when my family moved from the country to the city)

If a child who is born into a hearing family goes directly from infant to having a CI and being able to speak clearly, and hear what their family/friends are saying, and has no interaction with the deaf community, should there still be a requirement that the child learn ASL?

While I agree its best to involve total communication, sometimes it simply isn't possible. My own experience is proof. Everbody has different circumstances and different reasons. We have to be tolerant of them all.
 
neecy said:
Cheri I have a question, you saidf, If a child who is born into a hearing family goes directly from infant to having a CI and being able to speak clearly, and hear what their family/friends are saying, and has no interaction with the deaf community, should there still be a requirement that the child learn ASL?
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If a child is born into a hearing world and from a hearing family, while cochlear implants are not a cure for deafness, that doesn't mean the child cannot learn sign language. Let's not forget that the child is Deaf, was born Deaf, will always be Deaf regardless of how effective a user of their implant they become. You think that is fair for the child not to know his/her background the fact that the child was born Deaf?


Supposedly down the roads from now, a child grows up to be an adult, meets a deaf person for the first time, and a deaf person signs to a person who has no interaction with the deaf community, has no knowledge of signs, How would this person feels when he/she doesn't know any signs? I bet uncomfortable. Families should also have regular contact with Deaf people so that their children can learn sign language from other Deaf people naturally, or sign language classes..
 
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