Deaf and English Literacy

[Berry]

Hmm. I would suggest "The Eagle and the Raven," by Pauline Gedge. It's historical fiction about the time of Roman-era, Celtic Britain. Very large book, very thick reading. Frankly, Lord of the Rings was easier for me to read.

Anyone who is going to raise a girl with an idea of what heroism is in a woman should teach them about Boudicca. Whether it be this book or another.

 

[Berry]

This is a good point, but it is misleading. Anyone can learn whether they are deaf or hearing. The fact that a college level person can't get faster is false, he just learns slower than the three year old, there is no inherent cognitive ability.

As far as reading fast goes the issue at a 3rd and 4th grade level is with the words instead of the speed. And, you can't speed read a technical manual because comprehension drops to zero, you must comprehend first.

It is not misleading.

The point is not what anyone can learn -- It is about what anyone does learn.

The analogy is:

The Deaf guy can read fingerspelling at speeds and comprehension levels beyond what he can read on the printed page.

The College guy can read faster and with greater comprehension from the printed page than from fingerspelling.

The conclusion is that the test is biased and a group of Deaf could set up an equally biased test using their own criteria.

Which brings out a serious deficit in hearing education. In order for most highly educated hearing people to comprehend anything that is written, everything has to be spelled out for them in great, verbal, detail.

One might think a "higher" education might include a better understanding of context and extrapolation.

 

[mactoph]

Thank you

mactoph
It's not having a hearing loss that "causes" illiteracy /poor reading skills in hoh/d/Deaf ... It's our limited exposure to proper fluent language models during those critical first years when the brain is learning how to learn and understand language (which is why children who become hoh/deaf after 5-7 typically have the same literacy rates as their hearing peers, even if they aren't allowed access to signed language or cuing).

Thank you so much- this is very helpful. I appreciate your time.

 

[shel90]

If you are suggesting that a person needs to learn one language before another, can you link to some articles that support this?

people need full access to language during their formative years to become literate. Many deaf children dont have that due to the empasis that they must learn to hear and speak like hearing children.

 

[mactoph]

Help me understand my audism-

Sorry. I don't let audism pass without pointing it out. If you perceive that as nasty and combative; oh, well.

Hey jillio- can you help me better understand how my posts have reflected audism? Was it asking about the literacy grade level of a second language (English) that was offensive?

I apologize for not "getting it" yet, but if i can better understand I can hopefully work on changing my attitudes and not make the same mistake again...

Thanks any help or advice!

 

[Bottesini]

The reading ability of many hearing adults is less than the reading ability of many deaf adults.

Obviously the deaf can understand written English. This is a forum for the deaf that uses written English as the communication method. Duh.

I worry about hearing people's ability to think before they ask.

Hey jillio- can you help me better understand how my posts have reflected audism? Was it asking about the literacy grade level of a second language (English) that was offensive?

I apologize for not "getting it" yet, but if i can better understand I can hopefully work on changing my attitudes and not make the same mistake again...

Thanks any help or advice!

What's with you? She told you right away and I have quoted what she said.

Are you just trying to provoke?

 

[jillio]

Interesting. And I only made one post in this thread when that analysis was done.

Yeah. Without your post we probably would have been at a post high school level.

 

[jillio]

Hey jillio- can you help me better understand how my posts have reflected audism? Was it asking about the literacy grade level of a second language (English) that was offensive?

I apologize for not "getting it" yet, but if i can better understand I can hopefully work on changing my attitudes and not make the same mistake again...

Thanks any help or advice!

Your assumption that ASL using adults are less literate than English using adults. That is a misconception based wholly in audism.

 

[jillio]

If you are suggesting that a person needs to learn one language before another, can you link to some articles that support this?

Are you willing to pay for those articles?

 

[jillio]

I attribute my English literacy to the vast amounts of reading I did as a kid. I learned to speed read early on as I didn't attempt to vocalise the words in my head but read words visually recognising their shapes. There are loads of words I don't know how to pronounce but I know what they mean. I've read elsewhere that many people remain slow readers because they continue to vocalise the words inside their heads, sometimes revealed by their lips moving silently.

This is a first person account of what I have described as the way that most deaf people read, and why phonics is an unreasonable approach to use with the deaf when addressing reading skills. This is an indication that you are using a whole word approach to reading.

 

[mactoph]

Clarification

Your assumption that ASL using adults are less literate than English using adults. That is a misconception based wholly in audism.

A couple of points-

1. I think you are confused- I didn't ask whether Deaf people were more or less literate than hearing people, I asked about the English literacy of Deaf people. If someone asked me about my literacy in Spanish I wouldn't be offended because Spanish is not my primary language- is it different for ASL and English? My understanding is that they are two different languages.
2. It wasn't my assumption that Deaf people have a 3rd or 4th grade reading level, it is what I was told by Deaf people and what I read on a Gallaudet page about Literacy and Deaf Students. That number sounded low to me based on email conversations I have with Deaf people and I wanted to get some additional understanding.

 

[jillio]

A couple of points-

1. I think you are confused- I didn't ask whether Deaf people were more or less literate than hearing people, I asked about the English literacy of Deaf people. If someone asked me about my literacy in Spanish I wouldn't be offended because Spanish is not my primary language- is it different for ASL and English? My understanding is that they are two different languages.
2. It wasn't my assumption that Deaf people have a 3rd or 4th grade reading level, it is what I was told by Deaf people and what I read on a Gallaudet page about Literacy and Deaf Students. That number sounded low to me based on email conversations I have with Deaf people and I wanted to get some additional understanding.

No, I am not confused in the least. You, however, seem to think that the only way a Deaf person can comprehend material in a magazine is to make a vlog out of it using ASL. Audism.

The D/deaf are exposed to English in all it's forms on a consistent daily basis. They cannot help but be exposed unless they choose to completely isolate themselves. The assumption that fluency in ASL equates to less than fluent and literate use of English is audist.

 

[mactoph]

No, I am not confused in the least. You, however, seem to think that the only way a Deaf person can comprehend material in a magazine is to make a vlog out of it using ASL. Audism.

I didn't explain very well why we produce our magazine in ASL- it is not because we feel that Deaf people can't read English, it is because many Deaf people prefer ASL and there are some Deaf people who don't understand English as well as ASL because it is a second language. Is that Audism?

The D/deaf are exposed to English in all it's forms on a consistent daily basis. They cannot help but be exposed unless they choose to completely isolate themselves. The assumption that fluency in ASL equates to less than fluent and literate use of English is audist.

First, again- that wasn't some assumption that I had from my own biases. It is information I received from the Deaf community and the Gallaudet Research Institute. I'll admit I don't know a lot about Deaf culture, but I'm pretty sure Gallaudet is not an audist organization :P

I fully know that many and perhaps most Deaf people are very English literate, likely more so than I. But that doesn't mean that the research from Gallaudet is incorrect and that some Deaf people may have lower literacy rate in their 2nd language than they do in their 1st language.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

FACT:

No one, when reading for pleasure, reads anywhere near their maximum level. When reading for pleasure people read two to four grades below their capability.

I forget the study but when you stop and think about it this makes sense. When people read for pleasure they want to relax not study.

It makes perfect sense to me- for when I read for pleasure, I'd rather
not to be bothered with words I do not know and to which I should find
the meaning in the dictionary,
(Lawrence Sanders, for example, is well know for his series of detective stories
where he uses less common words on purpose and urges the "character" to "look it up" in the dictionary - while in a fact,
he means me and you! )

or books where the grammar is so complicated my brain is forced to perform
some kind of mental equivalent of Cirque du Soleil contortionist stretches

Just an example...

Fuzzy

 

[Audiofuzzy]

people need full access to language during their formative years to become literate. Many deaf children dont have that due to the empasis that they must learn to hear and speak like hearing children.

Shel, you made a valid point, and you are so right.
Now, how can we translate this into producing better magazine for the Deaf in the Mactoph community?

Originally Posted by jillio
No, I am not confused in the least. You, however, seem to think that the only way a Deaf person can comprehend material in a magazine is to make a vlog out of it using ASL. Audism.

I already TOLD you multiple time, it was MENTIONED limitless times already,
the thread owner clearly explained this in his very second thread:

Mactoph
I have heard from some Deaf members of our organization that the reading ability of many adults is that low. I have nothing else to base my experience- please correct me! I promise to be a good listener.

that this is NOT his personal opinion, but he was told by the VERY DEAF members about the illiteracy and more over,
it was the very Deaf members who asked him to simplify the English in the magazine:

Mactoph
I had talked with a couple of people from our local Deaf community and they shared with me a concern that they felt the English literacy level of at least a portion of the Deaf community would have difficulty with the English version of the magazine because the literacy rate of many was at a 3rd or 4th grade level. I had no other experience to base my question on, so that is where I started.

Clearly, the initiative came from the Deaf themselves.

It is interesting how you continue to be in denial about these glaring facts.

Are you going to accept that at last,

or should I warn Mr Mctoph that this is in fact your favorite behavior -
how you are not interested to be helpful in the least but rather to engage in trashy accusation, bullying and frankly, trolling?



Fuzzy

 

[posts from hell]

....

Why don't you try to contribute something TO Mactoph, instead of playing the part of a jaded moderator?

 

[Audiofuzzy]

I indeed wish I could do more- but the truth is I am not culturally Deaf
and I simply don't know much on the matter except about ASL and spoken/written English being two different languages what implication this have.

But is irks me to no end seeing how an innocent person comes in,
asks a question and instead of being helped is berated for simply being clueless and daring to seek help

More over, every time he patiently apologize and explains - the attacks not only continue but they escalate!

And you wonder why the hearies don't like the deafies!

And you, Mr Succinct Word and Master od Sarcasm - how about of being
helpful, for once, for real and generously spill but a drop of the vast
of Deaf wisdom you posses with this person who seeks merely enlightenment ?


Fuzzy

 

[posts from hell]

I indeed wish I could do more- but the truth is I am not culturally Deaf
and I simply don't know much on the matter except about ASL and spoken/written English being two different languages what implication this have.

But is irks me to no end seeing how an innocent person comes in,
asks a question and instead of being helped is berated for simply being clueless and daring to seek help

More over, every time he patiently apologize and explains - the attacks not only continue but they escalate!

And you wonder why the hearies don't like the deafies!

And you, Mr Succinct Word and Master od Sarcasm - how about of being
helpful, for once, for real and generously spill but a drop of the vast
of Deaf wisdom you posses with this person who seeks merely enlightenment ?


Fuzzy

There you go again with the moderating. I already have contributed my bit. Post #84 for your reference.

Also how do you reach to the idea that the hearies don't like the deafies?

 

[VacationGuy234]

It is not misleading.

The point is not what anyone can learn -- It is about what anyone does learn.

The analogy is:

The Deaf guy can read fingerspelling at speeds and comprehension levels beyond what he can read on the printed page.

The College guy can read faster and with greater comprehension from the printed page than from fingerspelling.

The conclusion is that the test is biased and a group of Deaf could set up an equally biased test using their own criteria.

Which brings out a serious deficit in hearing education. In order for most highly educated hearing people to comprehend anything that is written, everything has to be spelled out for them in great, verbal, detail.

One might think a "higher" education might include a better understanding of context and extrapolation.

Are you saying that both mainstream and deaf education is biased?

Yet, you are also saying that deaf people can learn to read just as well if given the chance to develop that ability?

And, you're saying that hearing people need to have greater detail to comprehend anything that is written? Are you talking about written finger spelling?


Is the fingers spelling example any different than a hearing guy who can talk but can't write or read?

I'm confused at who you are blaming here.

Yes, either side has it's disadvantages. How would you solve it while preserving the ability for both deaf and hearing to communicate? Let me guess, signed English?

 

[posts from hell]

Are you saying that both mainstream and deaf education is biased?

Yet, you are also saying that deaf people can learn to read just as well if given the chance to develop that ability?

And, you're saying that hearing people need to have greater detail to comprehend anything that is written? Are you talking about written finger spelling?


Is the fingers spelling example any different than a hearing guy who can talk but can't write or read?

I'm confused at who you are blaming here.

Yes, either side has it's disadvantages. How would you solve it while preserving the ability for both deaf and hearing to communicate? Let me guess, signed English?

You're confused because you're trying to find something that is not there. Berry is not blaming anyone of anything.