Cash for clunkers

[Foxrac]

Ethanol has proven to be less fuel efficient (more power for the buck) than gasoline. It actually reduces your MPG when you mix 10% of Ethanol by volume with gasoline! In terms of energy density (the amount of energy you get out of it) gasoline's energy density is 60% more than Ethanol. Diesel is about 80% more than Ethanol. Natural gas has about 18% more energy density than Ethanol. Cars with ethanol mixed gasoline will require you to pay more money just to get the same MPG if you use just only gasoline. And requires you to buy more of the mixed gasoline in greater volume, too.

Brazil's ethanol comes from sugar cane which is a food crop, also. Not smart. Secondly, not all of Brazil's car run soley on Ethanol but a mix of 25% Ethanol and 75% gasoline. You still need petroleum based gasoline to run the cars and the population continues to grow which means more gasoline is needed.
And before you hold Brazil's sugar cane ethanol as the holy grail of gasoline you might want to read this about how slave labor is used to get the sugar cane to make the "gasoline" for Brazil's vehicles.
A 'Green Tsunami' in Brazil: The High Price of Clean, Cheap Ethanol - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

And you thought that oil was bad?

Oil is big impact on environment, of course.

Ethanol is more cleaner and less emission than gasoline, I do know about less MPG but only lose about 2-3 MPG, it's not much difference.

Oil shale isn't give everything what US need and US still has low oil reserves when compare to middle east, you are just support oil companies to lobbies like many conservative people does. Drilling oil wouldn't solve the problem because you still have buy oil for market price. Oil shale does work when oil price is higher and projection on 1.5 trillions aren't officially accurate, maybe much less.

I don't agree with you about global warming but not right thread to debate and it has already done.

 

[kokonut]

Oil is big impact on environment, of course.

Ethanol is more cleaner and less emission than gasoline, I do know about less MPG but only lose about 2-3 MPG, it's not much difference.

Oil shale isn't give everything what US need and US still has low oil reserves when compare to middle east, you are just support oil companies to lobbies like many conservative people does. Drilling oil wouldn't solve the problem because you still have buy oil for market price. Oil shale does work when oil price is higher and projection on 1.5 trillions aren't officially accurate, maybe much less.

I don't agree with you about global warming but not right thread to debate and it has already done.

The thing about oil shale is that the U.S. has more unconventional oil locked in the shale than the all of the oil in the Middle East by 2 to 3 times as much. We're talking about a trillion barrels of oil in those shales. You have to include tar sands as part of the unconventional oil of which we do have. Alberta Canada has a few trillions worth of barrel of oil locked up in tar sand where Canada is our number #1 oil importer. Still, as for shale oil, that's a lot of oil, son. It's called the Green River oil shale that is spread across the states of Utah, Wyoming and Colorado. If you *actually* do you research on the amount of potential oil (conventional and unconventional oil) the U.S. have, you'll realize how absolutely mind boggling it is and how easy it'd be to wean ourselves from imported oil.

Second thing you do not know. We spend about $500 billion dollars a year on imported oil with the bulk of the money going to Venezuela, Saudia Arabia, and Mexico. Why spend our money on imported oil from unstable and/or unfriendly countries when we already have easy access to our own oil here in the United States? We use our own oil. Keep the money here in the states. Help create jobs. Recirculate our money into our economy and so on. And while we do that we can continue, safely without worry about unstable countries affecting our oil prices, our quest for cleaner and readily available sources of energy. Heck, even Nancy Pelosi spouted the need for more natural gas as our source of energy but that requires drilling and natural gas is a secondary by-product of oil beneath us. Ooh, the irony of Pelosi lack of knowledge.

Thirdly, it's funny how people rant about oil but continue to drive their cars, fly the planes and ride the trains.

 

[Jiro]

Thank you for the link and only found one for closer our house. Geez.

I noticed note said "Please note: Blends data may vary due to seasonal temperatures that impact biodiesel viscosity. Always call ahead to verify."

exactly why it's not practical yet in here. Biodiesel does not work well in winter or cold season. Propane is a compressed gas. that's neither safe nor practical for widespread use in America.

 

[Jiro]

In bold, it's highly debate about ethanol cause food price goes skyrocket but for me, it's not true because most of food price has went up due speculation and heavily investment due CFTC has became weaken to cap on investment on oil, corn, wheat, etc. Now, CFTC has already cap the invest on oil, corn, wheat and few other commodities in last few month ago and I checked future trade on corn price and it will stable, unlike in few years ago when corn price went skyrocket.

There's link about more info.
High Food Prices: Ethanol is Not the Problem

US has alot of projection to grow more corns.

of course you're going to find ANY article that fits your assumption. I can even find an article that will support a person's view saying oil will cause World War 3 - Drifting Toward World War III. Not that I'm saying you're delusional but point is - Internet is a big place. There's incredibly amount of articles out there that lack proper background and basic knowledge. The sad part is.... all you have to do is write good and make it sounds convincing by adding exaggeration, hyperboles, and pictures/graph... and you're good.

The only way to gain some real knowledge is to have an education to understand the material or to obtain articles only from research/academic/library database.

maybe you might wanna get a source from something with substantial background and then take it with a grain of salt. At this kind of research - google is NOT your friend. Library is

 

[Jiro]

Oil is big impact on environment, of course.

Ethanol is more cleaner and less emission than gasoline, I do know about less MPG but only lose about 2-3 MPG, it's not much difference.

Oil shale isn't give everything what US need and US still has low oil reserves when compare to middle east, you are just support oil companies to lobbies like many conservative people does. Drilling oil wouldn't solve the problem because you still have buy oil for market price. Oil shale does work when oil price is higher and projection on 1.5 trillions aren't officially accurate, maybe much less.

I don't agree with you about global warming but not right thread to debate and it has already done.

so is propane. it's cleaner too. point is - "use the right tool for right job"

yes both propane and ethanol are great but they are not practical for large-scale use such as automobile because of tremendous amount of resource required to produce and transport and store these fuels. It is not practical and it is not a viable long-term solution.

Try Again!

 

[Babyblue]

Ethanol tends to draw water to your gas tank. I take that from experience.

 

[Foxrac]

The thing about oil shale is that the U.S. has more unconventional oil locked in the shale than the all of the oil in the Middle East by 2 to 3 times as much. We're talking about a trillion barrels of oil in those shales. You have to include tar sands as part of the unconventional oil of which we do have. Alberta Canada has a few trillions worth of barrel of oil locked up in tar sand where Canada is our number #1 oil importer. Still, as for shale oil, that's a lot of oil, son. It's called the Green River oil shale that is spread across the states of Utah, Wyoming and Colorado. If you *actually* do you research on the amount of potential oil (conventional and unconventional oil) the U.S. have, you'll realize how absolutely mind boggling it is and how easy it'd be to wean ourselves from imported oil.

Second thing you do not know. We spend about $500 billion dollars a year on imported oil with the bulk of the money going to Venezuela, Saudia Arabia, and Mexico. Why spend our money on imported oil from unstable and/or unfriendly countries when we already have easy access to our own oil here in the United States? We use our own oil. Keep the money here in the states. Help create jobs. Recirculate our money into our economy and so on. And while we do that we can continue, safely without worry about unstable countries affecting our oil prices, our quest for cleaner and readily available sources of energy. Heck, even Nancy Pelosi spouted the need for more natural gas as our source of energy but that requires drilling and natural gas is a secondary by-product of oil beneath us. Ooh, the irony of Pelosi lack of knowledge.

Thirdly, it's funny how people rant about oil but continue to drive their cars, fly the planes and ride the trains.

Oil shale does count to oil reserves like in Canada but much lower than in middle east and if your comment is true so US Should shown as large oil reserves but it doesn't happen. Oil shale has more negative impact on environment over conventional oil so I remember it and I don't think US is going to take everything with oil shale but rather to import more oil.

No, we aren't rant because we don't have choice, technology is limited so we have use oil and US doesn't learn the lesson from 30 years ago after oil price has driven up at this time. I don't care but I don't want oil price to become unstable because China and India use more oil now as price goes up in around world, so drilling oil isn't going help because oil is sold on market, unless US is going take oil on their own.

Oil companies does lobbied congress to delay of invest on other energy source or alternative oil until oil price went skyrocket in 2003 then everything is change.

If oil price is stable and cheap then I'm fine with it.

 

[Foxrac]

of course you're going to find ANY article that fits your assumption. I can even find an article that will support a person's view saying oil will cause World War 3 - Drifting Toward World War III. Not that I'm saying you're delusional but point is - Internet is a big place. There's incredibly amount of articles out there that lack proper background and basic knowledge. The sad part is.... all you have to do is write good and make it sounds convincing by adding exaggeration, hyperboles, and pictures/graph... and you're good.

The only way to gain some real knowledge is to have an education to understand the material or to obtain articles only from research/academic/library database.

maybe you might wanna get a source from something with substantial background and then take it with a grain of salt. At this kind of research - google is NOT your friend. Library is

There's A and B that we can agree with it, A is from speculation or much investment on commodities and B is from rapidly growing of ethanol for cars so blame on ethanol, I'm picked A over B because I can agree so more and none are fact either since it's heavily debate.

If ethanol is blamed so government should discontinue but it don't going be happen.

Edit, it's not my assumption because I had done with research so I agree with side due lacks of official source has put our opinion in behind.

 

[The Highlander]

exactly why it's not practical yet in here. Biodiesel does not work well in winter or cold season. Propane is a compressed gas. that's neither safe nor practical for widespread use in America.

I believe mostly large diesel engine should work fine for cold start without glow plug.

Europe have no problem with propane. Oh well.

 

[kokonut]

Oil is big impact on environment, of course.

Ethanol is more cleaner and less emission than gasoline, I do know about less MPG but only lose about 2-3 MPG, it's not much difference.

Oil shale isn't give everything what US need and US still has low oil reserves when compare to middle east, you are just support oil companies to lobbies like many conservative people does. Drilling oil wouldn't solve the problem because you still have buy oil for market price. Oil shale does work when oil price is higher and projection on 1.5 trillions aren't officially accurate, maybe much less.

I don't agree with you about global warming but not right thread to debate and it has already done.

To continue...

No, ethanol is NOT "more cleaner" and less emission than gasoline. What's more it takes energy to process the plants, move it, transport, convert it to ethanol, collection of ethanol and transport it to refueling stations. All requires coal, natural gas, diesel, and electricity to help make this happen. So, no, it's not "cleaner" in a wider sense. Secondly, adding ethanol *reduces* MPG in a car, which means you'd have to buy more of the E85 gasoline mix than just gasoline alone. Remember, the energy density of gasoline is 60% greater than ethanol which means you get more out of your gasoline than you would with ethanol when driving. Bottom line, you still have to depend on gasoline. Population continues to grow. More people will be buying more gasoline (and ethanol, too).

 

[Foxrac]

To continue...

No, ethanol is NOT "more cleaner" and less emission than gasoline. What's more it takes energy to process the plants, move it, transport, convert it to ethanol, collection of ethanol and transport it to refueling stations. All requires coal, natural gas, diesel, and electricity to help make this happen. So, no, it's not "cleaner" in a wider sense. Secondly, adding ethanol *reduces* MPG in a car, which means you'd have to buy more of the E85 gasoline mix than just gasoline alone. Remember, the energy density of gasoline is 60% greater than ethanol which means you get more out of your gasoline than you would with ethanol when driving. Bottom line, you still have to depend on gasoline. Population continues to grow. More people will be buying more gasoline (and ethanol, too).

I'm going to saying, that's your way to believe.

 

[Jiro]

I believe mostly large diesel engine should work fine for cold start without glow plug.

because majority of their time - they never turn it off. those truckers are constantly on move.

Europe have no problem with propane. Oh well.

What works for other country does not mean it will work in here. It's a completely different country with a different infrastructure and system. I would say Europe is more of a dependent type - we're more of self-sufficient and self-reliant type.

 

[Calvin]

To debate about ethanol or biodiesel, can discuss in another thread. This topic is about cash for clunkers.

Thanks.

 

[kokonut]

so is propane. it's cleaner too. point is - "use the right tool for right job"

yes both propane and ethanol are great but they are not practical for large-scale use such as automobile because of tremendous amount of resource required to produce and transport and store these fuels. It is not practical and it is not a viable long-term solution.

Try Again!

Propane is cleaner but the energy density is slightly better than ethanol but gasoline and diesel 's energy are still much higher than propane and are still way better in terms of getting the most bang for the buck when MPG is considered.

The only thing that would beat that would be a nuclear powered car, which was tried back in the 1950s. But the idea is coming back.
Not in Detroit: Cadillac World Thorium Fuel Concept — Autoblog

 

[Jiro]

I'm going to saying, that's your way to believe.

it's the fact. a simple economical and scientific fact. Tell me - how is ethanol obtained? processed? transported? stored? used?

I can easily tell you, along with substantial backing and testimonies from the experts, that the economical system of gasoline is a much better solution than ethanol. Millions of cars run on gasoline. It is logical and economical to focus on making a more efficient engine - like Honda vTech engine or GM's hybrid engine.

This whole ethanol craze is nothing but a sinister ploy by a bunch of greedy men (worse than oilmen) to profit at expense of Earth and poor countries like Mexico.

 

[kokonut]

Oil shale does count to oil reserves like in Canada but much lower than in middle east and if your comment is true so US Should shown as large oil reserves but it doesn't happen. Oil shale has more negative impact on environment over conventional oil so I remember it and I don't think US is going to take everything with oil shale but rather to import more oil.

No, we aren't rant because we don't have choice, technology is limited so we have use oil and US doesn't learn the lesson from 30 years ago after oil price has driven up at this time. I don't care but I don't want oil price to become unstable because China and India use more oil now as price goes up in around world, so drilling oil isn't going help because oil is sold on market, unless US is going take oil on their own.

Oil companies does lobbied congress to delay of invest on other energy source or alternative oil until oil price went skyrocket in 2003 then everything is change.

If oil price is stable and cheap then I'm fine with it.

If you want cheap oil then get the United States to stop buying imported oil from unstable and unfriendly countries! And invest and use our own oil here in the United States. Lord knows we have enough to last us a few hundred years.

You do not understand about shale oil. It's called Kerogen or "almost oil". The oil properties are nearly the same as conventional oil so there is no "negative impact" per se. It makes sense to use our own resources, whatever they may be, and be completely dependent on our own natural and renewable resources, including oil. We have enough. But this is about Congress and the White House have the power to control what people can or cannot use under the guise of "global warming" which is a big lie and myth and that man has nothing to do with it. We're puny creatures. Can't even stop hurricanes or tornados. No more than we can stop global warming (or cooling) from happening since it's a natural cycle.

 

[Jiro]

To debate about ethanol or biodiesel, can discuss in another thread. This topic is about cash for clunkers.

Thanks.

I believe we're on subject because this Cash for Clunkers is about people trading in GAS-GUZZLING cars for reliable, fuel-efficient cars. However - there is a dangerous misunderstanding and misconception involved in this kind of scheme regarding gas-guzzling and gas-saving concept. I think it's important to enlighten the background behind the whole "green car" stuff.

 

[kokonut]

it's the fact. a simple economical and scientific fact. Tell me - how is ethanol obtained? processed? transported? stored? used?

I can easily tell you, along with substantial backing and testimonies from the experts, that the economical system of gasoline is a much better solution than ethanol. Millions of cars run on gasoline. It is very logical and economical to focus on making a more efficient engine - like Honda vTech engine or GM's hybrid engine.

This whole ethanol craze is nothing but a sinister ploy by a bunch of greedy men (worse than oilmen) to profit at expense of Earth and poor countries like Mexico.

Don't forget Brazil, too, in my earlier link on how they use slavery to collect sugar cane to help make ethanol.

 

[Foxrac]

it's the fact. a simple economical and scientific fact. Tell me - how is ethanol obtained? processed? transported? stored? used?

I can easily tell you, along with substantial backing and testimonies from the experts, that the economical system of gasoline is a much better solution than ethanol. Millions of cars run on gasoline. It is logical and economical to focus on making a more efficient engine - like Honda vTech engine or GM's hybrid engine.

This whole ethanol craze is nothing but a sinister ploy by a bunch of greedy men (worse than oilmen) to profit at expense of Earth and poor countries like Mexico.

Some people will going say different way and I'm going find out in later.

Don't expect me if I agree with you.

 

[Jiro]

Some people will going say different way and I"m going find out in later.

make sure their background carries some weight

Don't expect me if I agree with you.

I never and don't expect you to agree with me but I expect you to know your stuff.