Comparing CI with HA's

[Hear Again]

Ah, KrafWerk. I listened to that in the 80's and 90's.
Found some on YouTube.. search there..

Yes, I used to listen to Kraftwerk in the 80's. A friend of mine happens to be a big fan of theirs and she was the one who introduced me to their music. If anyone is interested in hearing a good New Age artist, check them out!

 

[Cloggy]

.........but we don't hear it like hearing people. What we hear is very....not as sophisticated as what a hearing person hears. .........

The obcession with how normal hearing is compared to HA compared to CI....
We don't even know if all normal people hear the same.... And does it really matter? When I listen to music do I hear the same as someone else.???
No matter how Lotte hears, she will pronounce what I say the same way. So, in that way she hears normal. There is no trace of the sound that HOH people sometimes make.

 

[Cloggy]

Hear Again,
Thanks for that info.
It's one thing to see it on a video, one thing to read about it in an article, but it's so much more valuable when it's written down in a messageboard like this.
For the same reason I like to put down here the experiences we have with Lotte.
It's valuable information for members and lurkers...

 

[highlands]

The obcession with how normal hearing is compared to HA compared to CI....
We don't even know if all normal people hear the same.... And does it really matter? When I listen to music do I hear the same as someone else.???
No matter how Lotte hears, she will pronounce what I say the same way. So, in that way she hears normal. There is no trace of the sound that HOH people sometimes make.

Good point ,Cloggy As a hoh person, I agree with your view here. Not all hearing people hear the same and so I cannot expect to hear like a 'standard level' . All I want is to be able to understand speech without getting much frustration. I am currently using HAs and getting 'moderate' benefit (that means I can understand some of speech but not all )... and I am thinking of switching to CI in the future ,perhaps in two years or so.

 

[shel90]

Reading all the posts in this thread and other threads about how CI's work so great and how deaf people can hear speech, listen to music and all that, my question is if it works so great, why do I know many deaf adults and children who have no use of them no matter how much their parents and themselves try? I have students with CI's and I would be standing behind them and I would yell to test them...no responses so if they cant respond to a simple yell, how can they respond to different speech sounds? I am not putting anyone down..just dont understand if CI's are so advanced but still dont work on a large number of deaf children?

 

[highlands]

Reading all the posts in this thread and other threads about how CI's work so great and how deaf people can hear speech, listen to music and all that, my question is if it works so great, why do I know many deaf adults and children who have no use of them no matter how much their parents and themselves try? I have students with CI's and I would be standing behind them and I would yell to test them...no responses so if they cant respond to a simple yell, how can they respond to different speech sounds? I am not putting anyone down..just dont understand if CI's are so advanced but still dont work on a large number of deaf children?

perhaps, their CIs are not programmed properly and CIs might not be an ideal solution for pre lingual (early deafened) people.

 

[shel90]

perhaps, their CIs are not programmed properly and CIs might not be an ideal solution for pre lingual (early deafened) people.

Oh, the audiologists at my work works hard in making sure all the CIs are programmed and she informs the parents or the CI center for remapping and all that...no luck.

 

[highlands]

Oh, the audiologists at my work works hard in making sure all the CIs are programmed and she informs the parents or the CI center for remapping and all that...no luck.

Are the children pre or post lingual ?

 

[shel90]

Are the children pre or post lingual ?

Both..there are about 20 something students with CIs who got transferred to my school in the last 2 years due to not "succeeding" in the oral program. I dont know all of their information. Would be interesting to see if they are post-lingual or pre-lingual.

I guess it really depends on the child cuz both my brother and I were both born with a 120 dB hearing range in both ears, lived in the same household, and went to the same oral program starting at the age of 1. I did well with the oral-only approach and made it thru being mainstreamed all my life (academic-wise) when on the other hand, my brother struggled to learn how to read lips and use his voice..was mainstreamed in kindergarden..had so many problems with communication breakdowns..school called for an IEP meeting and suggested that my brother be referred to the deaf school. My mom agreed..sent him and he just blossomed with ASL. We both had HAs but he kept throwing his away..said they gave him headaches. I relied on them..couldnt handle it if my batteries died. So many people in the deaf community know my brother and when they meet me, they are shocked that I am not fluent in ASL like he is. They ask why we both went to different schools with different approaches. Guess it is hard for a lot of people to believe.

Maybe that is the case with children with CIs...some will benefit from them and some wont.

 

[highlands]

Both..there are about 20 something students with CIs who got transferred to my school in the last 2 years due to not "succeeding" in the oral program. I dont know all of their information. Would be interesting to see if they are post-lingual or pre-lingual.

I guess it really depends on the child cuz both my brother and I were both born with a 120 dB hearing range in both ears, lived in the same household, and went to the same oral program starting at the age of 1. I did well with the oral-only approach and made it thru being mainstreamed all my life (academic-wise) when on the other hand, my brother struggled to learn how to read lips and use his voice..was mainstreamed in kindergarden..had so many problems with communication breakdowns..school called for an IEP meeting and suggested that my brother be referred to the deaf school. My mom agreed..sent him and he just blossomed with ASL. We both had HAs but he kept throwing his away..said they gave him headaches. I relied on them..couldnt handle it if my batteries died. So many people in the deaf community know my brother and when they meet me, they are shocked that I am not fluent in ASL like he is. They ask why we both went to different schools with different approaches. Guess it is hard for a lot of people to believe.

Maybe that is the case with children with CIs...some will benefit from them and some wont.

Maybe.. but the case is out of my knowledge and Boult could reply to your question much better than I do.

hmm.. I am hoh around 90 dbl.. and have to use HAs and rely on lip reading since HAs don't offer me very good speech perception.. as for you an your brother ,of course, everybody has different levels of skills.. this is true for hearing and lip reading ability,too.. I can lip read but I am not very succesful at it.. Yep, many (hearing) people cannot understand these types of differences and they assume we are only one type

 

[shel90]

Maybe.. but the case is out of my knowledge and Boult could reply to your question much better than I do.

hmm.. I am hoh around 90 dbl.. and have to use HAs and rely on lip reading since HAs don't offer me very good speech perception.. as for you an your brother ,of course, everybody has different levels of skills.. this is true for hearing and lip reading ability,too.. I can lip read but I am not very succesful at it.. Yep, many (hearing) people cannot understand these types of differences and they assume we are only one type

I know..it is amazing isnt it? That is why so many hearing people have a hard time believing that I am stone stone stone deaf. LOL! Without my HAs, I hear nothing.. not even a person standing next to me screaming.

 

[Cloggy]

Shel90,
You have a good point there.
Obviously performance differe from place to place, and it is interesting to find out here what the main difference is between the surrounding where you get your experiences and where others get them.
Obviously, you see a lot of them at 1 place.
This made me think:

You mention the students, and with the number you have at that school, I assume it is a school for the deaf.
What is the main background of the parents. Are they hearing / deaf, and how does this relate to the performance of the children with CI.

I have read that having a CI on a school which is culturally Deaf is not favourable. Sign will still be the main mode of communication which slows down learning of speech and ability to hear with the CI.

So, would the backgound of the parents (deaf/hearing) or communication between students (speech/sign) be a factor here..??

 

[Cloggy]

I know..it is amazing isnt it? That is why so many hearing people have a hard time believing that I am stone stone stone deaf. LOL! Without my HAs, I hear nothing.. not even a person standing next to me screaming.

It is amazing sometimes..
My wife did a sign-language course at the University in our town, and after 3 months talked to a fellow-student, who said "You know my background?"
My wife didn't know what she ment and said "NO2.
The woman said that she couldn't hear anything.!! She was stone-deaf (NOT wearing HA's, but in addition did not know sign language too well... she started the course almost from scratch..) and no-one noticed.. LOL

 

[sr171soars]

Shel90,
You have a good point there.
Obviously performance differe from place to place, and it is interesting to find out here what the main difference is between the surrounding where you get your experiences and where others get them.
Obviously, you see a lot of them at 1 place.
This made me think:

You mention the students, and with the number you have at that school, I assume it is a school for the deaf.
What is the main background of the parents. Are they hearing / deaf, and how does this relate to the performance of the children with CI.

I have read that having a CI on a school which is culturally Deaf is not favourable. Sign will still be the main mode of communication which slows down learning of speech and ability to hear with the CI.

So, would the backgound of the parents (deaf/hearing) or communication between students (speech/sign) be a factor here..??

This is an excellent observation and can easily explain a lot of things about what shel90 has seen. The big thing here is that there is very little incentive (if any at all) for the culturally deaf to excel in spoken language. If you do, you often are ostracized and thus end up being a self fulfilling prophesy of failure. For one who is dependent on having people who understand you (in this case ASL oriented)...which way do you think they would go....

 

[deafdyke]

Cloggy, if people with CI hear the same as hearing people, then how come there are these things called MEMs in development that make what a CIer hears "more nautral sounding?"
She has some access to sound, yeah........but I think if you could hear what Lotte hears you'd be like "this is NOT *real* hearing.
I'm not obssessed with this. You simply do not understand that while we have access to sound, it's not AT ALL what a normally hearing person would think of as *hearing*
I can repeat a lot of sounds.....I can even speak French a little! That does not mean I percieve sounds the way a hearing person does.
Is Lotte still in speech therapy? That's actually your answer.....She's probaly a wicked good imitator. Like even with hearing aids I can't hear the difference between t and p (I remember for the LONGEST time I thought my dad's favorite bachelor dish was called Cat's Crap.....it's actually called CaP's Crap. and I had to learn how to pronounce a lot of sounds....like "th" .....and as I recall, one almost universal for dhh is the "s/sh sounds. It really might be that she has a really good speech therapist.
It's like.......the way my friend Kevin who is blind/low vision can see, but even with glasses, he can't see the way a sighted person does.
*hearing* with CI vs normal hearing is probaly like the difference in sound quality between a VERY early antique record (and not talking about '60's.....more like '20's or '30's) and an MP 3. Hey.....even I can tell the difference in sound quality, between those two media.
People can compensate VERY well for defincinces in a sense. I think that's what you really don't understand. Have you heard about the blind folks who can use sound to "see"? There was an article on a boy who can do this so well that he can ride a BIKE, even thou he's legally blind. Lemme see if I can't dig up that article. Hey.....I can have "spoken" conversations without even making a SOUND! (through speechreading)

 

[Cloggy]

Cloggy, if people with CI hear the same as hearing people, then how come there are these things called MEMs in development that make what a CIer hears "more nautral sounding?"
She has some access to sound, yeah........but I think if you could hear what Lotte hears you'd be like "this is NOT *real* hearing.
I'm not obssessed with this. You simply do not understand that while we have access to sound, it's not AT ALL what a normally hearing person would think of as *hearing* ..........
........
It's like.......the way my friend Kevin who is blind/low vision can see, but even with glasses, he can't see the way a sighted person does.

It doesn't matter what she hears, because in the end the pronounciation is there. She can hear it herself.

In that sense your example of your friend Kevin is a good example.
A hearing aid would help him to focus a little but he would still see blurred. But better than without the HA.
With the CI he would see sharp & clear but with tunnel vision. He would see less of the world, but what he sees would be clear...
Perhaps his trees are red, and the sky is green, but when you are used to it, that works as well. And if you ask him, "what color is the sky" he would still answer "blue"...

(BTW.. what are MEM's in development ??)

 

[shel90]

Shel90,
You have a good point there.
Obviously performance differe from place to place, and it is interesting to find out here what the main difference is between the surrounding where you get your experiences and where others get them.
Obviously, you see a lot of them at 1 place.
This made me think:

You mention the students, and with the number you have at that school, I assume it is a school for the deaf.
What is the main background of the parents. Are they hearing / deaf, and how does this relate to the performance of the children with CI.

I have read that having a CI on a school which is culturally Deaf is not favourable. Sign will still be the main mode of communication which slows down learning of speech and ability to hear with the CI.

So, would the backgound of the parents (deaf/hearing) or communication between students (speech/sign) be a factor here..??

Most of the kids that have been referred are middle school aged. They had been mainstreamed all their lives. I asked one teacher why are they being referred to my school and they said many of them did not benefit from the oral programs and now are so behind academically so their parents were desperate. 90% of our students are from hearing parents.

Sign does not slow down the learning of speech and ability to hear with the CI. It seems that their is a belief by the doctors that by learning ASL, the kids with CI would never learn to use their CIs. That was what I was afraid of. We have about 10 kids of the 20 something who missed out a lot in language development due to not being able to figure out speech sounds and the spoken English language. Now, they are having to learn ASL at that age and then once they master ASL, then they have to learn how to bridge English and ASL but by the time they are able to do that, they will be well into their late teens. Already their reading levels are so many years delayed. who suffers? The kids because they will struggle in college and struggle to find good jobs.

Those first 5 years are critical..if the CI works and the child is able to develop a language great! If not, but if the parents or the doctors continue to be stubborn and put the child in an oral only program when the child still hasnt mastered a language yet, that will hurt the child academically years down in the road. That is why I think ASL is so important but to each its own. Some parents have their own reasons for not learning ASL or for wanting their child to learn ASL so I just hope that the child has a strong language foundation by the time he/she is 5 years old. I cant force my opinions on other people.

 

[shel90]

This is an excellent observation and can easily explain a lot of things about what shel90 has seen. The big thing here is that there is very little incentive (if any at all) for the culturally deaf to excel in spoken language. If you do, you often are ostracized and thus end up being a self fulfilling prophesy of failure. For one who is dependent on having people who understand you (in this case ASL oriented)...which way do you think they would go....

Well, my brother tried to learn how to use his voice and read lips but his mind couldnt grasp the concept of spoken language during the first 5 years of his life. He had intensive speech/lipreading therapy daily just like I did. At the time he wasnt involved with the deaf community nor was exposed to ASL so I am happy he got to learn ASL before he became more delayed in language. ASL opened the world for him. I dont think at 5 years old, he was worried about being ostracized. He just wanted to be able to express his thoughts and feelings which he couldnt through spoken language.

My whole point is if the CI or spoken language is not working for the deaf child, expose the child to sign language before the child gets too old and is severly delayed in language development. That is all I care about.

 

[Cloggy]

.........My whole point is if the CI or spoken language is not working for the deaf child, expose the child to sign language before the child gets too old and is severly delayed in language development. That is all I care about.

A good point. And it has been noticed often.
That is one of the reasons that we choose for CI as soon as possible.
We recognised that since communication is the most important thing for the child (like you mentionned - expressing feelings) sign is very important when speech cannot be used.

Research has shown that the best candidates for CI (as in .. benefit the most) are latened deaf people that allready had sound/language in "the brain" and the very young children that have every opportunity to create the synapses in their brains needed for language. Appearently, at age 6 the possibilities have reduced a lot allready.
I often show this picture, from allready a while back...

Newer studies - with more children that were implanted at very early age - show even extremer differences..

So for the students that you have, would it be fair to say they got their CI pre-lingually, and at a later age??

 

[R2D2]

Those first 5 years are critical..if the CI works and the child is able to develop a language great! If not, but if the parents or the doctors continue to be stubborn and put the child in an oral only program when the child still hasnt mastered a language yet, that will hurt the child academically years down in the road. That is why I think ASL is so important but to each its own. Some parents have their own reasons for not learning ASL or for wanting their child to learn ASL so I just hope that the child has a strong language foundation by the time he/she is 5 years old. I cant force my opinions on other people.

Good points Shel. I agree with you. Whether spoken or ASL, getting language for that child in the first few years is very important for development. That's why if I have a deaf child I hope to do both at least in the early years.

I grew up in a mainstream program and while I did well with it I saw other kids at my school that didn't (this was before the days of CIs) and I often wondered why the teachers persisted in teaching them orally when they would have been better off signing.

By the way Shel is there any research out there that shows that signing does not cause delay to the development of spoken language? I would be interested because when I was growing up I can remember people making that argument a lot.