Deaf Adoption: A Rhetorician's New Family

A) You have no idea of the history rick has created in this forum, nor of the fact that he continually refuses to engage in intelligent discourse in a subject....

True, but then again it's doubly ironic that while you talk about the so-called lack of intelligent discourse while at the same time you have called names and resorted to ad hominem attacks. What am I supposed to think after seeing that?
 
No, but its implied!
Your daughter also is not a part of the Deaf community, as of now simply b/c she does not sign. That may change, but b/c she doesn't sign, she doesn't have access to the Deaf community. She has access to other "hearing impaired" people (which is good) but that's not the same as the Deaf community. Not at all.........

I concider this a rather hmmmm, dumb statement. I also think you have just kinda implied that you think those who are Deaf are better then those who are hoh. Seems like some things never change, huh? :)

The Deaf community itself is very small in and of itself. Yes many Deaf are very happy with their lives. But so are many of the deaf/hoh. You really can't lump everyone into the same boat, we are individuals, and many of us don't want to conform to your idea of what a deaf person should be. :)
 
I concider this a rather hmmmm, dumb statement. I also think you have just kinda implied that you think those who are Deaf are better then those who are hoh. Seems like some things never change, huh? :)

The Deaf community itself is very small in and of itself. Yes many Deaf are very happy with their lives. But so are many of the deaf/hoh. You really can't lump everyone into the same boat, we are individuals, and many of us don't want to conform to your idea of what a deaf person should be. :)

U and Deafdyke have good points... U are right that not everyone wants to conform into one image of what a deaf person shud be like but at the same time deafdyke is right about not having access to the Deaf community if u r not fluent in sign language. I don't think it has anything to do with the level of hearing loss..it has to do with being able to communicate easily in sign language. I was born severely profound deaf and had nothing to do with the Deaf community due to growing up oral and not knowing ASL until around 28 years old. My life centered around hearing people or my best friend who was oral deaf like me. It wasn't until I became fluent in ASL that I became actibely involved with the Deaf community. My best friend went thru the same too..she learned ASL later and now all her friends are signers just like me. We go to Deaf events when before we never did.

Since I am involved with the Deaf community, I see hoh and hearing people who are actively involved too simply because they can communicate using sign.
Heck, I have met many hoh and hearing people who r much more fluent in ASL than me.
In that case, Deafdyke is right about it..it is not about being better or per se..just the ability to communicate with the members in their language. It is simple as that.

Some Deaf or hoh people r not interested in the Deaf community like my friend's deaf sister and that's their choice. As long as they don't have that "iam better than u attitude", it is all good.
 
No, but its implied!
Your daughter also is not a part of the Deaf community, as of now simply b/c she does not sign. That may change, but b/c she doesn't sign, she doesn't have access to the Deaf community. She has access to other "hearing impaired" people (which is good) but that's not the same as the Deaf community. Not at all.........


I never said she was part of the Deaf community but rather, the deaf community, so your point is meaningless.
 
rick, she has access to other people who are deaf, but there's no real seperate oral deaf community, the way there's a seperate Deaf community. I mean the end goal of oralism is to make it so that they don't need sign or Deaf culture. And yes, I know about organizations like SHHH and AG Bell, but SHHH is mostly made up of old people (with a smattering of oral deaf and young hoh folks) and AG Bell tends to be more for the parents. If there's a vibrant deaf (non Deaf) community, then where are its magazines, organizations etc? Yes I know about the oral dhh section, but that does seem to be very small. Also a lot of members use Sign even if just as a second language. If oralism is supposed to make dhh a part of the hearing world, then why do they need a seperate deaf community?

And thank you shel. jag, I wasn't trying to insistuite that Deaf were better then hearing impaired/ hoh. Just saying that most oral deaf people feel that they belong to the hearing world, rather then to the deaf world. Sign is the bedrock of the Deaf community. If you don't know it, then you're not a part of the community. Simple as that.

Again, hearing loss range from mild to profound, and so therein lies the number of options best suited for that deaf or hoh child. It may be all of the tools in the toolbox, a few or just one. Just because a child does very well aurally only, for example, doesn't mean that sign language is necessary for language development in order to succeed. Or even needed for social reasons and so on. It's never so black and white all the time.
Yes, but degree of loss shouldn't dictate what methodologies or schooling options should be used. I know hoh folks who say they are totally comfortable in the hearing world, but then again I know many hoh folks who grew up orally and discovered ASL late, and say they wish they could have learned ASL early on. What's wrong with giving a child a full toolbox and letting THEM decide what tools they want to use? Our current system is too "oh they don't "need" that sort of thing.
Yet hoh (oral only usually) kids acheivements haven't been as sucessful as a lot of people would have you believe. There's high rates of drug and alchohol abuse and underacheivement.
I just find it so ironic that there's this debate. If ASL fluency was promoted as bilingalism, there wouldn't even be this debate. Isn't it better for a kid to be bilingal? Even people with unilateral loss could benifit, since they have trouble hearing in some situtions. Let the kid choose. The problem with the system is that we've gotten too obessed with choosing the methodology for the kids. The kid should be the one who choses the methodology.
Like my friend Katie's daughter is hoh. She went to a school for the deaf and Signed up til recently. She's now dropped it.....but it was her choice.
 
.....You have no idea of the history rick has created in this forum, nor of the fact that he continually refuses to engage in intelligent discourse in a subject. He has professionalized name calling and unfounded accusation. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever apologize to him. And, as you are advocating the use of sign in all deaf children, rick is at the other end of the spectrum from you. He is a strict oralist.

................QUOTE]
Or, from another point of view...

.....You have no idea of the history Jillio has created in this forum, nor of the fact that she continually refuses to engage in intelligent discourse in a subject. She has professionalized name calling and unfounded accusation. It will be a cold day in hell before she ever apologize to him. And, as you are advocating the use of sign in all deaf children, She is at the other end of the spectrum from you...
 
.....You have no idea of the history rick has created in this forum, nor of the fact that he continually refuses to engage in intelligent discourse in a subject. He has professionalized name calling and unfounded accusation. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever apologize to him. And, as you are advocating the use of sign in all deaf children, rick is at the other end of the spectrum from you. He is a strict oralist.

................QUOTE]
Or, from another point of view...

.....You have no idea of the history Jillio has created in this forum, nor of the fact that she continually refuses to engage in intelligent discourse in a subject. She has professionalized name calling and unfounded accusation. It will be a cold day in hell before she ever apologize to him. And, as you are advocating the use of sign in all deaf children, She is at the other end of the spectrum from you...

Stop changing my words, cloggy. I do not need your assistance, and if you were a bit more capable of reading what is writen, you would develop a greater understanding of the issues. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write.
 
True, but then again it's doubly ironic that while you talk about the so-called lack of intelligent discourse while at the same time you have called names and resorted to ad hominem attacks. What am I supposed to think after seeing that?

Yes I have. However, it is in response to those attacks that were leveled on me prior and in other forums. That, however, does not make it right, and I am indeed wrong in doing so. In the future, when those attacks are leveled simply because I have pointed out a drawback to an oral only method of language acquisition for a deaf child, I will stick to the logical arguments, even though a language deprived child and anyone who believes that denying that child the opportunity to acquire language in whatever way is possible evokes a very emotional response in me. Despite the accusations and incorrect assumptions that have been made, I am not against the learning of speech skills, nor of the idea of implantation. I do however, object to restricting a child to using only those tools that focus on the deficit rather than using the strengths to overcome the deficit.
 
Stop changing my words, cloggy. I do not need your assistance, and if you were a bit more capable of reading what is writen, you would develop a greater understanding of the issues. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write.
No assistance intended....

....... and if you were a bit more capable of reading what is written, you would develop a greater understanding of the issues. I write what I mean, and I mean what I write.
 
Yes I have. However, it is in response to those attacks that were leveled on me prior and in other forums. That, however, does not make it right, and I am indeed wrong in doing so. In the future, when those attacks are leveled simply because I have pointed out a drawback to an oral only method of language acquisition for a deaf child, I will stick to the logical arguments, even though a language deprived child and anyone who believes that denying that child the opportunity to acquire language in whatever way is possible evokes a very emotional response in me. Despite the accusations and incorrect assumptions that have been made, I am not against the learning of speech skills, nor of the idea of implantation. I do however, object to restricting a child to using only those tools that focus on the deficit rather than using the strengths to overcome the deficit.

Yes, it doesn't make it right.

I never took sign language when I was little. I had the use of my hearing aid since age two and had the full support of my parents and school. I took advantage whatever positive hearing I had left and made good on it. My language development didn't suffer and had the support and help of my parents as well as school. It was all mostly aural and my reading skills and grades were at the same level than that of my hearing peers. Went to regular school (none of that mainstreaming program since it wasn't necessary on my part) and graduated from high school at age 18 with a B/B+ average.

Now, having said that. Just because one doesn't use or take sign language doesn't mean that a deaf/hh child will not develop their language adequately. They can. What I had was the support and understanding from my parents and schools, and that I was exposed aurally at an early age of two. Many may think I'm a walking contradiction but not so. There are many people like me with the amount and kind of hearing loss and they're able to use their hearing aid quite successfully from elementary school to college all without the use of sign language.
 
Kokonut, I'm happy that you managed to develop good English skills without the help of sign. Speaking for myself, I didn't learn sign till I was 13; I don't sign like a native user of ASL.

However, I should note here that not everyone benefited well enough from hearing aids to pick up language skills - especially spoken language. Cochlear implant failures are rare but they do happen.

It is much harder for those who are unable to get access via aural means to learn how spoken language works. Even some of my classmates with better hearing than I do had problems with English. Even so, some do manage to learn English like you and me. However, I don't believe in a one size fits all approach. I'd rather have as many deaf kids as possible learn good English skills and not try to force them to fit the Oral way.

Some people with more moderate loss than I have prefer sign language.

Personally, I think the Oral way works best with those who have very mild loss. Many deaf even if they have excellent English skills can have a difficult time trying to understand other hearing people.

That is why many deaf even with excellent oral skills and English skills prefer sign as it put them on on an equal footing with their peers.

No one is advocating a sign only approach. I think you should be able to develop oral skills as well - if it's at all feasible.

My concern here is that deaf should be able to learn English (or any other language) skills by any means available. I'm not interested in blind ideology.

My point here is that if you don't limit your self to one way, you're more likely to to succeed.
 
Kokonut, I'm happy that you managed to develop good English skills without the help of sign. Speaking for myself, I didn't learn sign till I was 13; I don't sign like a native user of ASL.

However, I should note here that not everyone benefited well enough from hearing aids to pick up language skills - especially spoken language. Cochlear implant failures are rare but they do happen.

It is much harder for those who are unable to get access via aural means to learn how spoken language works. Even some of my classmates with better hearing than I do had problems with English. Even so, some do manage to learn English like you and me. However, I don't believe in a one size fits all approach. I'd rather have as many deaf kids as possible learn good English skills and not try to force them to fit the Oral way.

Some people with more moderate loss than I have prefer sign language.

Personally, I think the Oral way works best with those who have very mild loss. Many deaf even if they have excellent English skills can have a difficult time trying to understand other hearing people.

That is why many deaf even with excellent oral skills and English skills prefer sign as it put them on on an equal footing with their peers.

No one is advocating a sign only approach. I think you should be able to develop oral skills as well - if it's at all feasible.

My concern here is that deaf should be able to learn English (or any other language) skills by any means available. I'm not interested in blind ideology.

My point here is that if you don't limit your self to one way, you're more likely to to succeed.

A note. Orally means the use of speech (ie enunciation, control, volume, etc). Aurally means the use of sound by listening and understanding spoken words which, believe it or not, does require practice for those with hearing loss and can succeed very well provided they are exposed to such language early on. There is a myth that only those with mild hearing loss are best suited for oral practice (which I believe you meant aurally and orally). I would disagree with your contention that only children with mild hearing loss would benefit from such practices. It's not that simple.

Let me ask you a question. If a person who wears a hearing aid has a 96% word discrimination is able to easily talk on his/her cell phone (even without the hearing aid) to anybody even strangers, talk to people with ease, listen to talk radio, can watch TV shows or news (with no music or background noises getting in the way of voices in many cases) without needing captioning, and so on. Would this person hearing loss be characterized as having mild, moderate, moderately severe, severe or profound?

Think before you answer this.

Next, I am not implying that there is a one size fit all but rather a caveat that each child is different and potentials vary from one to another. Which is why many people say that I'm a walking contradiction and mostly it's from the Deaf community who may not necessarily understand the value of early listening. Each hearing loss is different in amount based on frequency loss for each range at the 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, and 8000 Hertz level. Hearing loss is about frequency loss in each range and so the audiogram chart can look like anything but a straight line.

More on that later...
 
Kokonut, I'm happy that you managed to develop good English skills without the help of sign. Speaking for myself, I didn't learn sign till I was 13; I don't sign like a native user of ASL.

However, I should note here that not everyone benefited well enough from hearing aids to pick up language skills - especially spoken language. Cochlear implant failures are rare but they do happen.

It is much harder for those who are unable to get access via aural means to learn how spoken language works. Even some of my classmates with better hearing than I do had problems with English. Even so, some do manage to learn English like you and me. However, I don't believe in a one size fits all approach. I'd rather have as many deaf kids as possible learn good English skills and not try to force them to fit the Oral way.

Some people with more moderate loss than I have prefer sign language.

Personally, I think the Oral way works best with those who have very mild loss. Many deaf even if they have excellent English skills can have a difficult time trying to understand other hearing people.

That is why many deaf even with excellent oral skills and English skills prefer sign as it put them on on an equal footing with their peers.

No one is advocating a sign only approach. I think you should be able to develop oral skills as well - if it's at all feasible.

My concern here is that deaf should be able to learn English (or any other language) skills by any means available. I'm not interested in blind ideology.

My point here is that if you don't limit your self to one way, you're more likely to to succeed.[/QUOTE]


I see that in my deaf friends who were exposed to both languages since birth as opposed to those who were exposed to only one way.
 
A note. Orally means the use of speech (ie enunciation, control, volume, etc). Aurally means the use of sound by listening and understanding spoken words which, believe it or not, does require practice for those with hearing loss and can succeed very well provided they are exposed to such language early on. There is a myth that only those with mild hearing loss are best suited for oral practice (which I believe you meant aurally and orally). I would disagree with your contention that only children with mild hearing loss would benefit from such practices. It's not that simple.

Let me ask you a question. If a person who wears a hearing aid has a 96% word discrimination is able to easily talk on his/her cell phone (even without the hearing aid) to anybody even strangers, talk to people with ease, listen to talk radio, can watch TV shows or news (with no music or background noises getting in the way of voices in many cases) without needing captioning, and so on. Would this person hearing loss be characterized as having mild, moderate, moderately severe, severe or profound?

Think before you answer this.

Next, I am not implying that there is a one size fit all but rather a caveat that each child is different and potentials vary from one to another. Which is why many people say that I'm a walking contradiction and mostly it's from the Deaf community who may not necessarily understand the value of early listening. Each hearing loss is different in amount based on frequency loss for each range at the 125, 250, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, and 8000 Hertz level. Hearing loss is about frequency loss in each range and so the audiogram chart can look like anything but a straight line.

More on that later...

Exactly. Which is why 2 children with exactly the ame pattern of hearing loss will not always be able to achieve the same discrimination scores. Or why a child with more actual auditory perception in the speech ranges will not be able to discriminate as well as a child with less auditory perception in the speech ranges. There are simply more variables that loss measured from a dB and frequency standpoint.
 
Exactly. Which is why 2 children with exactly the same pattern of hearing loss will not always be able to achieve the same discrimination scores. Or why a child with more actual auditory perception in the speech ranges will not be able to discriminate as well as a child with less auditory perception in the speech ranges. There are simply more variables that loss measured from a dB and frequency standpoint.

Yes, that's true. No experiences are alike. However, it all has to do with early exposure and support. The key is earlier the better.

Let me tell you a true story. Back when I was about 4 or 5 years old there was another boy who lived a few houses down who had the same hearing loss as I did. My Mom and that kid’s Mom even compared their audiograms of us. We were nearly identical with near exact speech threshold diagram on the frequency part where speech would be most conducive. The problem was the other mother hardly helped her son develop any speaking or listening skills with his hearing aid. All he did was scream, point fingers and such. As for me, my mother encouraged and helped me develop my speaking and listening skill with the aid of my hearing aid and engaged me in such a way that I took advantage of my brain’s early plasticity on auditory development. As we grew older I pulled way out ahead of him where I ended up on par with my hearing peers in terms of language, reading, writing and the ability to communicate effectively. Him? He stayed well behind in grade level, never talked or improved his listening skills. His window of opportunity was simply gone. It’s a sad story.

Now, in my earlier post where I described for those who wear a hearing aid in the ability to talk, listen, use phone, listen to radio, etc, what would the hearing loss be like in order for that to be achieved successfully? Mild? Moderate? Moderately severe? Severe? Or Profound hearing loss?
 
Yes, that's true. No experiences are alike. However, it all has to do with early exposure and support. The key is earlier the better.

Let me tell you a true story. Back when I was about 4 or 5 years old there was another boy who lived a few houses down who had the same hearing loss as I did. My Mom and that kid’s Mom even compared their audiograms of us. We were nearly identical with near exact speech threshold diagram on the frequency part where speech would be most conducive. The problem was the other mother hardly helped her son develop any speaking or listening skills with his hearing aid. All he did was scream, point fingers and such. As for me, my mother encouraged and helped me develop my speaking and listening skill with the aid of my hearing aid and engaged me in such a way that I took advantage of my brain’s early plasticity on auditory development. As we grew older I pulled way out ahead of him where I ended up on par with my hearing peers in terms of language, reading, writing and the ability to communicate effectively. Him? He stayed well behind in grade level, never talked or improved his listening skills. His window of opportunity was simply gone. It’s a sad story.

Now, in my earlier post where I described for those who wear a hearing aid in the ability to talk, listen, use phone, listen to radio, etc, what would the hearing loss be like in order for that to be achieved successfully? Mild? Moderate? Moderately severe? Severe? Or Profound hearing loss?

My son is profoudly deaf. With the use of HA and AVT, as well as my extreme involvement, he also developed speech skills and listenign skills, and can function ina hearing world when he chooses to do so. He also was exposed to the Deaf community from the age of 2, and he and I both learned ASL from native signers as a result. He was provided with role models of successful Deaf adults who lived their lives as Deaf individuals. He wa aminstreamed for the first 4 years of his academic career with a terp, and when he began to experience socialization problems based on hearing educators inability to deal with a deaf student, and harmful attitudes toward his deafness, from both educators, administrators, and other students, I relocvated in order to send him to a school for the deaf as a day student. He received not only oral and sign input from hearing teachers, but also ASL input from Deaf teachers, but also continued oral and sign input from home. As a consequence, he is able to use his oral skills to function in the hearing world when it is necessary. However, he also has made the choice to ID as Deaf, and prefers ASL in his communications. He is currently a college student at a large major university, uses a terp in class along with a notetaker, and is carrying a 3.5 overall GPA as a psychology major. Because he was exposed to both sign and speech from an early age, he has been able to develop bilingaul skill. Becasue he was exposed to the Deaf community from an early age, he was able to develop a realistic picture of what deafness is from those who live with it on a daily basis, and not simply what other hearing people think deafness is. Consequently, he was able to pass through the developmental stages necessary to develop his own identity, and is extremely comfortable with his deafness. He is not consumed with trying to disguise or hide his deafness, or to try and correct his deafness, or to take any action to make himself more hearing. He is able to use his energies to focus on becoming successful with his deafness. He is able to focus on his education and work toward the career that he has chosen as a deaf person. He is not concerned that his lack of hearing will interfere with that, because he was given the experiences of seeing real life examples that one does not have to alter who one is in order to be successful and happy. I would like, more than anything else, for all deaf children to be given the early childhood experience that allows them to develop not only language, but positive self image and well adjusted attitude that is as necessary to successful living as is communication. In the deaf students I worl with, those who have been raised in such an environment are doing well. Those however, who have been raised in an ora environment, are not. They are lagging behind educationally due to liguistic issues, they are isecure functioning in a hearing environment such as a college, and their focus is on not drawing attention to their deafness rather than succesfully living with it.

Shel and her brother are both profoundly deaf. They werre raised in the same environment. Shel was able to develop oral skills; her brother was not. Shel was educated orally, her brother attended a school for the deaf. Shel admits that she still carries the scars from her experience. Her brother adjusted much more readily to his deafness. Both are well educated, shel has a master's degree and is an educator of the deaf. Her brother is working on his master's degree to become an educator for the deaf. Both are successful. However, shel's brother became well adjusted to his deafness; shel was denied the opportunity to do so, and has only come to grips with the implications as an adult. Her brother did not have to exert the amount of energy that did shel to arrive at the same place.

I agree that early support and linguistic input is an extremely important variable. But I will also add that the nature of that experience is just as important. And I find experience that exposes a child to examples of learning to live with deafness is more imprtant than exposure to experiences in teaching a child how to function in spite of their deafness. These are two completely different experiences. A deaf child must learn to communicate, yes. A deaf child must be educated, yes. But more than anything, before that deaf child will be able to function as an adult in the hearing world, he or she must first learn to be a deaf child.
 
A deaf child must learn to communicate, yes. A deaf child must be educated, yes. But more than anything, before that deaf child will be able to function as an adult in the hearing world, he or she must first learn to be a deaf child.

I see where you're going but my question hasn't been answered regarding hearing loss and learning how to listen and speak with the use of heaing aids. And secondly, not sure what you meant by "..he or she must first learn to be a deaf child." If it's about acknowledging deafness, sure. Then again we're talking about hearing loss than can range anywhere from mild to profound.
 
I see where you're going but my question hasn't been answered regarding hearing loss and learning how to listen and speak with the use of heaing aids. And secondly, not sure what you meant by "..he or she must first learn to be a deaf child." If it's about acknowledging deafness, sure. Then again we're talking about hearing loss than can range anywhere from mild to profound.

To answer the question, there are those with severe to profound losses that are able to communicate on the phone and speak and listen using an HA. Deaf children learn to speak and listen with HA using the same methods that children with CI use. The difference is not in the methods used to accomplish such, but in the technology use.

And what I meant about learning to live as a deaf child is that, no matter what the technology used to increase sound perception, a deaf child will always be a deaf child. Unfortunately, they are too many times given the impression as young children, and the message is expanded upon during adolescense, that they are not whole deaf children, but hearing children with something wrong with them. Just yesterday, I read a post from a deaf teenager in AD stating that she was broken. She was anxious to get a CI. That attitude combined with too high expectations for technology without a realistic perspective on the limitations creates an atmosphere that does harm to the social and emotional development of deaf children. And until we attend to all aspects of deafness, we will not succeed in creating educational or linguistic environments that will allow them to achieve their full potential.
 
......... Just yesterday, I read a post from a deaf teenager in AD stating that she was broken. ........
What's wrong with not wanting to be deaf?
What's wrong with wanting to hear?

......... And until we attend to all aspects of deafness, we will not succeed in creating educational or linguistic environments that will allow them to achieve their full potential......
..which could take say 10-15 years.... years of first developing social problems, then years of solving them and when all's OK, and deafness is fully integrated in one's being, then, and only then, one can make a decision...
No thanks...

You did great with your child, based on YOUR decision. Not his.
Rick did great with his child, based on HIS decision. Not hers
I hope I will be just as fortunate as the two of you.... with the decision we took.
 
To answer the question, there are those with severe to profound losses that are able to communicate on the phone and speak and listen using an HA. Deaf children learn to speak and listen with HA using the same methods that children with CI use. The difference is not in the methods used to accomplish such, but in the technology use.


The ability to carry on normal conversations even with strangers? That's what I'm getting at. Let's say the test is to work at a job that involves phone conversations with people, take orders or whatever. Can this be done by those who wear a hearing aid who have severe or even profound hearing loss?

I'd agree that those with severe hearing loss may be able to do that but only on a limited basis but certainly not so for those with profound hearing loss. Name a person you know that has a profound hearing loss who uses his/her hearing aid and can use the phone without much problems and can carry on normal conversations even with strangers.
 
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