culture? disability? impaired

[apathrev]

Touchy much?

ASL is not a derivative of English. Signs are do not mean specific words, but more of concepts and ideas.

 

[bigdaddyb]

Only you wouldn't think you were disabled. Funny how that works. Just because dhh is the minority doesn't mean hearing is any more right or valid. The difference is more a matter of communication and language than one being right or wrong. Are immigrants who don't understand English disabled too?

This is just plain silly. If part of your body doesn't work right, it's a disability. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of any issue, object, or being. Declaring an impairment that effects a small percentage of the population as 'normal' is what's delusional.

The immigrant question is ridiculous. Hearing isn't just about sound. It effects how one perceives the world around them. It's not a language issue.

The real issue here is this. Does disability = inferiority? No. Only a complete moron makes that assumption. I have a disability. My brain doesn't function the way that 99.999999% of everyone else's does. Yep. I'm different. I have great difficulty in accomplishing things that 99.9999999% of the world finds so easy that they seldom think of it. My wife is HOH. It's a disability. My son has Asperger's. It's a disability.

Disability doesn't change the inherant value of the individual. Playing word games to try and feel better about oneself doesn't work and makes the person look foolish to the rest of the world.

If you're not disabled, you don't need special accomodations. Don't cash the checks, don't accept the equipment subsidies and corporate services/discounts. Otherwise, call it what it is and STILL be proud of who you are and what you can accomplish.

In my time here on AD, I've noticed some things. Some in the deaf community put the hearing world in an no-win position. There are threads that discuss the insult paid when the hearing ignore deaf people, or when the hearing make zero effort to communicate with the deaf. On the other hand, there are threads about how pissed some deaf people get when hearies try to communicate with them.

I'm honestly confused. I've seen extremely polar, diametrically opposed opinions come from the same people. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive here. As a hearie, I'm really confused.

brianb

 

[sr171soars]

....
In my time here on AD, I've noticed some things. Some in the deaf community put the hearing world in an no-win position. There are threads that discuss the insult paid when the hearing ignore deaf people, or when the hearing make zero effort to communicate with the deaf. On the other hand, there are threads about how pissed some deaf people get when hearies try to communicate with them.

I'm honestly confused. I've seen extremely polar, diametrically opposed opinions come from the same people. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive here. As a hearie, I'm really confused.

brianb

Very well said and I can't blame you for being confused. I have seen a lot of that in various threads and I totally refuse to get into those discussions for the simple reason that it is asinine. I agree with you that there are schizophrenic viewpoints about how those who are deaf see the world and themselves. They will struggle with this all their lives (even if they get HAs or a CI [like me]). Remember that there are always people with extreme viewpoints and the deaf are no different in that department. At the same time, there are those who have more moderate or balanced viewpoints too. The trick is to not get bogged down in that and take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Teresh]

This is just plain silly. If part of your body doesn't work right, it's a disability. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of any issue, object, or being. Declaring an impairment that effects a small percentage of the population as 'normal' is what's delusional.

OK, so any group of people that is 'different' from the white, hearing, heteronormative can't be considered 'normal'? Am I the only one that things this is ridiculous? Does 'normal' even exist for it to be compared to?

The immigrant question is ridiculous. Hearing isn't just about sound. It effects how one perceives the world around them. It's not a language issue.

Yes, it does affect how a person perceives the world. Not questioning that. But the lack of communication and general animosity between Deaf and hearing comes as a result of a language barrier, something neither can easily overcome. It's the same thing with immigrants that don't know English. Only instead of the words 'Deaf' and 'hearing', we use the words 'English' and 'Hispanic', 'English' and 'Hindi' or 'English' and 'Chinese'. Saying that a person is 'hearing impaired' is like saying that hearing is supposted to be right and that anything else is wrong. Are Chinese immigrants 'English impaired'? Are LGB folks 'heterosexually impaired'? Seriously.

If you're not disabled, you don't need special accomodations. Don't cash the checks, don't accept the equipment subsidies and corporate services/discounts. Otherwise, call it what it is and STILL be proud of who you are and what you can accomplish.

I've never accepted anything of the sort with the exception of being loaned an FM system by my university. I've never received any money, subsidies or discounts for the way I am and would not accept any were the offered.

There are threads that discuss the insult paid when the hearing ignore deaf people, or when the hearing make zero effort to communicate with the deaf. On the other hand, there are threads about how pissed some deaf people get when hearies try to communicate with them.

This I actually agree with. Some deafies have a problem with hearies. I don't understand it. Having hearing is one of multiple ways to exist. There's nothing *wrong* with being hearing any more than there is anything *wrong* with being dhh. Hearing people need to stop looking at dhh people as diseased and dhh need to stop looking down on hearing people.

 

[deafdyke]

Are Chinese immigrants 'English impaired'? Are LGB folks 'heterosexually impaired'?

Exactly...impaired sounds like we're broken....are females Y chromosome or penis impaired? It's simply another way of being that is EQUAL to being hearing!

 

[bigdaddyb]

OK, so any group of people that is 'different' from the white, hearing, heteronormative can't be considered 'normal'? Am I the only one that things this is ridiculous? Does 'normal' even exist for it to be compared to?

Who said anything about white, heterowhateverthehellthatmeans? I'm talking about all systems of the body functioning within medically identified norms.

Personally, I've fought long and hard to have my deaf friends considered people first, deaf somewhere down the line by my hearing friends. Personally, I don't consider any disability as the defining characteristic of a person. My disability, my son's, my wife's, etc. put us outside of medically defined norms for physical function. Face it folks.

That's what dhh boils down to. Something in the sound receiving and processing parts of the body don't work as they should. I have a paraplegic co-worker. Her CNS doesn't work at a level that is considered 'normal' in a clinical sense.

Saying that a person is 'hearing impaired' is like saying that hearing is supposted to be right and that anything else is wrong. Are Chinese immigrants 'English impaired'? Are LGB folks 'heterosexually impaired'? Seriously.

The language arguement is just plain silly. Regardless of language, people have the ability to process audible language.

What's sexual identity got to do with this discussion? You keep bringing it up. I don't see it as seguitur to the topic at hand.

I've never accepted anything of the sort with the exception of being loaned an FM system by my university. I've never received any money, subsidies or discounts for the way I am and would not accept any were the offered.

It's there. My tax dollars helped fund it. Take it. Personally, I consider support for the disabled to be a wise investment of government funds. It's so rare that I actually see a wise investment of governemnt funds. Please utilize what's there. It helps take away the sting of my yearly tax bill.

I'm glad that you are driven and self-sufficient. You'll never regret the work required to be your own person.

It's the Americans with Disabilities Act, not the Americans with Marginally Different Physical and Mental Normal Ways of Being Act.

Once again. Changing what you call something doesn't change what it is.

brianb

 

[apathrev]

Just a quick note on disabilities. This day in age, almost everything falls under disabilities. I'm considered disabled because I have ADD, which is a fancy way of saying I need to be slapped on the face and told to pay attention. ADD is a bullshit disorder. Obese people are considered disabled, too. And people with anger problems.

 

[VamPyroX]

I agree with you. It's something that I think people should learn to accept and understand. The politically correct way of labeling a deaf person is... "hearing impaired". Sorry, that's the way it is. Deaf people should accept it. The same thing goes for race. The politically correct way of labeling a black person is... "african american" and a chinese/japanese/korean person is... "asian". Yet, many people don't see it that way and they go too far with how they should be labeled. I've seen oral deaf people label themselves "hard-of-hearing" and profound deaf people label themselves as "deaf". However, when they fill out an application for SSI or other federal documentations... they are offended when they are referred to as "hearing-impaired". Too bad, that's how it is. I know one woman here at NTID who's black and is from Africa. She considers herself "black". There's another woman who's not from Africa (born in America). She considers herself "African". Strangely, the woman who calls herself "black" still has high pride in her roots... while the woman who calls herself "African" still has high pride in her 'ghetto' roots.

 

[bigdaddyb]

Exactly...impaired sounds like we're broken....are females Y chromosome or penis impaired? It's simply another way of being that is EQUAL to being hearing!

It's interesting that the term 'impaired' is considered derogatory here. I've never known anyone in the hearing world who considered it to be a term that degrades the intrinsic value of a human being.

I don't understand the point-of-view that all ways of being are equal. I have TS/OCD. My way of being is NOT EQUAL to that of people who don't face a major neurological disfunction. I fight battles that they don't know exist. I struggle to do things that they never give a conscious thought to.

Neurologically, I'm not different but equal. I'm different and impaired. It doesn't change my value as a person. I'm not less of a person. My intellect is not effected. My quality of life and my abilities to handle certain situations are significantly diminished at times.

I don't understand how, conceptually, this is any different than any other disability. A paraplegic is a paraplegic. They are neurologically impaired. A blind person is a blind person. They are visually impaired. It's simple logic.

What am I missing here? Semantics and nomenclature don't change people's thinking about issues. It is what it is.

brianb

 

[sr171soars]

It's interesting that the term 'impaired' is considered derogatory here. I've never known anyone in the hearing world who considered it to be a term that degrades the intrinsic value of a human being.

I don't understand how, conceptually, this is any different than any other disability. A paraplegic is a paraplegic. They are neurologically impaired. A blind person is a blind person. They are visually impaired. It's simple logic.

What am I missing here? Semantics and nomenclature don't change people's thinking about issues. It is what it is.

brianb

What you are missing is that the "Deaf" world doesn't want to be labelled as "impaired" as if they are missing something (see deafdyke). They are fighting that all the way because that states they are imperfect and all that follows.

Personally, I disagree with the view that being labelled "hearing-impaired" is offensive. I am "hearing impaired" and so what? In no way do I believe does it imply that I'm of less value than others. Basically, it all involves how the deaf precieves how they are thought of and treated in general by the larger hearing world out there.

 

[deafdyke]

It's interesting that the term 'impaired' is considered derogatory here. I've never known anyone in the hearing world who considered it to be a term that degrades the intrinsic value of a human being.

Well what about the term DWI, driving while impaired?

I don't understand the point-of-view that all ways of being are equal. I have TS/OCD. My way of being is NOT EQUAL to that of people who don't face a major neurological disfunction. I fight battles that they don't know exist. I struggle to do things that they never give a conscious thought to.

Neurologically, I'm not different but equal. I'm different and impaired. It doesn't change my value as a person. I'm not less of a person. My intellect is not effected. My quality of life and my abilities to handle certain situations are significantly diminished at times.

Well I think that nereologically affected people (by this label I include people with mental disorders, learning disabilties, and mental retardation) are impaired....their disabilty hits at the very core of the soul....but many PHYSICAL disablities don't really affect your day to day life all that much. You CAN learn to adapt to physcial disabilties.

I don't understand how, conceptually, this is any different than any other disability. A paraplegic is a paraplegic. They are neurologically impaired. A blind person is a blind person. They are visually impaired. It's simple logic.

I've never heard of a para being called nereologically impaired. That's usually used for mild MR and learning disabilties. And, a lot of blind people object to being called visually impaired....the correct term is low vision.
We object to the term impaired b/c it sounds like we sit in a corner whining that we can't function like a person without a disabilty....it sounds like being disabled is horrible and bad and all that.
Yes, you deal with a lot of stuff that people without nereological involvement do, but so what? Black people do too, so do females, so do GLB folks, so do poor people....so does everyone who doesn't fit the stereotype of The Average White Good Ol' Boy "Normal" average White Suburban Christian Amercain citizien.
I remmy one time overhearing one of my friends who is GLB saying that she had never felt 100% comfortable with straight folks....at the time I wasn't out, but I remember going "Wow....that's how I feel about not fitting in 100% with hearies!"

 

[je_suis_chic]

This is just plain silly. If part of your body doesn't work right, it's a disability. Changing the name doesn't change the nature of any issue, object, or being. Declaring an impairment that effects a small percentage of the population as 'normal' is what's delusional.

The immigrant question is ridiculous. Hearing isn't just about sound. It effects how one perceives the world around them. It's not a language issue.

The real issue here is this. Does disability = inferiority? No. Only a complete moron makes that assumption. I have a disability. My brain doesn't function the way that 99.999999% of everyone else's does. Yep. I'm different. I have great difficulty in accomplishing things that 99.9999999% of the world finds so easy that they seldom think of it. My wife is HOH. It's a disability. My son has Asperger's. It's a disability.

Disability doesn't change the inherant value of the individual. Playing word games to try and feel better about oneself doesn't work and makes the person look foolish to the rest of the world.

If you're not disabled, you don't need special accomodations. Don't cash the checks, don't accept the equipment subsidies and corporate services/discounts. Otherwise, call it what it is and STILL be proud of who you are and what you can accomplish.

In my time here on AD, I've noticed some things. Some in the deaf community put the hearing world in an no-win position. There are threads that discuss the insult paid when the hearing ignore deaf people, or when the hearing make zero effort to communicate with the deaf. On the other hand, there are threads about how pissed some deaf people get when hearies try to communicate with them.

I'm honestly confused. I've seen extremely polar, diametrically opposed opinions come from the same people. I'm not trying to be rude or offensive here. As a hearie, I'm really confused.

brianb

amen!

 

[je_suis_chic]

still has high pride in her 'ghetto' roots.

lmao!!!!! That was great.

 

[sr171soars]

Well what about the term DWI, driving while impaired?

Not a relevant argument as a DWI is self inflicted (and gradually recedes and goes away) not something one was born with such as being deaf or blind. There are some of people who think being impaired (in the context of hearing) as a offensive word but not most people. I agree with bigdaddyb that the hearing world in general does not think of people with hearing losses are some kind of human of lessor intrinsic value. I also realize are there people out who treat people with any form of disability (for the lack of a better word) like worthless people just because of disgust, fear, have no understanding of the situation, and etc... I make no excuses for them and it should not be.

Yes, you deal with a lot of stuff that people without nereological involvement do, but so what? Black people do too, so do females, so do GLB folks, so do poor people....so does everyone who doesn't fit the stereotype of The Average White Good Ol' Boy "Normal" average White Suburban Christian Amercain citizien.

This is a even more pathetic argument. What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Do you honestly think any society is going to have an easier time integrating people with impairments? It is not something just limited to here. Even within subgroups here there is little tolerance for some differences so it is not just some WASP thing as you like to paint it. It is a universal phenomenon and goes across cultures. How about such people trying to live in China, an Islamic country or any other place and see how these folks fare...not easily I think.

Getting back to the point of this whole thread about the term of "hearing impairment", I can believe there is something such as Deaf culture. But it is predicated on the fact the people who belong to it invariably have a hearing loss which is why they are in it. They feel that is a place where they can be on equal terms with others primarily due to the unique form of communication without spoken words. The issue of feeling a sense of belonging and acceptance is very important to anybody and it is difficult for a deaf person to feel that in normal society. This very fact points out they don't feel equal out in the normal hearing world (not all of them of course but most). Nobody believes that the average person has a "thing" about deaf people or others with different issues and out to do what they can to make them miserable.

People crave conformity across the board and for them dealing with somebody "different" is not easy to do. I think of some of the comments by some here in this forum using the term hearies (almost in a derogratory way) and intolerance toward them if they try to communicate with them especially if they are sincere. Who is being hypocritical here? What goes around comes around... I have been to G college in DC a long time ago when I was a younger man visiting a former teacher (who became an administrator there) I knew when I was a child. I couldn't believe the upturned noses at me because I was not one of them just because I could function as a hearing person with a HA and it was like I was a traitor or something. That left a deep impression about the deaf in my mind for a long time. The bottom line is the fact in the realm of humanity across the entire planet, hearing is a normal attribute and the lack thereof is considered an impairment. Not in the sense lacking equality as human beings but rather lacking in a typical physical ability. I seen too much defensiveness with this whole concept.

I have a hearing loss and it is now to the point I'm totally deaf due to my CI. It is a choice I made and I'm doing very well with it. Still I know the reality is that I have a hearing impairment and *shrugs* why should I care what others think of me. I'm functional and most normal people usually never notice I'm deaf...I'm just stating a fact. I don't run and hide from it but rather I just deal with it each and every day. I grew up in the hearing world and it is not as a bad place some had made it out to be. Yes, you run into clueless and even nasty people sometimes but who amongst us doesn't? It is not limited to the hearing world. I seen enough with the deaf that basically a spade is a spade and people are people the world over.

 

[je_suis_chic]

Not a relevant argument as a DWI is self inflicted (and gradually recedes and goes away) not something one was born with such as being deaf or blind. There are some of people who think being impaired (in the context of hearing) as a offensive word but not most people. I agree with bigdaddyb that the hearing world in general does not think of people with hearing losses are some kind of human of lessor intrinsic value. I also realize are there people out who treat people with any form of disability (for the lack of a better word) like worthless people just because of disgust, fear, have no understanding of the situation, and etc... I make no excuses for them and it should not be.



This is a even more pathetic argument. What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Do you honestly think any society is going to have an easier time integrating people with impairments? It is not something just limited to here. Even within subgroups here there is little tolerance for some differences so it is not just some WASP thing as you like to paint it. It is a universal phenomenon and goes across cultures. How about such people trying to live in China, an Islamic country or any other place and see how these folks fare...not easily I think.

Getting back to the point of this whole thread about the term of "hearing impairment", I can believe there is something such as Deaf culture. But it is predicated on the fact the people who belong to it invariably have a hearing loss which is why they are in it. They feel that is a place where they can be on equal terms with others primarily due to the unique form of communication without spoken words. The issue of feeling a sense of belonging and acceptance is very important to anybody and it is difficult for a deaf person to feel that in normal society. This very fact points out they don't feel equal out in the normal hearing world (not all of them of course but most). Nobody believes that the average person has a "thing" about deaf people or others with different issues and out to do what they can to make them miserable.

People crave conformity across the board and for them dealing with somebody "different" is not easy to do. I think of some of the comments by some here in this forum using the term hearies (almost in a derogratory way) and intolerance toward them if they try to communicate with them especially if they are sincere. Who is being hypocritical here? What goes around comes around... I have been to G college in DC a long time ago when I was a younger man visiting a former teacher (who became an administrator there) I knew when I was a child. I couldn't believe the upturned noses at me because I was not one of them just because I could function as a hearing person with a HA and it was like I was a traitor or something. That left a deep impression about the deaf in my mind for a long time. The bottom line is the fact in the realm of humanity across the entire planet, hearing is a normal attribute and the lack thereof is considered an impairment. Not in the sense lacking equality as human beings but rather lacking in a typical physical ability. I seen too much defensiveness with this whole concept.

I have a hearing loss and it is now to the point I'm totally deaf due to my CI. It is a choice I made and I'm doing very well with it. Still I know the reality is that I have a hearing impairment and *shrugs* why should I care what others think of me. I'm functional and most normal people usually never notice I'm deaf...I'm just stating a fact. I don't run and hide from it but rather I just deal with it each and every day. I grew up in the hearing world and it is not as a bad place some had made it out to be. Yes, you run into clueless and even nasty people sometimes but who amongst us doesn't? It is not limited to the hearing world. I seen enough with the deaf that basically a spade is a spade and people are people the world over.

you have WAY too much time on your hands....

 

[sr171soars]

you have WAY too much time on your hands....

Er...normally I don't but this got my goat a little...

You won't see me do this often.

 

[deafdyke]

This is a even more pathetic argument. What does that have to do with the price of eggs? Do you honestly think any society is going to have an easier time integrating people with impairments? It is not something just limited to here. Even within subgroups here there is little tolerance for some differences so it is not just some WASP thing as you like to paint it. It is a universal phenomenon and goes across cultures. How about such people trying to live in China, an Islamic country or any other place and see how these folks fare...not easily I think.

I never said that it was a WASP thing. That was an EXAMPLE, b/c a WASP type is the MAJORITY in our country!
I am aware that it's a cross cultral thing....but the thing is....that virtually ALL the stuff that we who have disabilties is experianced by other minorites...it is a MINORITY experiance, not nessarily an experiance from not being able to walk/see/hear/talk.

Getting back to the point of this whole thread about the term of "hearing impairment", I can believe there is something such as Deaf culture. But it is predicated on the fact the people who belong to it invariably have a hearing loss which is why they are in it.

Not all people who are Deaf, are deaf or even hard of hearing....there are some unilateral loss folks who ID as Deaf, and there are hearies with other disabilties who ID as Deaf b/c they use ASL/Sign as a primary language!

 

[sr171soars]

I never said that it was a WASP thing. That was an EXAMPLE, b/c a WASP type is the MAJORITY in our country!
I am aware that it's a cross cultral thing....but the thing is....that virtually ALL the stuff that we who have disabilties is experianced by other minorites...it is a MINORITY experiance, not nessarily an experiance from not being able to walk/see/hear/talk.

Not all people who are Deaf, are deaf or even hard of hearing....there are some unilateral loss folks who ID as Deaf, and there are hearies with other disabilties who ID as Deaf b/c they use ASL/Sign as a primary language!

I understand your first point and there is truth to that. However it was in the way you setup your argument that it appeared you were blameshifting the problems. Of course the majority wouldn't understand what we have to deal with and I wouldn't expect them to either. *Sigh* it ain't a perfect world...

I can see your second point on who might belong in the deaf world. Learn something everyday... But my point why there would be a deaf culture/subgroup whatever still stands...

 

[Reba]

Yes I am. Braille is set of marks which are a method of expressing several languages, including English. It is not a language unto itself but instead a writing system which is used to express one on paper.

From dictionary.com:

Braille (n.) - A system of writing and printing for blind or visually impaired people, in which varied arrangements of raised dots representing letters and numerals are identified by touch.

I don't see the word 'language' in there at all. But just to be doubly sure, I've consulted Wikipedia as well.

According to Wikipedia:
"Braille is a tactile writing system used by blind people. It was invented by Louis Braille of France who was blinded in a childhood accident. At the age of 15 he modified a failed military system for reading orders at night without showing any light (night writing), inventing Braille."

Braille is not a language, as multiple languages (English being one of many) can be rendered in it. Any language that uses the latin alphabet (ie English, French, Spanish, Portugese, Finnish, Swedish, German, Norwegian, Polish, Italian, etc.) can be rendered in braille, just as they can be rendered in the latin alphabet. Surely you're not going to allege that the alphabet is a language? It is a collection of symbols, which when combined with numerals and punctuation produce a written means of the rendering of a particular language. Braille is the same, the only difference being that its intent is to be tactile rather than visual.

Same idea for Morse Code, semiphore flags, and ship-to-ship signal lights; all representations of the alphabet but not languages.

 

[Reba]

:bsflag: I would call ASL a forum of english. It does have a different sentence structure and things, however; it is englsh.... hence "american" sign language.

ASL is not English. It is called "American" sign language because it is used by American Deaf people.