Christins actually worshipping a WHAT??!

[lumbingmi]

I am sorry I not accepted what you said Catholic and Christianity share, live, preach FROM THE SAME BIBLE. You didn't research history and compare different Bible. I not agreed this!!!!

Huh? Are you telling me that catholic use different version of bible and it is not same one that your group re using to this day?

wow..... i guess while we re at it, we should tell deaf churches to throw their ASL version of bible out of window because it is not SAME BIBLE that christians are using in this era.

 

[mecooncat]

Thank you.

Sorry, I couldn't click open the first one.

The second one shows the earliest image was around AD 375. That's over 300 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. That means, the artist never actually saw Jesus. That, and all images of Jesus, are just artists' conceptions of what He might have looked like. They are interesting but not for worship.

I agree. We meant what does he looks like during his time not 300 yrs later.

 

[EagleCherokee63]

Huh? Are you telling me that catholic use different version of bible and it is not same one that your group re using to this day?

wow..... i guess while we re at it, we should tell deaf churches to throw their ASL version of bible out of window because it is not SAME BIBLE that christians are using in this era.

I didn't say that you will throw ASL version of Bible but You read it be carefully that's all. I understand that sometime Deaf people not understand read KJV so can use ASL version of Bible. I have one deaf english Bible name is English Version for the Deaf. Most of time I use KJV and sometime look EVD.

I mean my point Catholic's different Bible. I will show you tonight, Thank you for patient with me.

 

[lumbingmi]

I didn't say that you will throw ASL version of Bible but You read it be carefully that's all. I understand that sometime Deaf people not understand read KJV so can use ASL version of Bible. I have one deaf english Bible name is English Version for the Deaf. Most of time I use KJV and sometime look EVD.

I mean my point Catholic's different Bible. I will show you tonight, Thank you for patient with me.

Fine. Amuse me

 

[mecooncat]

I gotta tell you this. Couple of years ago, my SIL was staying with us and she's been having a problem with hearing voices. Ok? So, one day, she asked me to take her to the church. I believe it's United Christ of Church ( I can't remember). Anyway, I was there with her and listening to her talking to the pastor. She told her that she wanted to be baptized as soon as she can because she "thinks" it will get rid of the evil things that's been talking in her head. I've tried to explain it to her that she need to to go physicarist (sp?) In few days later, she finally went to see the doctor. She had to take medications for the rest of her life. Did she get baptized? Yes,she did and you know what she said to me? She told me that now she can go to heaven. I feel sorry for her. Her brother and I have tried to explain it her that baptized doesn't mean that you are going to heaven. She has to repent and ask forgiveness. She never did. I can't force her. It's her way. She moved back to Arizona.

 

[missLsej]

Special, yes, but still a human sinner like everyone else.

Yes, I have read the story of the wedding feast at Cana. Mary was acting as a human mother. As you can see by Jesus' response to her, she didn't have a full understanding of His mission and timing. She had faults, just like every mother does.

But Jesus still chose to obey his Mother. No one but Jesus had a full understanding of His mission. Not today either. So don't tell me that Jesus did it because his time had come, because he said it hadn't. He did do the miracle because Mary asked him to.

If you believe what you say, then why do you worship her?

After Mary died, she had no communication with anyone on earth again. If you mean that her example in Scriptures can lead people to Jesus, then OK. If you mean she has led people to Jesus after her death, thru prayer, then NO, that is incorrect.

I can't say it enough. Catholics don't WORSHIP Mary. Mary IS NOT GOD. I know that, you know that.

How do you do that? They are dead. You can't "ask" them to do anything for you.

Yes. But I don't communicate with the dead ones.

You can think about him, no problem. But you can't talk to him or ask his help because he's dead, and because you should be praying to Jesus instead. It is wrong to pray to anyone other than our Lord.

If you want him for a role model (good example) that's fine. But it is wrong to pray to him.

The belief about having the Saints to talk to comes out of the books of Maccabbees (Apocrypha for you), and the story of the poor man Lazarus and the Rich man. (Not the Lazarus that Jesus raised - another story). Find Luke 16:19-31

This story tells us that the Jews at the time believed that people COULD come back from the dead to talk to the living, yes I know the story says that God did not send anyone to talk to the living. BUT the possibility is there. In this story they weren't sent because the living WOULD NOT believe them.

Incense represented the presence of the Holy Spirit. Christians have the Holy Spirit within them, so they don't need to use incense for spiritual reasons any more.

Before the concept of Holy Spirit, incense represent prayers to God. It still represents that now. I know it is not necessary, it is a "creature comfort". So you don't like the ceremony of the Catholic Church? I like it, I think it is beautiful.

Animal sacrifice is over. Jesus was the final sacrifice. It is finished!

I know that, I just mean that it's a tradition that we pull from.

Then why cross yourself in front of a statue of Mary or a saint? That's not Jesus.

Because we always remember that we pray to God. We start and end with God always. I cross myself everytime I pray, no matter where I am.

Has each and every Catholic person individually and consciously repented his/her sins, and accepted the shed blood of Jesus Christ as the One and Only one-time permanent way to salvation, with no works or ceremonies added? Has each Catholic revealed that to you?

Not to me personally, but there are so many! I just don't have the time to see everyone. Has every person claiming to be Christian revealed it to you?

I would never say that every Baptist is a Christian. I don't know the hearts of every Baptist. Only God knows. Also, I know many, many people who are NOT Baptists are fully born-again Christians.

I guess not.

You might considered that as "born again" but that's not what Jesus calls it. Baptism cannot and does not save anyone, ever. People can be saved without baptism. Baptism shows public obedience to God, AFTER salvation, not before. A person must be saved first, and then baptized.

If people MUST be saved first and then Baptised, how do you explain Christ getting Baptised? He didn't need it FOR SURE!

Also, how do you know I don't do public service for God? Plus when I talk about "Confirmed" that means that I accepted for myself the Baptism my parents gave me as a baby. I don't need to be re-baptised. Why try washing something that isn't there? (I'm talking about Original Sin which is cleansed at Baptism)

Christians are supposed to focus on the words and messages of Jesus, not His supposed physical image.

So we use the image to help us focus? What's the problem? If we don't need anything to remind us, why do many Christians wear a cross?

Also, may I remind you that even after Jesus rose from the dead he still bore the marks of his Crucifixion? That tells me that his death on the cross is still very much important. Plus his ressurection can't happen without his death. I'd say that makes remembering his Passion just as important as his resurrection.

And images are many times more powerful reminders than words. After all "a picture is worth a thousand words".

If you agree that is it is wrong to worship images and relics, then why do you and other Catholics do it?

Sigh, Have you not read my posts? WE DO NOT WORSHIP THESE THINGS. Do you worship the autograph of Marlee Matlin? Or the shoes worn by Judy Garland in the Wizard of Oz? I don't, but if I had them I'd think they were pretty special (especially the autograph ).

So you mean living people? That's fine for you to ask living people to pray for you and with you. You can't ask dead people to do that. Christians aren't even supposed to try to communicate with the dead.

This goes back to Maccabees. All I want to add is that I would think that I'd want to do more for people left behind than sit around. I can pray for people here and I don't think that will stop when I get to Heaven.

Respect for whom? A statue?

Revelation 22
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

What do you think the Saints did? They worshipped God, we want to follow their example so we remind ourselves of these things by asking for their prayers. I don't know if the Saints actually would answer or not. I've never been through Death.

But if you want I will say it this way: Praying WITH the Saints is a way for us to remember HOW to live for God. I want to be like Saint Andrew - So I say "help me Saint Andrew to do as you did". If nothing else by doing that I remember what Saint Andrew did and I try to do the same!!!

His body and blood are no longer here on earth. If you believe they are, then you deny the resurrection.

I don't deny it at all. But we can go back to Saint Paul for a further explanaiton:

1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

That tells me that PAUL, who was only one generation behind the Apostles (and knew Peter) believed that the bread and wine WERE and ARE the body of Christ. (unless they had a mouldy piece left over from Jesus' original?)

I understand what you say. It is wrong but I understand it.

I Corinthians 11
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

The word "shew" means to represent. Partaking in the Lord's Supper is to show His death until He comes again. It is not to do the Lord's death again. It is finished.

At the original Passover supper with Jesus, it was He Himself who broke the bread and passed the cup. He could say it was His body and blood. It is only humans who pass the bread and cup now, and they can't make that same claim because it is not within their authority.

Did you know that the exact same Passover meal is repeated to this day by the Jewish people? They don't believe the Messiah has come.

Did you also know that the breaking of the bread was not something Jesus made up himself but comes from the Seder itself and was practiced LONG before Jesus was born on earth?

The Afikommen bread ("Messiah" bread) is the bread that Jesus broke. Are you going to try and tell all the Jewish people out there to stop their Seder meals because Jesus used it to share his body? He used that bread for a reason, the Seder meals already broke that bread in hope of the Messiah coming.

Matthew 26:26
And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mark 14:22
And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

And something to backup why Catholics believe we still have the Body and Blood of Christ on Earth:

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[missLsej]

I didn't say that you will throw ASL version of Bible but You read it be carefully that's all. I understand that sometime Deaf people not understand read KJV so can use ASL version of Bible. I have one deaf english Bible name is English Version for the Deaf. Most of time I use KJV and sometime look EVD.

I mean my point Catholic's different Bible. I will show you tonight, Thank you for patient with me.

I think you must be thinking about the Apocryphal texts.

These Books of the Bible are from the Jewish Tradition. No the KJV doesn't have them, but if you look at the New Testament, we share ALL THE SAME books.

Plus I know that there are ASL versions of the bible that have DIFFERENT Translations. :jaw:
Wowowow, different translations of the Bible in ASL!!!! Even Deafies are human and can have different opinions.

 

[missLsej]

Thank you.

Sorry, I couldn't click open the first one.

The second one shows the earliest image was around AD 375. That's over 300 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. That means, the artist never actually saw Jesus. That, and all images of Jesus, are just artists' conceptions of what He might have looked like. They are interesting but not for worship.

Images of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That should work. And I have no doubt that the images we have won't be from Jesus' time because up until 313 AD Christianity was still outlawed. The best image they could have that wouldn't be destroyed outright was the fish!

 

[missLsej]

Here's the topic of Christianity vs. Catholic:


Christianity vs. Catholic - Christian Forums

Thank you for that mecooncat. I like that link.

Are Catholics Christian? 10 Biblical Proofs That they are NOT

I will adress this when I am not so tired. Long day and I want to give it my full attention.

Archaeology Validates the Bible!

And so it should! If it didn't we'd all be in a LOT of trouble!!!

 

[Reba]

Images of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That should work. And I have no doubt that the images we have won't be from Jesus' time because up until 313 AD Christianity was still outlawed. The best image they could have that wouldn't be destroyed outright was the fish!

Thank you. It worked this time.

 

[Reba]

But Jesus still chose to obey his Mother. No one but Jesus had a full understanding of His mission. Not today either. So don't tell me that Jesus did it because his time had come, because he said it hadn't. He did do the miracle because Mary asked him to.

As an obedient earthly son, not as God reigning in Heaven.

I can't say it enough. Catholics don't WORSHIP Mary. Mary IS NOT GOD. I know that, you know that.

So no Catholics ever bow before Mary's image, pray to her, say the Rosary, or light candles to her? And the nuns no longer teach the kids at Catholic school that if Jesus won't let them into Heaven, Mary will open the back door and let them sneak in? Mary is no longer the Immaculate Conception who ascended to Heaven without experiencing death? Catholics now ignore the edict from Pope John Paul II encouraging the veneration of Mary? What about this:

In this process of being conformed to Christ in the Rosary, we entrust ourselves in a special way to the maternal care of the Blessed Virgin. She who is both the Mother of Christ and a member of the Church, indeed her “pre-eminent and altogether singular member”,(19) is at the same time the “Mother of the Church”. As such, she continually brings to birth children for the mystical Body of her Son. She does so through her intercession, imploring upon them the inexhaustible outpouring of the Spirit. Mary is the perfect icon of the motherhood of the Church.

...The supreme poet Dante expresses it marvellously in the lines sung by Saint Bernard: “Lady, thou art so great and so powerful, that whoever desires grace yet does not turn to thee, would have his desire fly without wings”.(26) When in the Rosary we plead with Mary, the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit (cf. Lk 1:35), she intercedes for us before the Father who filled her with grace and before the Son born of her womb, praying with us and for us.
Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae

The belief about having the Saints to talk to comes out of the books of Maccabbees (Apocrypha for you)...

Yes, I know about Maccabbees. That is not part of recognized canon of Scripture.

... and the story of the poor man Lazarus and the Rich man. (Not the Lazarus that Jesus raised - another story). Find Luke 16:19-31

Yes, I know which Lazarus. If you notice in that story, living people on earth did NOT pray to any dead saints in Heaven.

This story tells us that the Jews at the time believed that people COULD come back from the dead to talk to the living, yes I know the story says that God did not send anyone to talk to the living. BUT the possibility is there. In this story they weren't sent because the living WOULD NOT believe them.

Some of the Jews might have believed that but that's not the way God did things--they believed in error. There is nothing in the Bible that says it's OK to pray to anyone other than God. There is nothing in the Bible that says it's OK to "talk" to dead people.

Before the concept of Holy Spirit, incense represent prayers to God. It still represents that now. I know it is not necessary, it is a "creature comfort". So you don't like the ceremony of the Catholic Church? I like it, I think it is beautiful.

I'm referring specifically to lighting candles to hasten souls out of Purgatory and into Heaven, and for praying to Mary and saints. I'm not talking about lighting candles for mood or ambiance.

Because we always remember that we pray to God. We start and end with God always. I cross myself everytime I pray, no matter where I am.

"Start and end with God"--so to whom are you praying in between?

You never pray to Mary or saints?

Not to me personally, but there are so many! I just don't have the time to see everyone.

So how can you make such a blanket statement about all Catholics?

Has every person claiming to be Christian revealed it to you?

No. That's why I don't make such blanket statements.

If people MUST be saved first and then Baptised, how do you explain Christ getting Baptised? He didn't need it FOR SURE!

Jesus Christ wasn't baptized for the reason of salvation or church membership. He was sinless, so He didn't need to be saved first; He had no sins from which to be saved. Even John the Baptist recognized that. That's why he hesitated at first to baptise Jesus. Jesus insisted on begin baptised as a public example for the rest of us. All of us human sinners need to be saved first because we aren't sinless like Jesus. After we are saved, we are positionally sinless, and therefor are ready to be baptized in the manner of Jesus.

Also, how do you know I don't do public service for God?

I never said that.

Plus when I talk about "Confirmed" that means that I accepted for myself the Baptism my parents gave me as a baby.

One person making a baptism decision and action for another is worthless. Each person, within his or her own heart, must make that decision, and it can only be made after salvation, which is also a personal decision.

I don't need to be re-baptised. Why try washing something that isn't there? (I'm talking about Original Sin which is cleansed at Baptism)

Baptism doesn't wash away sins. The sins are forgiven only thru personal repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Savior. Baptizing an unsaved person only makes them wet.

How come John the Baptist didn't baptize any babies?

 

[Reba]

...Sigh, Have you not read my posts? WE DO NOT WORSHIP THESE THINGS. Do you worship the autograph of Marlee Matlin? Or the shoes worn by Judy Garland in the Wizard of Oz? I don't, but if I had them I'd think they were pretty special (especially the autograph ).

No, I'm not interested in those things. But even the most precious of material things that I could have, I would NOT bow down before it and pray to it, nor the person it represents.

This goes back to Maccabees. All I want to add is that I would think that I'd want to do more for people left behind than sit around. I can pray for people here and I don't think that will stop when I get to Heaven.

No one in Heaven just "sits around" but neither do they receive prayers from people still living on earth. Prayer can be directed only to God, not thru anyone else.

What do you think the Saints did? They worshipped God, we want to follow their example so we remind ourselves of these things by asking for their prayers. I don't know if the Saints actually would answer or not. I've never been through Death.

If you truly want to follow the example of saints who have gone on before us, you would pray to and worship God the same way they did. They didn't pray to other people. They didn't pray to Moses and Abraham. They prayed to God only.

When Jesus gave us His examples of prayer, He never mentioned praying to other people.

But if you want I will say it this way: Praying WITH the Saints is a way for us to remember HOW to live for God. I want to be like Saint Andrew - So I say "help me Saint Andrew to do as you did". If nothing else by doing that I remember what Saint Andrew did and I try to do the same!!!

How can you pray WITH a dead person? How can you speak to a dead person? Why would you? Jesus wants you to turn to Him. A Christian's goal is to become Christlike.

I don't deny it at all. But we can go back to Saint Paul for a further explanaiton:

1 Corinthians 10
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Paul also wrote that "we being many are one bread, and one body;" does that mean we are also eating each others' body too?

Of course not.

Christians are supposed to partake in the Lord's Supper "in remembrance" of Him, not to reenact Christ's sacrifice. The bread and cup are not holy; only He is holy.

That tells me that PAUL, who was only one generation behind the Apostles (and knew Peter) believed that the bread and wine WERE and ARE the body of Christ. (unless they had a mouldy piece left over from Jesus' original?)

More importantly, Paul met and knew the resurrected Christ. Peter was just another apostle.

Paul did not say that he believed that the bread and wine were actually the body of Christ.

I'm beginning to wonder why so much of your emphasis is on the necessity for depending on material things in order to focus on and remember Christ? (Images, candles, Rosary beads, Eucharist, crucifix, "saints", Mary, etc.)

Did you know that the exact same Passover meal is repeated to this day by the Jewish people? They don't believe the Messiah has come.

Yes, I know about Passover.

Did you also know that the breaking of the bread was not something Jesus made up himself but comes from the Seder itself and was practiced LONG before Jesus was born on earth?

Again, yes. The Passover Seder pictured the coming Christ.

The Afikommen bread ("Messiah" bread) is the bread that Jesus broke. Are you going to try and tell all the Jewish people out there to stop their Seder meals because Jesus used it to share his body? He used that bread for a reason, the Seder meals already broke that bread in hope of the Messiah coming.

I'm not telling the Jews how to perform their rituals because they aren't making claim of being Christians. Since they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, why should they stop following their religion? It certainly doesn't make any sense to tell non-Christians that they should use Christian rituals. There is no spiritual value in non-believers being forced to follow believers' sacraments. In fact, that would be blasphemous. A Christian can't partake in the Lord's Supper until after believers' baptism, which happens after salvation. The Lord's Supper is for Christian believers only.

And something to backup why Catholics believe we still have the Body and Blood of Christ on Earth:

Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matthew 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

What do those verses have to do with Christ's body and blood? I don't see them mentioned in those verses.

The body of Christ on earth is His church, the body of believers.

The blood of Christ is sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven, forever cleansing our sins.

 

[missLsej]

No, I'm not interested in those things. But even the most precious of material things that I could have, I would NOT bow down before it and pray to it, nor the person it represents.

I say again, the statues and the icons and the other things are there not so that we pray to them (statues or people) NONONONO.

I ask you, think about something you really like here on Earth. Suppose you have that in your room (let's say teddy bear). Suppose you kneel beside your bed and your teddy is on the bed same time. I can argue then that you are praying TO your teddy bear.

Are you praying to your teddy? No, how silly. But should I tell you not to pray beside your bed with your teddy there because I think you are praying to your teddy? No, because I don't know what your prayer is. I don't claim to know what goes through every persons head during prayer, I just know that Catholic Canon Law tells us that the Saints can gain intercession for us in Heaven.

No one in Heaven just "sits around" but neither do they receive prayers from people still living on earth. Prayer can be directed only to God, not thru anyone else.

Oh, so you know everything that happens in Heaven?

So you don't ask your family to help you pray? If we must pray ONLY to God, then if you ask your family (living) to help you pray you are blasepheming also.

If you truly want to follow the example of saints who have gone on before us, you would pray to and worship God the same way they did. They didn't pray to other people. They didn't pray to Moses and Abraham. They prayed to God only.

Did they tell you that?
As for Abraham and Moses, they were special mediators between God and the People. The People never prayed to God, only Abraham and Moses and other special mediators. In some ways we view the Saints as special mediators for us on Earth. Not fully the same no, because we can and do pray directly to God.

When Jesus gave us His examples of prayer, He never mentioned praying to other people.

Not TO, never TO.

How can you pray WITH a dead person? How can you speak to a dead person? Why would you? Jesus wants you to turn to Him. A Christian's goal is to become Christlike.

If you want to argue living vs dead. Jesus is dead, so by your arguement tells me that I can't pray to Jesus because he is dead.

Abraham and Elijah are dead also but Peter, James and John saw them with Jesus at the trasfiguration. So your arguement tells me they can't have - but the Bible tells me otherwise.

Plus we talk about Saints who are dead, but Saints are also alive (Peter and Paul both called the Christians alive at that time saints).

Paul also wrote that "we being many are one bread, and one body;" does that mean we are also eating each others' body too?

Of course not.

No, but my physical body is not attached to yours. This scripture refers not to the Lord's Supper, but to our function as Christian community. We can't all be "eyes" or "hands" in our Earthly life. We have different jobs here as followers of Christ, but that when everyone does their job we run smoothly as does a body in fit condition.

Same with the bread - each ingredient has a different function (flour, eggs, etc) but put them together and you get a loaf of bread.

Hands should be hands, Eggs should be eggs. That is - people called to serve as ministers should do so, people called to be actors should do so, called to work with the poor (etc).

Christians are supposed to partake in the Lord's Supper "in remembrance" of Him, not to reenact Christ's sacrifice. The bread and cup are not holy; only He is holy.

Catholics (in general) place the emphasis on the fact that Jesus said DO THIS, not "pretend to do this" or "do something like this". and THIS IS MY BODY not "this will represent my body to you".

If Jesus had wanted us to drink wine and eat bread he would have said something like this ---> This cup of wine is now the wine of the new covenant. This bread the bread of the new convenant.

But Jesus did say ---> "This bread is MY BODY, which will be given up for you. This cup is the BLOOD of the new covenant. DO THIS, and remember me."

More importantly, Paul met and knew the resurrected Christ. Peter was just another apostle.

So Peter didn't meet the resurrected Christ? I don't think so. Jesus met the Apostles many times. Jesus even fed the Apostles on the beach once. Jesus asked Peter "Do you Love me" AFTER he died.
Paul never actually met the Resurrected Christ, only heard him.
Don't forget that Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church".

Paul did not say that he believed that the bread and wine were actually the body of Christ.

Yes, he did:

1 Corinthians 10
16. Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
This is a rhetorical question - Paul is reminding the saints at Corinth that it IS the body and blood.
1 Corinthians 11
27. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.
If it is only bread and wine then how can one be a) unworthy to eat it and b)guilty of the body and blood?

I'm beginning to wonder why so much of your emphasis is on the necessity for depending on material things in order to focus on and remember Christ? (Images, candles, Rosary beads, Eucharist, crucifix, "saints", Mary, etc.)

Because we ARE human. If we didn't need material things we would be in Heaven already.
Plus Rosary beads are a counting system. Nothing more.
My emphasis has been nothing but responding to your points.

The Catholic Church keeps many of the things you talk about because they come from tradition. If you come froma German background, maybe you keep a beerstein around or wear lederhosen? (OK maybe not lederhosen :giggles

Suppose you come from Japan - a Kimono is not out of place, when praticing Karate you wear a Gi and repeat a special creed - you also bow to your teacher and sometimes to the picture of a dead teacher (do you worship that?)

Maybe you go to the White House - should they take down the pictures of the Presidents? (Or for us Canadians Parliament Hill and the Prime Ministers)
If anything is being worshipped - those pictures are - people pay to see them, they are kept in special halls, people go in with very reverent feelings (many people). Or the statue of Abraham Lincoln, many people go there to TALK to Abe Lincoln :-o Blasphemy!!!

All of these things are traditions, doesn't mean they are wrong

Yes, I know about Passover.

Again, yes. The Passover Seder pictured the coming Christ.

I'm not telling the Jews how to perform their rituals because they aren't making claim of being Christians. Since they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, why should they stop following their religion? It certainly doesn't make any sense to tell non-Christians that they should use Christian rituals. There is no spiritual value in non-believers being forced to follow believers' sacraments. In fact, that would be blasphemous. A Christian can't partake in the Lord's Supper until after believers' baptism, which happens after salvation. The Lord's Supper is for Christian believers only.

Ah, but before it was The Lord's Supper it was the Passover Seder, so you are still telling me that Jewish people can't take part in the Seder.

What do those verses have to do with Christ's body and blood? I don't see them mentioned in those verses.

What I meant with those passages is that Jesus gave the Apostles (and their successors) the power to forgive sins, heal people, perform the Lord's Supper as TRUE SACRIFICE - meaning that bread and wine become body and blood same as Christ did because HE gave them that power.

The body of Christ on earth is His church, the body of believers.

I agree with that.

The blood of Christ is sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in Heaven, forever cleansing our sins.

But we still have to admit our sins.

As an obedient earthly son, not as God reigning in Heaven.

So? Are you saying that Jesus chooses when He is God and when He is Man? That would be blasphemy. Jesus is GOD AND MAN BOTH at the same time. What Jesus as Man did, Jesus as God did same time. Plus if Jesus were choosing to be a Man at the Wedding of Cana, then He couldn't change water into wine, humans don't have that kind of power.

So no Catholics ever bow before Mary's image, pray to her, say the Rosary, or light candles to her? And the nuns no longer teach the kids at Catholic school that if Jesus won't let them into Heaven, Mary will open the back door and let them sneak in? Mary is no longer the Immaculate Conception who ascended to Heaven without experiencing death? Catholics now ignore the edict from Pope John Paul II encouraging the veneration of Mary? What about this:

Let me explain again, Mary is Honoured, not Worshipped. You respect your mother yes? Catholics respect Mary as the Mother of God. Doesn't matter that God existed before Mary did, God as Jesus the Saviour in Human Form still lived inside her womb and was raised by her and Joseph.

Yes, we believe that Mary was concieved without sin and that she was raised to Heaven Body and Soul. No, we don't know for sure if Mary went to Heaven without death. The only one we can be sure of is Elijah as we can read in the Old Testament:
2 Kings 2
11. As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
12. Elisha saw it and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

Yes, we follow the words of John Paul II. Veneration is not worship, veneration is honouring and respecting.

And the nuns no longer teach the kids at Catholic school that if Jesus won't let them into Heaven, Mary will open the back door and let them sneak in?

:giggles: That's cute. Maybe they taught that before Vatican II but not today!

Yes, I know about Maccabbees. That is not part of recognized canon of Scripture.

It is for Catholics, what you call the Apocrypha is part of the Canon of the Catholic Bible.

Yes, I know which Lazarus. If you notice in that story, living people on earth did NOT pray to any dead saints in Heaven.

Ah, but even the dead rich man should have prayed/talked directly to God, not to Abraham then. And since Jesus told the story, then I would rather think that He was right.

Some of the Jews might have believed that but that's not the way God did things--they believed in error. There is nothing in the Bible that says it's OK to pray to anyone other than God. There is nothing in the Bible that says it's OK to "talk" to dead people.

So you are the last authority on the way God does things? I don't claim to know exactly what God's plan is, but I certainly won't venture to say that the Jewish people of 3000 years ago are in error because "that's not the way God did things".

I'm referring specifically to lighting candles to hasten souls out of Purgatory and into Heaven, and for praying to Mary and saints. I'm not talking about lighting candles for mood or ambiance.

The candles are nothing more than a visual SYMBOL of the PRAYERS we make to God. Candles are candles, lighting a candle does nothing, if they did something then many more miracles would happen during power outs.

Plus, who said we light candles so we can pray to Mary and the Saints? I always thought that when I light a candle in prayer I am lighting it to center myself and represent my prayers to GOD.

"Start and end with God"--so to whom are you praying in between?

God. Maybe I wasn't quite clear. Maybe I say "Hello God, here I am. I have some requests to make. I want to thank you for some things. I want to tell you how I feel today (etc). You are the greatest. Thank you for listening, Goodbye God."

Maybe not great example, but crossing myself is like saying Hello and goodbye to God and in between I tell God exactly what I want to say.

You never pray to Mary or saints?

Again NEVER TO.

So how can you make such a blanket statement about all Catholics?

I am making statements about the Code of Canon Law of the Catholic Church. I can't talk about any one person but myself. When I say Catholics I mean Canon Law. I should have said that before.

Jesus Christ wasn't baptized for the reason of salvation or church membership. He was sinless, so He didn't need to be saved first; He had no sins from which to be saved. Even John the Baptist recognized that. That's why he hesitated at first to baptise Jesus. Jesus insisted on begin baptised as a public example for the rest of us. All of us human sinners need to be saved first because we aren't sinless like Jesus. After we are saved, we are positionally sinless, and therefor are ready to be baptized in the manner of Jesus.

One person making a baptism decision and action for another is worthless. Each person, within his or her own heart, must make that decision, and it can only be made after salvation, which is also a personal decision.

That is what I am saying, Catholics have what is called Confirmation, means we accept and confirm our Baptism. Means we understand what Baptism is for and that we want to continue with that Baptism.

Baptism doesn't wash away sins. The sins are forgiven only thru personal repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Savior. Baptizing an unsaved person only makes them wet.

How come John the Baptist didn't baptize any babies?

Infant Baptism comes from Early Christian history when people were "With all their Household" (including babies). This is tradition that the Catholic Church kept and continues.

 

[mecooncat]

I do know that Catholics pray for Pope and looks up to him thinks he's God. Christian don't pray or look up to him. Pope is not "God". Over the years, I've been hearing how Catholics keep secrets from us. Look what happened to child molesters. I know in Viatian (sp?) they're hiding something in here. I do know most do lie, most will go inside the church to confess and the priest will keep secrets. God knows what's going on. Because it is written in the book of our life. Where did they get the money??? How come they look so rich? I call them greedy. I don't dress up to look pretty to go church. I wear a sweater and jeans to go the church. There this woman, I've met a year ago. She is born-again Christian and you know what she wears, her motorcycle outfit to church.

 

[jazzy]

I do know that Catholics pray for Pope and looks up to him thinks he's God.
Really that is what u see in me, look up to him and think he is God? No, again it is your guessing.
Over the years, I've been hearing how Catholics keep secrets from us.
What is secrets? Do I keep my secret from u? Give me an example of what ur talking about.
Look what happened to child molesters. They are gone, not too long ago Catholic Church put zero tolerate on those priests, once if they did they are out. And they also screening those men who want to be priests and they have to pass psycology test now.
I know in Viatian (sp?) they're hiding something in here. What are they hiding? Tell me.
I do know most do lie, most will go inside the church to confess and the priest will keep secrets. What about u and other Christians? Do they lie? Of course I know many Christians do lies. As for the priests, they took vow to keep secret between the confessors and God. Where did they get the money???From us.
How come they look so rich? Really, how come we still have this trailer buidling for many years, we work so hard to fundraise and one day we will build the church. It will be years before we get those money to build a church. Church has property and they have to pay bills. Priests does not make much money, I have seen some of them drive old car around. I call them greedy.
Really how come Catholic is one of most charity organization in the world, always help poor people. One time they paid my doctor bills because I did not have health insurance at that time. I don't dress up to look pretty to go church. I wear a sweater and jeans to go the church. Me too.
There this woman, I've met a year ago. She is born-again Christian and you know what she wears, her motorcycle outfit to church. Really hope this one does not show naked butt cuz I have seen too many biker women wear only black leather and expose their butts. I know one of the Bapitst Church, they require men to wear tie and women to wear dress, not my thing.

I am not going to argue with those people who hate Catholic, it has no effect on me and my faith in God thru this church. I let them beleive what they want and let them believe we be burn in hell forever cuz that is what they told by their fellow christians.

 

[missLsej]

I do know that Catholics pray for Pope and looks up to him thinks he's God. Christian don't pray or look up to him. Pope is not "God". Over the years, I've been hearing how Catholics keep secrets from us. Look what happened to child molesters. I know in Viatian (sp?) they're hiding something in here. I do know most do lie, most will go inside the church to confess and the priest will keep secrets. God knows what's going on. Because it is written in the book of our life. Where did they get the money??? How come they look so rich? I call them greedy. I don't dress up to look pretty to go church. I wear a sweater and jeans to go the church. There this woman, I've met a year ago. She is born-again Christian and you know what she wears, her motorcycle outfit to church.

We don't think the Pope is God. Where did you get that idea? We do look up to the Pope, but that is because the Pope has spent many years studying and praying. We repect him. Pope is like a Principal of a school, respected because they earned that job and followed because they know what they are doing and have studied many years.

Yes we pray for the Pope same as I might pray FOR my Family.

So history is full of mistakes, you going to hate Russian people because government put many people in gulags? You going to think British people are bad because they had slaves in the past? Or American people? History doesn't mean things we do today are bad, it means people in history made mistakes. Also, about child molesters - the % number of child molesters coming from priests is no bigger than coming from any other profession (doctors, teachers, etc.) so don't tell me only priests are child molesters and that makes all Catholic teaching bad.

Vatican does not keep secrets. All the archives are open to public, to only thing that keeps most people out is they want to protect to very old things from getting ruined, not keep people from seeing them no. Only to keep them there for longer so more genuine research can be done.

Confession - was wondering when this one would be brought out. Confession between Priest and person is private and Priests don't talk about what people say in confession. This is true. BUT it is not because priests want to keep secrets from the world no. It is same as going to a psychiatrist or a Doctor. Do you want the Doctor telling a stranger about your cancer maybe? Or The Psychiatrist telling the office worker about your nightmares and wetting the bed maybe at 25 years old? (Just examples not meant that anyone actually has this happen). No. I think you don't want your personal things to be told to other people. Same for confession.

You maybe want to say that we don't need priest for confession, can confess right to God? Ok two things - first if you confess straight to God you still have secret - so you can't argue me that priest keeps secret - you keep secrets when you confess direct to God and don't tell other people. Second I go back to the psychiatrist idea. Talking to another person about something you did can help you feel better afterwards, and that other person maybe can help you think of ways to fix the problem. Priest is there to help us find ways to fix what we did wrong and feel better after we do that.

As for the money and why the Vatican look so rich: Many of the things the Vatican has are centuries old, not bought yesterday. Should we take something that is hundreds of years old and throw it away or melt the gold? No.

As for getting dressed up to go to Sunday services. Why shouldn't we get dressed up? We are going to see Jesus, God and Saviour! We are going to celebrate the reason he saved us! I want to look special for him! I don't go buy new outfit every week no, but I do wear nice skirt and jacket, etc. You want to wear comfortable clothes to service that's your choice, don't criticise people for what they wear, just mean and rude that. Also, people who are not Christians often get all dressed up for a party or for no reason, you going to criticise them too?

Also you want Bible reason for why we get dressed up?
Here: Jesus called himself "Bridegroom" many times, so if we go to Church to celebrate Jesus we go to celebrate a Wedding -who goes to a wedding and NOT get dressed up? Jesus told us to be ready for him when he comes because we "don't know the hour or the day" he will come. One way we keep ready and watching is by once a week celebrating His death and resurrection and getting dressed and ready for a wedding.
Also Jesus words here:
Luke 14
35. "Be dressed in readiness, and keep your lamps lit.
36. "Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.
37. "Blessed are those slaves whom the master will find on the alert when he comes; truly I say to you, that he will gird himself to serve, and have them recline at the table, and will come up and wait on them. 38. "Whether he comes in the second watch, or even in the third, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
Matthew 22
11. when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12. and he said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless.
13. "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Matthew 25
1. "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2. "Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.
3. "For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
4. but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.
5. "Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.
6. "But at midnight there was a shout, `Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
7. "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
8. "The foolish said to the prudent, `Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
9. "But the prudent answered, `No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
10. "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.
11. "Later the other virgins also came, saying, `Lord, lord, open up for us.'
12. "But he answered, `Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
13. "Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

 

[Reba]

I say again, the statues and the icons and the other things are there not so that we pray to them (statues or people) NONONONO.

I ask you, think about something you really like here on Earth. Suppose you have that in your room (let's say teddy bear). Suppose you kneel beside your bed and your teddy is on the bed same time. I can argue then that you are praying TO your teddy bear.

Are you praying to your teddy? No, how silly. But should I tell you not to pray beside your bed with your teddy there because I think you are praying to your teddy? No, because I don't know what your prayer is. I don't claim to know what goes through every persons head during prayer, I just know that Catholic Canon Law tells us that the Saints can gain intercession for us in Heaven.

When I pray, I'm not addressing my prayer to anyone other than God. I don't say, "Dear Teddy, hear my prayer."

Are you saying that Catholics do not pray to Mary or deceased saints?

Oh, so you know everything that happens in Heaven?

I know that God does not lie, and His Bible is true. I trust what God tells us about Heaven in His Word, the Holy Bible.

Deuteronomy 18
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD

God condemned speaking to the dead.

God told us the right way to pray:

Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

You see, pray only to God, the Heavenly Father. No Mary, no saints mentioned.[/quote]

So you don't ask your family to help you pray? If we must pray ONLY to God, then if you ask your family (living) to help you pray you are blasepheming also.

What do you mean "help you pray"? Do you mean you ask someone (alive) to come kneel with you and pray together? That's fine. You're not praying to that person.

Personally, I don't care what you do. It doesn't affect me. I just don't want other people to read this thread and think that praying to Mary, saints, dead people, etc., is OK. It is not OK, and I will say that. I don't hate you or any other Catholics, and if disobey God that's your problem. But I won't just sit quiet and let you mislead other people.

Did they tell you that?
As for Abraham and Moses, they were special mediators between God and the People. The People never prayed to God, only Abraham and Moses and other special mediators. In some ways we view the Saints as special mediators for us on Earth. Not fully the same no, because we can and do pray directly to God.

It's in the Bible. You can ignore it if you wish.

Abraham and Moses were mediators, and the high priests of the Levite tribe were mediators, prior to the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the High Priest Himself, the One and Only final High Priest. Our only High Priest and Mediator is now Jesus Christ. The roles of the OT high priests and animal sacrifices are over, finished.

The church Christians (also called "saints") lived and died under the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. They are not allowed to take on His priestly duties. It would be blasphemy. Just like in the OT when someone took on priestly duties for Israel even though not of the tribe of Levi. That was a great sin, and God punished that.

There are no "saint" mediators, whether or not you want to "view" them that way.

Judges 21
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Just because something seems right in our own eyes doesn't make it so.

Not TO, never TO.

Do you ever pray:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."?

If you want to argue living vs dead. Jesus is dead, so by your arguement tells me that I can't pray to Jesus because he is dead.

Did you not read that I said dead person? Jesus Christ is immortal God, in His resurrected body. No one else fits that classification. Jesus is not dead.

As you are a Catholic, I'm shocked that you would say "Jesus is dead."

Abraham and Elijah are dead also but Peter, James and John saw them with Jesus at the trasfiguration. So your arguement tells me they can't have - but the Bible tells me otherwise.

Did they pray to them? No. Remember, they spoke with Jesus, not the apostles. (BTW, it was Moses, not Abraham.)

Plus we talk about Saints who are dead, but Saints are also alive (Peter and Paul both called the Christians alive at that time saints).

Live Christians today are still called saints. We aren't supposed to pray to any saints, living or dead. None, zero, nada, zip.

No, but my physical body is not attached to yours.

Right. And the physical body of Jesus is not attached to (or in) the bread.

Catholics (in general) place the emphasis on the fact that Jesus said DO THIS...

The "doing" is the breaking and eating the bread, drinking the juice, and remembering Christ.

... not "pretend to do this" or "do something like this"

There is not pretending involved. People really do eat, drink, and remember.

But Jesus did say ---> "This bread is MY BODY, which will be given up for you. This cup is the BLOOD of the new covenant. DO THIS, and remember me."

Jesus gave us bread and juice to use because He wasn't leaving His actual body and blood behind for each Christian of every generation to cannabalize. As He said, it was His body that would be given (at the time of the supper, He hadn't yet been to the cross, so His bodily sacrifice hadn't yet happened in the apostles' experience).

Let me ask you this. Why is it so important to you to partake in the Lord's Supper? I know my answer. I would like to know your's.

So Peter didn't meet the resurrected Christ? I don't think so.

I didn't say that. I was referring to your statement:

"That tells me that PAUL, who was only one generation behind the Apostles (and knew Peter) believed that the bread and wine WERE and ARE the body of Christ. (unless they had a mouldy piece left over from Jesus' original?)"

You said only that Paul knew Peter; that emphasized knowing one of the apostles as being more significant than actually knowing Jesus. You didn't say anything about Peter meeting the resurrected Christ. Of course he did. But Paul did too, without Peter's help.

Paul never actually met the Resurrected Christ, only heard him.

And that doesn't count as a meeting? So a blind person who has only heard someone hasn't actually met the person? A deaf person who has only seen someone hasn't actually met the person?

BTW, Who do you think was that bright light that appeared from Heaven, brighter than the noonday sun? Paul saw.

Don't forget that Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church".

The church is the body of believers, and Jesus Christ is its Head and Cornerstone. There is no other. His church is built upon faith in Jesus.


I will continue later. I have to get ready to go to church now.

 

[missLsej]

When I pray, I'm not addressing my prayer to anyone other than God. I don't say, "Dear Teddy, hear my prayer."

Of course not, but I was making the point that I can look at that picture and maybe think you ARE saying "Dear Teddy, hear my prayer". So, same idea, don't look at a Catholic person and think they are worshipping the statue because they are kneeling near it. Prayers always go to God.

Are you saying that Catholics do not pray to Mary or deceased saints?

I know that God does not lie, and His Bible is true. I trust what God tells us about Heaven in His Word, the Holy Bible.

Deuteronomy 18
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD

If you know the history of the Bible then you know that this is talking about looking for answers in these things.
A consulter with familiar spirits - someone who talks to a spirit and expects an answer. We don't expect any answers for one, and for two we are not trying to "conjure" anything.

or a necromancer
Necromancy is divination by raising the spirits of the dead. The word derives from the Greek necros "dead" and manteia "divination". It has a subsidiary meaning reflected in an alternative and archaic form of the word, nigromancy, (a folk etymology using Latin niger, "black") in which the magical force of "dark powers" is gained from or by acting upon corpses. A practitioner of necromancy is a necromancer.

Catholics do not do this.

God condemned speaking to the dead.

God told us the right way to pray:

Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11
1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

You see, pray only to God, the Heavenly Father. No Mary, no saints mentioned.

So you don't pray to Jesus then?

Also the Lord's prayer is, yes, a prayer unto itself. It is also a representation of HOW to pray:
Our Father in Heaven (always addressing God)
Hallowed by thy name(praise God for the sake of praise)
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done(express willingness that God's work be done)
On Earth, as it is in Heaven(self-explaning)
Give us this day our daily bread(ask for the things you need for living God's way)
and forgive us our trespasses(self-explaning)
as we forgive those who trespass against us(self-explaning)
Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil(ask for his protection and help again)
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory forever(praise God again)Amen.

So I can pray like this if I choose:
"In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Praise be to God, all glory and honour to you Lord Jesus Christ,
Lord, I wish to do your works and follow in the footsteps of St. Andrew for your glory. Jesus, St. Andrew was one of your first Disciples, help me to be like him. Guide my ways to be like him. I ask that the Holy Spirit come and give me the wisdom Andrew had in finding people who had gifts and bring them to Jesus. Lord God, I wish to glorify you and lead others to Jesus as Andrew did. Help me, for I am a poor sinner. Forgive me for the wrong things I do, and help me to forgive those who do wrong to me.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. Amen"

What do you mean "help you pray"? Do you mean you ask someone (alive) to come kneel with you and pray together? That's fine. You're not praying to that person.

Of course not, but this discussion hinges on a set of books in the Bible that you don't believe are canon and Catholics do so why not just agree to disagree?

Personally, I don't care what you do. It doesn't affect me. I just don't want other people to read this thread and think that praying to Mary, saints, dead people, etc., is OK. It is not OK, and I will say that. I don't hate you or any other Catholics, and if disobey God that's your problem. But I won't just sit quiet and let you mislead other people.

Why do you insist on using the word "TO"? I never said you hated me, please don't put words into my mind that were never there.

It's in the Bible. You can ignore it if you wish.

Where?

Abraham and Moses were mediators, and the high priests of the Levite tribe were mediators, prior to the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the High Priest Himself, the One and Only final High Priest. Our only High Priest and Mediator is now Jesus Christ. The roles of the OT high priests and animal sacrifices are over, finished.

The church Christians (also called "saints") lived and died under the Priesthood of Jesus Christ. They are not allowed to take on His priestly duties. It would be blasphemy. Just like in the OT when someone took on priestly duties for Israel even though not of the tribe of Levi. That was a great sin, and God punished that.

Actually Jesus sent the Holy Spirit as counsellor and mediator. But he also commissioned the Apostles:

Matthew 16
19. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

Matthew 18
18. "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

John 20
21. So Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." 22. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

There are no "saint" mediators, whether or not you want to "view" them that way.

Again I say, if there are NO saint mediators, praying with your living family is blasphemy also.

Judges 21
25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Just because something seems right in our own eyes doesn't make it so.

I could take that arguement and use it exactly the same against you and your belief.

Do you ever pray:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."?

In doing this we turn ourselves over to God's Mercy in Jesus Christ through Mary.

Mary is representing the Mercy Seat of Heaven for us. She is where God, Jesus the Christ, Lord and Saviour dwellt for the beginnings of his Earthly life and to whom he turned during his childhood for succor. Plus we do view Mary as the Mother of the Church because of the handing over over Mary to John by Jesus.

Also don't forget Mary's fiat and Canticle "My Soul magnifies the Lord...all generations shall call me blessed."

Did you not read that I said dead person? Jesus Christ is immortal God, in His resurrected body. No one else fits that classification. Jesus is not dead.

As you are a Catholic, I'm shocked that you would say "Jesus is dead."

I was trying to prove a point only, I know that Jesus is Lord and Saviour and Risen from the dead. I know he lives.

Don't forget that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, so there is evidence of dead people living again by God's allowing it. Also:
Luke 20 (also found in Matthew 22, Mark 12)
37. "But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB.
38. "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him."

So, if Jesus is God of the living NOT the dead, that means that the Saints are alive in Heaven.

Did they pray to them? No. Remember, they spoke with Jesus, not the apostles. (BTW, it was Moses, not Abraham.)

Thank you, my mistake, yes it was Moses. No they didn't pray to them but they did bow down and Peter wanted to make three special tents for them, so they were there, which means that dead people can live again.

Live Christians today are still called saints. We aren't supposed to pray to any saints, living or dead. None, zero, nada, zip.

I ask again, why do you insist on saying TO?

Right. And the physical body of Jesus is not attached to (or in) the bread.

The "doing" is the breaking and eating the bread, drinking the juice, and remembering Christ.

There is not pretending involved. People really do eat, drink, and remember.

Jesus gave us bread and juice to use because He wasn't leaving His actual body and blood behind for each Christian of every generation to cannabalize. As He said, it was His body that would be given (at the time of the supper, He hadn't yet been to the cross, so His bodily sacrifice hadn't yet happened in the apostles' experience).

Let me ask you this. Why is it so important to you to partake in the Lord's Supper? I know my answer. I would like to know your's.

John 6
51. "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

If it is simple bread and wine/juice then why would Christ say that?

I take part in the Lord's Supper because it is my belief that Jesus is present there in the Bread and Wine become Body and Blood. I have a devotion to Jesus that draws me to Him. Every day I pray "Lord, remember me in your Kingdom", "Living Bread of Heaven, nourish my soul" and "Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, I adore you."

I didn't say that. I was referring to your statement:

"That tells me that PAUL, who was only one generation behind the Apostles (and knew Peter) believed that the bread and wine WERE and ARE the body of Christ. (unless they had a mouldy piece left over from Jesus' original?)"

You said only that Paul knew Peter; that emphasized knowing one of the apostles as being more significant than actually knowing Jesus. You didn't say anything about Peter meeting the resurrected Christ. Of course he did. But Paul did too, without Peter's help.

No, you are putting words where they don't belong. I never said that knowing the Apostles was more important than knowing Jesus. I was trying to connect the fact that Peter knew Jesus and lived with him for three years, and met him as the resurrected Christ.

Paul, on the other hand, was knocked off his horse and was spoken to by Jesus. Didn't spend three years with Jesus, didn't get the chance to touch Jesus and eat with him. Spent many years learning about Jesus yes but not nearly as close as Peter. So Paul, who didn't eat with Jesus, believed that it was the Body and Blood (not just bread and wine/juice). Paul was likely taught by Peter or one of the other original Apostles. So if Paul, who was taught by the Apostles (and they were taught by Jesus himself) believed the Bread and Wine WERE/ARE the Body and Blood of Christ, then who am I to disagree?

And that doesn't count as a meeting? So a blind person who has only heard someone hasn't actually met the person? A deaf person who has only seen someone hasn't actually met the person?

My apologies if you read that in what I said. I never meant that. For one I am HoH, without aids I am practically deaf. I also have vision problems, so no I never meant that.

BTW, Who do you think was that bright light that appeared from Heaven, brighter than the noonday sun? Paul saw.

A bright light.

The church is the body of believers, and Jesus Christ is its Head and Cornerstone. There is no other. His church is built upon faith in Jesus.

Then how do you explain this:

Matthew 16
16. Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17. And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
18. "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
19. "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

 

[mecooncat]

I'm talking about others in my lifetime from what I've seen and heard. I don't hate you. It saddens me when I see some one falls into false gods. I'm trying to get my point to others.

There are some people will tell me that Pope is "God" and prays for him. I don't do that.

Yes, history is full of mistakes but it still continues on. No, I'm not referring to priests only but also others as well.

I'm not sure about that. Why did they kept secret from us from underground storage that was sealed shut tight and doesn't want anyone to know about? Do you know what's in there??

Confession: I understands about between patient and doctor. But I don't understand why priests keeps secrets from the police. Say for example, someone confessed to a priest that he murdered someone. The person asked for forgiveness and so priest keeps a secrets. I'm wondering does the priest ever reported to police that the person has committed a crime. I do know that the priest has called the police about robbery or the place was ransacked.

I still don't understand why Churches is full gold and silver, granite, marbles with full of stained glass windows, painted ceilings, etc. I was watching the funeral of President Ford on tv. I was shocked to see the National Church that looks like a Mansion.

And other thing, why do you have choirs, nuns, priests, bishops, cardinals? Why all those people?

Okay, I apologize for the dressing part except the wedding part. Nowadays people do get married outside the church.

 

[Reba]

Don't forget that Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church".

Matthew 16
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [petros, "little rock piece"], and upon this rock [petra, "bedrock"] I will build my church; and the gates of hell [hades, "death"] shall not prevail against it.

The Church will be built on the Rock (Petra) of Jesus.

As Peter himself said, Jesus is that Rock:

I Peter 2
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

Paul never refers to Peter as the Rock. Paul wrote:

Ephesians 2
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I Corinthians 10
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

...If it is only bread and wine then how can one be a) unworthy to eat it and b)guilty of the body and blood?

A believer with unconfessed sin in his heart is not supposed to participate in the Lord's Supper until he confesses and repents that sin. By accepting the bread and juice, the believer is showing that his relationship with the Lord is right; that would be a lie, and a mockery of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross. That beilever's sin put Jesus on the cross to shed His blood, but he's not respecting that sacrifice by accepting the supper without a clean heart. That believer will be subject to God's judgment and chastisement of that unconfessed sin.

Jesus is not present in the bread and juice. Jesus is present amongst the believers who are partaking in the supper. It is His presence that makes the supper holy. If there is a plate of bread left over after the service, and it sits on the table after all the believers leave the building, then it is just a plate of bread.

Because we ARE human. If we didn't need material things we would be in Heaven already.
Plus Rosary beads are a counting system. Nothing more.

Counting what?

Matthew 6
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Also notice: "pray to thy Father". It doesn't say pray to Mary.

The Catholic Church keeps many of the things you talk about because they come from tradition. If you come froma German background, maybe you keep a beerstein around or wear lederhosen? (OK maybe not lederhosen :giggles

Suppose you come from Japan - a Kimono is not out of place, when praticing Karate you wear a Gi and repeat a special creed - you also bow to your teacher and sometimes to the picture of a dead teacher (do you worship that?)

Maybe you go to the White House - should they take down the pictures of the Presidents? (Or for us Canadians Parliament Hill and the Prime Ministers)
If anything is being worshipped - those pictures are - people pay to see them, they are kept in special halls, people go in with very reverent feelings (many people). Or the statue of Abraham Lincoln, many people go there to TALK to Abe Lincoln :-o Blasphemy!!!

All of these things are traditions, doesn't mean they are wrong

They are wrong if they are used as part of worship and prayer.

If someone is worshiping or praying to former presidents, then they have a serious problem. What they are doing is wrong, and they need help.

Not all "traditions" are good. Just because something has been done for years, or has been around for years, doesn't make it OK. There are such things as bad traditions.

When we become new creatures in Christ we're supposed to quit the bad traditions.

I personally know many Christians who used to be members of other religions. After they became saved, they got rid of "traditional" articles of their former religions. Just like in the NT, many new Christians quit buying meat offered to idols.

Ah, but before it was The Lord's Supper it was the Passover Seder, so you are still telling me that Jewish people can't take part in the Seder.

Not at all. It is now the Lord's Supper when Christian believers gather together and do it in remembrance of the Lord.

It is a Passover Seder when Jews gather together and do it following OT traditions and beliefs.

Two different groups of people doing two different ceremonies.

Some of the elements are the same, but the groups involved and the representations of the elements are NOT the same now.

What I meant with those passages is that Jesus gave the Apostles (and their successors) the power to forgive sins, heal people, perform the Lord's Supper as TRUE SACRIFICE - meaning that bread and wine become body and blood same as Christ did because HE gave them that power.

The Apostles had no successors. When they died, that was the end of the apostolic era. Their powers died with them. All forgiveness and healing is directly from the Lord. Even IF the bread and wine became the body and blood thru some kind of power of the Apostles (which it didn't but I'm using your line of supposition), it would end with their deaths. Finis.

But we still have to admit our sins.

Yes, to keep a good relationship between us and the Lord, to have peace free from guilt, and to have a good testimony before men. We don't lose our salvation if we have unconfessed sin but we do lose our joy, and our fellowship with the Lord, and His blessings.

So? Are you saying that Jesus chooses when He is God and when He is Man? That would be blasphemy. Jesus is GOD AND MAN BOTH at the same time. What Jesus as Man did, Jesus as God did same time. Plus if Jesus were choosing to be a Man at the Wedding of Cana, then He couldn't change water into wine, humans don't have that kind of power.

Jesus was always fully Man and fully God. While on earth, He did live as Man, with the same physical and emotional feelings, yet He sinned not. He also surrendered His Kingship role while on earth, in order to live as a child in obedience to His parents, and religious and civil authorities. That doesn't mean His powers weren't always present; He just chose when to exercise them. He always had the ability change water into wine. He chose when and where to do it.

Let me explain again, Mary is Honoured, not Worshipped. You respect your mother yes? Catholics respect Mary as the Mother of God. Doesn't matter that God existed before Mary did, God as Jesus the Saviour in Human Form still lived inside her womb and was raised by her and Joseph.

I don't pray to my mother for intercession in Heaven. My mother's image is not displayed in houses of worship or on roadside shrines.

Christians also honor Mary but we never mention her name in prayer.

Yes, we believe that Mary was concieved without sin ...

That is in opposition to the Bible:

Romans 3
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Luke 1
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Mary sinned, therefor needed a Savior just like every other sinner does.

Her parents were human sinners, so how could she have been conceived without original sin nature? She couldn't have been.

and that she was raised to Heaven Body and Soul. No, we don't know for sure if Mary went to Heaven without death.

There are no Bible verses supporting Mary's ascension.

The only one we can be sure of is Elijah as we can read in the Old Testament:
2 Kings 2
11. As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.
12. Elisha saw it and cried out, "My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces.

Since there are verses supporting and describing Elijah's departure, how come there aren't any pertaining to Mary? Answer: because it didn't happen.


Break