Childs behavior

jillio said:
Tell me, are you asking the deaf to use their weakest sense to learn when it comes to oral language?
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CI make children hear. It no longer their weak sense. At least that's what I'm getting from these parents.
 
deafgal001 said:
CI make children hear. It no longer their weak sense. At least that's what I'm getting from these parents.
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Even though they hear somewhat through their CI, their auditory sense is still their weakest sense. Hearing is never restored to perfection. At the very best, the majority still function at the level of moderate to mild HOH. And anyone with even a mild loss will tell you how much they miss when relying on their hearing. It has been well documented that even a mild loss interferes with the perception of auditory stimuli and with the process of learning in an auditory environment. But, then, I think you already know this.
 
Daredevel7 said:
Just to clarify everything:

Beclak, are you saying that if one has good oral skills, he can speak English well? Does this also mean he has good fluency in English?

I think people are switching between two issues:

Does a deaf person who has good oral skills mean s/he is also fluent in English?

Can a deaf person become fluent in English THROUGH oral skills only?
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I appreciate you wanting clarity :)

Ok, I grew up with oral skills only (as everyone well knows) without full access to sounds. Yet, I am fluent in English, yes I still struggle with articulation with some words, but I am fluent in spoken language. The oral skills were learning phonetics, and through phonetics not only was I able to speak fluently but also had the foundation on which to build reading and through reading - language, for some it is purely the ability to conceptualise through visuals so it is not just through reading, such as sign language and perceptions of people, animals and objects around them, pictures etc. You do not need to listen or have full access to sound to achieve fluency in language. I am articulate both in speech and written and it can be either/or for fluency. I still have an 'accent' and it is still a tremendous effort on my part to maintain speech but it has been achieved.

As for 'fighting against oralism' - If I had sign language at the beginning. I would not need to use oral speech as it does not come naturally to me.

I would still however be very fluent in the English language through the written mode as you can see. So it is possible to be fluent in the English language with written mode only also. Does that clarify things?
 
BecLak said:
I appreciate you wanting clarity :)

Ok, I grew up with oral skills only (as everyone well knows) without full access to sounds. Yet, I am fluent in English, yes I still struggle with articulation with some words, but I am fluent in spoken language. The oral skills were learning phonetics, and through phonetics not only was I able to speak fluently but also had the foundation on which to build reading and through reading - language, for some it is purely the ability to conceptualise through visuals not just through reading, such as sign language and perceptions of people, animals and objects around them, pictures etc. You do not need to listen or have full access to sound to achieve fluency in language. I am articulate both in speech and written and it can be either/or for fluency. I still have an 'accent' and it is still a tremendous effort on my part to maintain speech but it has been achieved.

Yet, some people still advocate for using techniques that have been shown to create said gaps. Just does not make sense to me.
As for 'fighting against oralism' - If I had sign language at the beginning. I would not need to use oral speech as it does not come naturally to me.

I would still however be very fluent in the English language through the written mode as you can see. So it is possible to be fluent in the English language with written mode only also. Does that clarify things?
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Exactly. A deaf person can become fluent in language through an oral environment. However, it is more difficult and there are likely to be gaps noticed in the usage of language. And if there are gaps in the usage of the language, that will extrapolate to any subject taught using oral language. If you want fluency, then use an approach most suited to the individual's learning style and cognitive processing type.
 
jillio said:
Exactly. A deaf person can become fluent in language through an oral environment. However, it is more difficult and there are likely to be gaps noticed in the usage of language. And if there are gaps in the usage of the language, that will extrapolate to any subject taught using oral language. If you want fluency, then use an approach most suited to the individual's learning style and cognitive processing type.
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That certainly would be the ideal :D
 
Correct me if I am wrong.

Deaf people weakest sense is always auditory, no matter what amplification they use to help them to hear. Hearing kids can cut out sounds they don;t want to hear or need to hear but Deaf cannot do that even with CI. That what I am told. Deaf also have to learn to listen in harder way even with CI from very early age and hearing kids don't. Also Deaf with CI miss out a lot, hearing too much noise around them and cannot cut out the sounds from background or useless sounds like hearing kids can.
 
Why? Because ASL addresses the perceptive and cognitive needs of the deaf child who is learning. A child cannot learn if their perceptive and cognitive needs are not fully met. Spoken language does not, and never will, fully address the perceptive and cognitive needs of a deaf child. No matter how well amplified and assisted they are, they still need the visual input to make that learning possible.
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Exactly!!!!! While implanted kids can be functionally hoh, hoh kids STILL miss out on a lot of stuff!!!!
 
Bear in mind too, may I add, that there is more than one visual language. Sign Language is by far the best, but there is also the written mode of language. Phonics can be learned just for reading and not necessary for oral speech. A Deaf person/child can also have fluency in written language without the need for oral speech.
 
BecLak said:
No Jillio :), I am referring to the use of the terms 'oral skills' and 'spoken language'. The argument by GrendelQ and Faire_Jour is that they are not the same. They were saying that fluency cannot be achieved with oral skills.

I say Oral Skills = Spoken Language.
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Me too. Otherwise I wouldnt be fluent in spoken language using my oral skills.

I am still not understanding what's so complicated about it. :dunno:
 
shel90 said:
Me too. Otherwise I wouldnt be fluent in spoken language using my oral skills.

I am still not understanding what's so complicated about it. :dunno:
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Because it is possible to have good speech but not good language skills.
 
How can one be fluent in English in the spoken form without oral skills?

One can have good oral skills but never achieve fluency in English.

One can achieve fluency in English without oral skills.

However, one cant achive fluency in English in the spoken form without oral skills. If one doesnt have good oral skills, how can he/she speak the language?

That's how I and others see it.

Apparently some do not see it that way which is confusing to me. No biggie..

Important all deaf people achieve fluency in language to achieve critical thinking skills instead of having language deficits. That is the worse thing anyone can do to deaf children. Just my two cents.
 
shel90 said:
How can one be fluent in English in the spoken form without oral skills?

One can have good oral skills but never achieve fluency in English.

One can achieve fluency in English without oral skills.

However, one cant achive fluency in English in the spoken form without oral skills. If one doesnt have good oral skills, how can he/she speak the language?

That's how I and others see it.

Apparently some do not see it that way which is confusing to me. No biggie..

Important all deaf people achieve fluency in language to achieve critical thinking skills instead of having language deficits. That is the worse thing anyone can do to deaf children. Just my two cents.
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You can have excellent mastery of the English language, in it's spoken form but have terrible oral skills. You could be completely unintelligible to all but a very few close friends. Also, in reverse, you could speak beautifully, with wonderful inflection and a great voice, but merely have memorized a few hundred words and we completely unable to function in spoken English. In the first example, that person has poor oral skills, but excellent spoken language. In the second example, they have great oral skills, but no language.
 
shel90 said:
How can one be fluent in English in the spoken form without oral skills?

One can have good oral skills but never achieve fluency in English.

One can achieve fluency in English without oral skills.

However, one cant achive fluency in English in the spoken form without oral skills. If one doesnt have good oral skills, how can he/she speak the language?
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Can someone with arthritis, who doesn't form smooth handshapes or struggles to write/type be considered fluent in English or ASL? I think so, in the same way that someone with poor oral skills, who can't article certain sounds, can absolutely be fluent in spoken English.
 
GrendelQ said:
Can someone with arthritis, who doesn't form smooth handshapes or struggles to write/type be considered fluent in English or ASL? I think so, in the same way that someone with poor oral skills, who can't article certain sounds, can absolutely be fluent in spoken English.
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Yea, fluent in English but to speak it? It seems like you consider English in the written form and in the spoken form as a separate language?

If someone has poor oral skills, how can they speak English in the spoken form? Yes, they can be fluent in it but to use it in the spoken form? That doesnt make sense to me but then again, what do I know since i cant hear people who speak poor and intelligeble English? :dunno:
 
shel90 said:
Yea, fluent in English but to speak it? It seems like you consider English in the written form and in the spoken form as a separate language?

If someone has poor oral skills, how can they speak English in the spoken form? Yes, they can be fluent in it but to use it in the spoken form? That doesnt make sense to me but then again, what do I know since i cant hear people who speak poor and intelligeble English? :dunno:
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They can speak, but it would be tough to understand. Hence saying that they have poor oral skills.
 
shel90 said:
How can one be fluent in English in the spoken form without oral skills?

One can have good oral skills but never achieve fluency in English.

One can achieve fluency in English without oral skills.

However, one cant achive fluency in English in the spoken form without oral skills. If one doesnt have good oral skills, how can he/she speak the language?

That's how I and others see it.

Apparently some do not see it that way which is confusing to me. No biggie..

Important all deaf people achieve fluency in language to achieve critical thinking skills instead of having language deficits. That is the worse thing anyone can do to deaf children. Just my two cents.
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You nailed it, Shel :thumb:
 
faire_jour said:
They can speak, but it would be tough to understand. Hence saying that they have poor oral skills.
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No different from any hearing person with an accent. Goodness me, if you think that you need to speak without an accent to have fluent spoken language then that narrows it down to a very elite 'supremacy' group.
 
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