Cochlear Implants for Healthy Deaf Babies and the Hippocratic Oath

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TechBill said:
The thread is about doctor willfully or knowing that they are harming a person or a child implanted with a CI.

Like I said it need to be proven that CI is a harmful device and doctor are willfully knowing that they are harming someone when they implanted them with it.

Do you think there are doctors out there whom doesn't care who get implanted and dies from it?

I know several doctors that have implanted many many children and none of them have ever had a death occur from an implant. And knowing these doctors as I do, I know that they would never ever do implants if they thought one of their patients died from it, I know they would stop implanting children.

All those "Againist CI on Childern" posts or threads like this one is really a waste of time because it only will just stir thing up and goes no where but divide people.

I will say this

I will never ever dare tell another parents what they can or cannot do with their own children. They brought the child into this world and it is their responsibly to raise the child as they see fit.

You are right as a parent if someone came to bash me because I was thinking about implanting by child, I would just trun around walk away from that person forever. No one is going to tell me how to raise my children. When I talk to parents I do not tell them how to raise their child, I give them suggestions but always tell them it is their decision not mine.

We have laws that protect everyone including our own children so if you or anyone think that children should not have a CI implanted in them then you need to go and talk to your senator about getting a law passed preventing implants in children.

The other parents does not tell you what you can or cannot do to your child so they deserve equal respect from you.

99% of the "Againist CI" post I read on the internet is pretty much folks making rash judgement because they do not have the experience themseleves but "heard from others" also sound like a broken record repeating themseleves over and over again going nowhere. It all hearsay.

Be mature and if you truely don't want to see childern implanted then do the right way and get the laws change or pass on this intead of creating a "innocent threads/posts looking but gonna stir thing up". Your not gonna get laws passed by sitting behind monitor making post or thread like this you know.

I have a broken implant right now and was not able to use it for a month that there a good chance that I may have to go back and be re-implanted.

Yes I can die the second time around but I do know one thing. My doctor is going to everything in his power to make sure I don't die from it and if I do happen to die from the second implant then I nor my family will not hold him accountable but they know the doctor wasn't out to harm me when he implant me.


Bill, this is what I see here all the time. They just tell us parents that we are doing wrong. If they really believe that implants are bad and dangerous then they should go be action agents. They should go talk to people that can change things. I am not happy with an implant center that does not do a job of informing parents so what they need to know so what I am doing about this is I am going to talk to that doctor and tell him that I would love to help by being his liason to parents and that I am willing to do this free so that parents have the right informaton.
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FreeThinker said:
Umm, you do have a valid point. I have to admit that it would be difficult to prove that cochlear implant is a harmful device. I think it is about the perception of risks involving cochlear implant surgery. For example, if the medical community determines the risk of having a post-surgery complications of facial paralysis to be one patient out of 100 or whatever number of surgeries. The medical community may perceive it as an acceptable risk just like any other surgeries. But for the ASL-signing Deaf people, they may think that the risk is too great. Facial expressions are a crucial part of the ASL grammar. So if a cochlear implant patient has a facial paralysis and is not as successful as he or she is supposed to be with his or her hearing ability, then he or she would be having a hard time communicating with people who use ASL as a primary language. In an effort to put in a context that would make people without ASL background to understand better, facial expressions are just as important as the vocal intonation to convey the exact meaning of the message being carried out.
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Free thinker I get your point about facial paralysis but do you know how rare that is. They now have montiors to tell the surgeon when they are getting to close to the nerve. Now I know that my children's surgeon had one patient with facial paralysis and that was 20 years ago. Since then he has no patients with facial paralysis.
 
FreeThinker said:
The question of the day: Could surgeons performing the cochlear implant surgery on healthy deaf babies be in violation of the Hippocratic Oath? A modern version of the Hippocratic Oath is shown below and look especially at the bold highlight: I will follow that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous

For some people the idea of having invasive cochlear implant surgery performed on healthy deaf babies is actually harming them; thus, violating the Hippocratic Oath. Babies with cochlear implants may grow up with the perception that they are not accepted as deaf children and need to "fix" a condition perceived as a defective by the hearing/speaking majority. If this idea is offensive to the members of the bilingual Deaf minority, then it might be considered as harmful or mischievous. Members of the bilingual Deaf community often do not view hearing-loss as a disability, but an empowering experience."


Since you start from the premise that cochlear implants are harmful which is not true then your theory fails from the outset. As they are not.

Also, you mention more than once the qualifying term "healthy" babies which implies an inherent bias to your whole line of questioning. Is it your position that cochlear implants should only be performed upon babies who are gravely ill?

No one is questioning the fact that the surgery is elective or that a deaf person can still lead a productive life without a cochlear implant. What those of us who have made the informed decision to select a cochlear implant for either themselves or for their children recognize that we are dealing with a situation wherein HAs provide little or no benefit and that access to sound and if possible spoken language is something that we feel can and will enhance a person's life. Additionally, many realize that said access will be more easily obtained with a ci then without one.

For those who disagree, fine do not choose a ci for either yourself or for your child but recognize that others have a different opinion and a right to that opinion so do not attempt to impose your beliefs and your agenda upon us and our children.
Rick
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rick48 said:
FreeThinker said:
The question of the day: Could surgeons performing the cochlear implant surgery on healthy deaf babies be in violation of the Hippocratic Oath? A modern version of the Hippocratic Oath is shown below and look especially at the bold highlight: I will follow that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous

For some people the idea of having invasive cochlear implant surgery performed on healthy deaf babies is actually harming them; thus, violating the Hippocratic Oath. Babies with cochlear implants may grow up with the perception that they are not accepted as deaf children and need to "fix" a condition perceived as a defective by the hearing/speaking majority. If this idea is offensive to the members of the bilingual Deaf minority, then it might be considered as harmful or mischievous. Members of the bilingual Deaf community often do not view hearing-loss as a disability, but an empowering experience."


Since you start from the premise that cochlear implants are harmful which is not true then your theory fails from the outset. As they are not.

Also, you mention more than once the qualifying term "healthy" babies which implies an inherent bias to your whole line of questioning. Is it your position that cochlear implants should only be performed upon babies who are gravely ill?

No one is questioning the fact that the surgery is elective or that a deaf person can still lead a productive life without a cochlear implant. What those of us who have made the informed decision to select a cochlear implant for either themselves or for their children recognize that we are dealing with a situation wherein HAs provide little or no benefit and that access to sound and if possible spoken language is something that we feel can and will enhance a person's life. Additionally, many realize that said access will be more easily obtained with a ci then without one.

For those who disagree, fine do not choose a ci for either yourself or for your child but recognize that others have a different opinion and a right to that opinion so do not attempt to impose your beliefs and your agenda upon us and our children.
Rick
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Thanks Rick couldn't have said it better. :bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:
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rick48 said:
Since you start from the premise that cochlear implants are harmful which is not true then your theory fails from the outset. As they are not.

Also, you mention more than once the qualifying term "healthy" babies which implies an inherent bias to your whole line of questioning. Is it your position that cochlear implants should only be performed upon babies who are gravely ill?

No one is questioning the fact that the surgery is elective or that a deaf person can still lead a productive life without a cochlear implant. What those of us who have made the informed decision to select a cochlear implant for either themselves or for their children recognize that we are dealing with a situation wherein HAs provide little or no benefit and that access to sound and if possible spoken language is something that we feel can and will enhance a person's life. Additionally, many realize that said access will be more easily obtained with a ci then without one.

For those who disagree, fine do not choose a ci for either yourself or for your child but recognize that others have a different opinion and a right to that opinion so do not attempt to impose your beliefs and your agenda upon us and our children.
Rick
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Smile, I knew someone would say that! I was saying healthy deaf babies in the context of "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it." You are right that a deaf person can lead still lead a productive life without a cochlear implant. But, I still think that a deaf person with a cochlear implant can still lead a productive life. However, will this person feel complete with his or her life? Comfortable with his or her own identity? I am just saying to look at this from different perspectives. I do support people making informed decisions regarding CI for themselves or their children, but make sure the information they are getting are honest, realistic, fair and unbiased. We can agree to disagree, but dont let this situation get out of hand!
 
FreeThinker said:
Smile, I knew someone would say that! I was saying healthy deaf babies in the context of "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it." You are right that a deaf person can lead still lead a productive life without a cochlear implant. But, I still think that a deaf person with a cochlear implant can still lead a productive life. However, will this person feel complete with his or her life? Comfortable with his or her own identity? I am just saying to look at this from different perspectives. I do support people making informed decisions regarding CI for themselves or their children, but make sure the information they are getting are honest, realistic, fair and unbiased. We can agree to disagree, but dont let this situation get out of hand!
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As the parent of a new adult ci user I can tell you that her ci does not define her nor does her deafness. Who she is and how she identifies herself is so much more complex then to isolate it to one aspect of her total personality.

Not sure what you mean by your "if it ain't broke..." statement. Do you believe that deaf people should not attempt to speak or to understand spoken languge at all? Do you believe that the deaf should not attempt to take advantage of the technology that presently exists or just cochlear implants?
Rick
 
orginally posted by FreeThinker

I won't lobby my Senators and House members about getting a law passed prohibiting implants in children. But I would lobby the medical community to ensure each child would be given full exposure to both English and ASL. Alexander Graham Bell Association for the Deaf advocates auditory-verbal therapy which involves no visual input. When a child is born, there is a crucial language acquisition period and want to take full advantage of this period by using the two pathways (ears and eyes). The baby's brain is prewired for lanuage and waiting for input (by either auditory or visual or both). What gets me mad is what if the child is not as successful as he or she is supposed to under the auditory-verbal therapy. This child does not have any back up plan and gets behind in his or her language development. We can remedy this problem by ensuring that each Deaf baby is exposed to two language. There is no evidence that learning two languages would slow down child's language acquistion. In fact, it would give the child greater cognitive flexiblily when he or she uses two or more languages. When this child grows up, he or she can choose one of languages to be his or her primary language.
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Freethinker -Re: the bolded portion: How do you propose to do this? What is your recipe for success?
 
The concept of "Do no harm" in the Hippocratic oath is an ethical principle that is guided not just by the concept of intentional harm, but of unintentional harm, as well. Practitioners have been found guilty of violation of nonmaleficence for practices such as stepping out of scope of practice. A physician who prescribes off label may have the intent of beneficence. However, if his/her patient experiences complications as a result, the principle of nonmaleficence has been violated. Performing a procedure on a population for whom it has not been approved would leave a physician open to charges of ethical violation under the principle of "First, do no harm."
 
FreeThinker said:
Smile, I knew someone would say that! I was saying healthy deaf babies in the context of "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it." You are right that a deaf person can lead still lead a productive life without a cochlear implant. But, I still think that a deaf person with a cochlear implant can still lead a productive life. However, will this person feel complete with his or her life? Comfortable with his or her own identity? I am just saying to look at this from different perspectives. I do support people making informed decisions regarding CI for themselves or their children, but make sure the information they are getting are honest, realistic, fair and unbiased. We can agree to disagree, but dont let this situation get out of hand!
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Fair enough! :) I too think it's good for everyone to consider those thoughts and educate themselves.
 
From my perespective the oralism from children. Your goal is to help parents understand ASL better and help them make better decision by having whole information.

Perhaps the schools can set up a committee to focus on sending out to all Infant Hearing Programs positive message about ASL and about working with them to improve quality of life for all Deaf and hard of hearing children. It has been doing to do our best to make this world a better place for Deaf babies to prevent to receving the cochlear implants at such younger ages (6 to 12 months). Parents really need to receive some more careful education before they make the decision for their Deaf children.

Make sure all Deaf babies are exposed to ASL but if parents decide they want their babies to have Cochlear Implant and speech, then we need to try to advocate that ASL is also a good addition to their their Deaf childred.
 
loml said:
orginally posted by FreeThinker



Freethinker -Re: the bolded portion: How do you propose to do this? What is your recipe for success?
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Very simple - Think globally, act locally - become a member of state and local Deaf associations affiliated with National Association of the Deaf. Getting involved in events organized by state and local Deaf assoications. Have the administrators of Deaf blingual schools collorabrate with area hospitals - letting the medical professionals know who are are. Checking for updates from Deaf Bilingual Coalition - a newly formed organization fighting for linguistic rights for the minority. Deaf Bilingual Coalition organizes rallies at various organizations who do not support dual language model for deaf babies/children. I try to keep up with latest research/trends/issues of Deaf bilingual education. And most important we need support from hearing allies to spread the word.

I have to admit that we are like a dot on the whiteboard. We have alot to educate the public about the benefits of dual language model. We will be smashed often on our attempt to educate the general public, just as the Black people have suffered with their fight for their civil rights. We do have a dream, too!
 
loml said:
orginally posted by FreeThinker



Freethinker -Re: the bolded portion: How do you propose to do this? What is your recipe for success?
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Another recipe for success is highlighted in bold here. That is something to think about when considering options for Deaf babies. For your information Source:Berke Outspoken: How Are Schools for the Deaf Doing? Let's Find Out.



No Child Left Behind has been around for awhile now, so I figured there had to be public sources of data on test scores. I headed to GreatSchools.net, and plugged "deaf" into the search engine on a state by state basis. I found test score data for several deaf schools, although many schools did not have any data. Test scores were listed as percentages.

Based on what I found, it looks like the best-performing school for the deaf based on the currently available statistics at GreatSchools.net is....wave hands...the Kansas School for the Deaf! How well did they do?

Grade 11
In 2007, a whopping 77% met or exceeded standards for Reading. This was equal to the state average.
In 2007, an outstanding 88% met or exceeded standards for Writing. This was actually BETTER than the state average, which was only 76%. Imagine that..deaf students writing better than hearing students!
In 2007, an incredible 100% met or exceeded standards for Math. Again, this was better than the state average, which was only 71%!

What type of education does KSD offer? According to their site:

"Bilingual instruction, which builds on the strengths of a fluent, visual language [American Sign Language] to develop fluency in a second, written language [English]."

Parents, don't rush to move to Kansas to enroll your hearing kids in this school. As far as I can tell from the KSD website, only deaf children can enroll.

On the list, there are alot of schools for the deaf that did not do well on test scores. We could learn something from Kansas School for the Deaf. Maryland School for the Deaf did well on the test scores too. Due to its proxmity to Gallaudet University (the only liberal arts college for the Deaf in the world), the majority of Maryland School for the Deaf students have at least one Deaf parent.
 
FreeThinker said:
Another recipe for success is highlighted in bold here. That is something to think about when considering options for Deaf babies. For your information Source:Berke Outspoken: How Are Schools for the Deaf Doing? Let's Find Out.



No Child Left Behind has been around for awhile now, so I figured there had to be public sources of data on test scores. I headed to GreatSchools.net, and plugged "deaf" into the search engine on a state by state basis. I found test score data for several deaf schools, although many schools did not have any data. Test scores were listed as percentages.

Based on what I found, it looks like the best-performing school for the deaf based on the currently available statistics at GreatSchools.net is....wave hands...the Kansas School for the Deaf! How well did they do?

Grade 11
In 2007, a whopping 77% met or exceeded standards for Reading. This was equal to the state average.
In 2007, an outstanding 88% met or exceeded standards for Writing. This was actually BETTER than the state average, which was only 76%. Imagine that..deaf students writing better than hearing students!
In 2007, an incredible 100% met or exceeded standards for Math. Again, this was better than the state average, which was only 71%!

What type of education does KSD offer? According to their site:

"Bilingual instruction, which builds on the strengths of a fluent, visual language [American Sign Language] to develop fluency in a second, written language [English]."

Parents, don't rush to move to Kansas to enroll your hearing kids in this school. As far as I can tell from the KSD website, only deaf children can enroll.

On the list, there are alot of schools for the deaf that did not do well on test scores. We could learn something from Kansas School for the Deaf. Maryland School for the Deaf did well on the test scores too. Due to its proxmity to Gallaudet University (the only liberal arts college for the Deaf in the world), the majority of Maryland School for the Deaf students have at least one Deaf parent.
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How did The Learning Center for the Deaf in Mass do? I am using my pager so I cant access to the link you provided.

That's great about KSD! :)
 
FreeThinker said:
Very simple - Think globally, act locally - become a member of state and local Deaf associations affiliated with National Association of the Deaf. Getting involved in events organized by state and local Deaf assoications. Have the administrators of Deaf blingual schools collorabrate with area hospitals - letting the medical professionals know who are are. Checking for updates from Deaf Bilingual Coalition - a newly formed organization fighting for linguistic rights for the minority. Deaf Bilingual Coalition organizes rallies at various organizations who do not support dual language model for deaf babies/children. I try to keep up with latest research/trends/issues of Deaf bilingual education. And most important we need support from hearing allies to spread the word.

I have to admit that we are like a dot on the whiteboard. We have alot to educate the public about the benefits of dual language model. We will be smashed often on our attempt to educate the general public, just as the Black people have suffered with their fight for their civil rights. We do have a dream, too!
Click to expand...


Can anyone get involved with the Bilingual Coalition? I would be interested in being involved.
 
FreeThinker said:
Another recipe for success is highlighted in bold here. That is something to think about when considering options for Deaf babies. For your information Source:Berke Outspoken: How Are Schools for the Deaf Doing? Let's Find Out.



No Child Left Behind has been around for awhile now, so I figured there had to be public sources of data on test scores. I headed to GreatSchools.net, and plugged "deaf" into the search engine on a state by state basis. I found test score data for several deaf schools, although many schools did not have any data. Test scores were listed as percentages.

Based on what I found, it looks like the best-performing school for the deaf based on the currently available statistics at GreatSchools.net is....wave hands...the Kansas School for the Deaf! How well did they do?

Grade 11
In 2007, a whopping 77% met or exceeded standards for Reading. This was equal to the state average.
In 2007, an outstanding 88% met or exceeded standards for Writing. This was actually BETTER than the state average, which was only 76%. Imagine that..deaf students writing better than hearing students!
In 2007, an incredible 100% met or exceeded standards for Math. Again, this was better than the state average, which was only 71%!

What type of education does KSD offer? According to their site:

"Bilingual instruction, which builds on the strengths of a fluent, visual language [American Sign Language] to develop fluency in a second, written language [English]."

Parents, don't rush to move to Kansas to enroll your hearing kids in this school. As far as I can tell from the KSD website, only deaf children can enroll.

On the list, there are alot of schools for the deaf that did not do well on test scores. We could learn something from Kansas School for the Deaf. Maryland School for the Deaf did well on the test scores too. Due to its proxmity to Gallaudet University (the only liberal arts college for the Deaf in the world), the majority of Maryland School for the Deaf students have at least one Deaf parent.
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Jamie Berke just had cochlear implant surgery.

Someone else posted that somewhere on here before.
 
vallee said:
Jamie Berke just had cochlear implant surgery.

Someone else posted that somewhere on here before.
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Sorry for the repost! I am a fairly new to all.deaf.com. It does not matter if one has CI or can speak or cannot speak. Any one with hearing loss, even those with CI, are very welcome to attend any Deaf bilingual schools. It is a common misperception that Deaf bilingual schools do not allow children to speak. Speech therapy is still part of the big picture at schools that embraces Deaf bilingual education philosophy. It just that some Deaf militants with radical ideas are driving away potential hearing allies to work together side by side on educational issues for Deaf students. I am in favor for non-exculsive provisions for all Deaf babies/children so that nothing is excluded from their educational plans.
 
FreeThinker said:
Sorry for the repost! I am a fairly new to all.deaf.com. It does not matter if one has CI or can speak or cannot speak. Any one with hearing loss, even those with CI, are very welcome to attend any Deaf bilingual schools. It is a common misperception that Deaf bilingual schools do not allow children to speak. Speech therapy is still part of the big picture at schools that embraces Deaf bilingual education philosophy. It just that some Deaf militants with radical ideas are driving away potential hearing allies to work together side by side on educational issues for Deaf students. I am in favor for non-exculsive provisions for all Deaf babies/children so that nothing is excluded from their educational plans.
Click to expand...

I agree...it seems like many people have mistaken me as refusing to the idea of providing speech therapy in the program where I work at. I support it as long as the kids get ASL too for full access to language rather than partial.
 
FreeThinker said:
Another recipe for success is highlighted in bold here. That is something to think about when considering options for Deaf babies. For your information Source:Berke Outspoken: How Are Schools for the Deaf Doing? Let's Find Out.



No Child Left Behind has been around for awhile now, so I figured there had to be public sources of data on test scores. I headed to GreatSchools.net, and plugged "deaf" into the search engine on a state by state basis. I found test score data for several deaf schools, although many schools did not have any data. Test scores were listed as percentages.

Based on what I found, it looks like the best-performing school for the deaf based on the currently available statistics at GreatSchools.net is....wave hands...the Kansas School for the Deaf! How well did they do?

Grade 11
In 2007, a whopping 77% met or exceeded standards for Reading. This was equal to the state average.
In 2007, an outstanding 88% met or exceeded standards for Writing. This was actually BETTER than the state average, which was only 76%. Imagine that..deaf students writing better than hearing students!
In 2007, an incredible 100% met or exceeded standards for Math. Again, this was better than the state average, which was only 71%!

What type of education does KSD offer? According to their site:

"Bilingual instruction, which builds on the strengths of a fluent, visual language [American Sign Language] to develop fluency in a second, written language [English]."

Parents, don't rush to move to Kansas to enroll your hearing kids in this school. As far as I can tell from the KSD website, only deaf children can enroll.

On the list, there are alot of schools for the deaf that did not do well on test scores. We could learn something from Kansas School for the Deaf. Maryland School for the Deaf did well on the test scores too. Due to its proxmity to Gallaudet University (the only liberal arts college for the Deaf in the world), the majority of Maryland School for the Deaf students have at least one Deaf parent.
Click to expand...

:gpost:
 
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