Can children distinguish early on...

[CSign]

yet for the children I was "deaf", and for myself I just KNEW I wasn't the same as everybody else I FELT deaf, despite of my upbringing.
I got my first HA when I was 12.

I just knew I am deaf because clearly i couldn't hear well, period.


So, I am beginning to think it is in fact possible for a very young child to identify with a certain culture even if the child is not aware of the implications of what this culture really means/is.
And thus, I believe now that Miss GrendelQ child, does in fact may be instinctively aware she is deaf
and instinctively pull toward deaf culture, with
or without any encouragement from outside, although it does help to have
one.
Fuzzy

This.
Fuzzy is clearly stating that she began the process of understanding she was deaf at a young age, although didn't understand the intricacies of it. She is stating that she is beginning to believe that children are "instinctively aware" they are deaf, and that it's a natural pull towards Deaf Culture.

That is what I've tried to say, as well as Grendel. Sure, a 5 year old doesn't grasp it on the deepest level. They are capable of recognizing and understanding some of the differences. A young deaf child at the age of 5 is beginning to develop and establish their identity.

 

[CSign]

Of course that is what I am saying. Only someone looking to start an argument with me would think anything else.:roll:

I'm interested in participating in a productive dialogue. As I've stated before, arguments and fights are not on my priority list.

 

[jillio]

This.

Fuzzy is clearly stating that she began the process of realizing she was deaf at a young age, although didn't understand the intricacies of it. She is stating that she is beginning to believe that children are "instinctively aware" they are deaf, and that it's a natural pull towards Deaf Culture.

That is what I've tried to say, as well as Grendel. Sure, a 5 year old doesn't grasp it on the deepest level. They are capable of recognizing and understanding some of the differences. A young deaf child at the age of 5 is beginning to develop and establish their identity.

Duh. This is what we are saying. A child can realize they are deaf and are different at that age. A child cannot develop an identity as Deaf, or as anything else at the age of 5. A young child cannot think in the ways necessary, nor comprehend the abstract concepts necessary, to make a choice to identify as anything that involves anything more specific.

So, what exactly is it that you are arguing? Grendel was specific. She was saying that her 5 year old identified as Deaf. We are saying that is not possible because she is a 5 year old child. If she states that she is deaf, it is because she has been told she is deaf, and not because she has understood and embraced the intracate implications of belonging to Deaf Culture.

 

[jillio]

I'm interested in participating in a productive dialogue. As I've stated before, arguments and fights are not on my priority list.

Then you would do well to stop attempting to start them.

 

[shel90]

This.
Fuzzy is clearly stating that she began the process of understanding she was deaf at a young age, although didn't understand the intricacies of it. She is stating that she is beginning to believe that children are "instinctively aware" they are deaf, and that it's a natural pull towards Deaf Culture.

That is what I've tried to say, as well as Grendel. Sure, a 5 year old doesn't grasp it on the deepest level. They are capable of recognizing and understanding some of the differences. A young deaf child at the age of 5 is beginning to develop and establish their identity.

Yes, Jillio agreed with Fuzzy about understanding that she is deaf. That is where I got confused with how Jillio discredited Fuzzy's experience.

 

[jillio]

Yes, Jillio agreed with Fuzzy about understanding that she is deaf. That is where I got confused with how Jillio discredited Fuzzy's experience.

It confused me, too. The only thing I can think of is that someone doesn't understand when I say that a child can say they are deaf, and know they are deaf, but still not be capable of identifying as Deaf. Identifying, as in giving a name to something (deaf) is an entirely different concept than identifying as something (Deaf).

 

[shel90]

It confused me, too. The only thing I can think of is that someone doesn't understand when I say that a child can say they are deaf, and know they are deaf, but still not be capable of identifying as Deaf. Identifying, as in giving a name to something (deaf) is an entirely different concept than identifying as something (Deaf).

That's why I emphasized deaf as the medical model and Deaf as the cultural model.

 

[CSign]

Duh. This is what we are saying. A child can realize they are deaf and are different at that age. A child cannot develop an identity as Deaf, or as anything else at the age of 5. A young child cannot think in the ways necessary, nor comprehend the abstract concepts necessary, to make a choice to identify as anything that involves anything more specific.

So, what exactly is it that you are arguing? Grendel was specific. She was saying that her 5 year old identified as Deaf. We are saying that is not possible because she is a 5 year old child. If she states that she is deaf, it is because she has been told she is deaf, and not because she has understood and embraced the intracate implications of belonging to Deaf Culture.

I am saying that a child begins the process of forming their identity at a young age. "Discovering" who you are is a process that starts young, and often continues developing well into adulthood. "Cultural identity", or "individual identity" is an ongoing process- not something that happens overnight.

 

[CSign]

I should add that even "elderly" people still have an evolving identity. It's an ongoing pursuit.

 

[jillio]

That's why I emphasized deaf as the medical model and Deaf as the cultural model.

And therein lies the biggest difference. The other one is in identifying a condition (deafness) by naming it, and developing a personal identity as Deaf are two very different things.

 

[jillio]

I am saying that a child begins the process of forming their identity at a young age. "Discovering" who you are is a process that starts young, and often continues developing well into adulthood. "Cultural identity", or "individual identity" is an ongoing process- not something that happens overnight.

Not at the age of 5. They begin to develop a personal identity in the teen years.

Let me try it this way: Labeling yourself as in deaf is a statement about WHAT you are. Labeling yourself as Deaf is a statement about WHO you are. They require very different cognitive processes and emotional maturity levels.

 

[CrzyMeg]

i didnt find my identity until well recently. Not all of us find it early age. Some dont find it until later.

 

[Audiofuzzy]

A child cannot develop an identity as Deaf, or as anything else at the age of 5

First of all I apologize in advance if I won't make a lot of sense but it's late, I have migraine and am very sleepy - will fix it some time later if needed.

What I am exactly trying to say that a child can instinctively get
a sense of belonging to a certain group - somebody who is like
she or he deaf,

because if a child as young as 5 can clearly see
that they are at some fundamental level different than they hearing peers,
even if they are repeatedly being told that "okay, you can't hear but you are no different than everybody else",

are being mainstreamed in every way
have hearing non signing parents, grands, relatives, friends,
and yet they still strongly see herself/himself as deaf at already such
young age,

also, if despite having strong bonds with their hearing family/friends -
the child still pulls toward other deaf rather- then I think we can say it does have a sense of Deaf.

because what is a "certain group of pple" if not community,
thus a seed of culture from here?

The only catch - the child is too small to understand the implication of what does it all really mean.
But I think the vague sense of Deaf, it is here. It could be.

You make a mistake, Jillio, of being sure on a matter that can not be measured as a there is no surefire way to measure this.

After all, the only way to know for sure this is to be 5 y.o again - and it's impossible, at least as of yet.

I used to make the same assumption, that science is mighty and infallible.

The science is great, I am not saying it isn't, and yes we need to obey by it's guidelines or it will be anarchy otherwise,
but let not follow it so blindly always.

Life showed us that science is not always 100% right.

Deaf can be musicians, blind can paint, legless ski, etc.

By the same token, perhaps once in a while a 5 yo does have an instinctual sense of being Deaf, who knows...

Fuzzy

 

[Berry]

A 5 year old has not even begun to explore identity yet. They simply are not developmentally capable. Just being able to define, in a limited way, "Christian" or "White" is not identity development. A child is simply repeating what they have been told about themselves. It is not the process of discovery and choice that is tied to identity.

Okay, I was raised in a theo - philosophical system that is not standard American white practice.

From an early age I was taught that Identity, simply defined as "Sense Of Self" was important as it is tied with your inner spiritual nature. That is, the stronger your sense of self, and who you are, the stronger your spiritual self.

This is one reason why the white man was considered by some "The Stealer of Souls".

The white man wanted Native Americans to merge their identities with that of a group, church, etc. To accept group beliefs, group wisdom, and believe in conformity to the truth others promulgated. For some tribes this was the exact opposite of their core beliefs.

 

[jillio]

First of all I apologize in advance if I won't make a lot of sense but it's late, I have migraine and am very sleepy - will fix it some time later if needed.

What I am exactly trying to say that a child can instinctively get
a sense of belonging to a certain group - somebody who is like
she or he deaf,

because if a child as young as 5 can clearly see
that they are at some fundamental level different than they hearing peers,
even if they are repeatedly being told that "okay, you can't hear but you are no different than everybody else",

are being mainstreamed in every way
have hearing non signing parents, grands, relatives, friends,
and yet they still strongly see herself/himself as deaf at already such
young age,

also, if despite having strong bonds with their hearing family/friends -
the child still pulls toward other deaf rather- then I think we can say it does have a sense of Deaf.

because what is a "certain group of pple" if not community,
thus a seed of culture from here?

The only catch - the child is too small to understand the implication of what does it all really mean.
But I think the vague sense of Deaf, it is here. It could be.

You make a mistake, Jillio, of being sure on a matter that can not be measured as a there is no surefire way to measure this.

After all, the only way to know for sure this is to be 5 y.o again - and it's impossible, at least as of yet.

I used to make the same assumption, that science is mighty and infallible.

The science is great, I am not saying it isn't, and yes we need to obey by it's guidelines or it will be anarchy otherwise,
but let not follow it so blindly always.

Life showed us that science is not always 100% right.

Deaf can be musicians, blind can paint, legless ski, etc.

By the same token, perhaps once in a while a 5 yo does have an instinctual sense of being Deaf, who knows...

Fuzzy

Agreed. A child does recognize sameness in others, generally based on outsie characteristics, however, which would be the same as the realization that they are deaf. "Deaf Like Me" is an excellent illustration of that occurring with a child. I know my own son had instances like that happen. But it is still just a matter of recognition of deafness, and not a personal identity of Deaf.

No, Fuzzy, it can be measured, and has been measured with specific research methods for over 100 years. Child development is a specific science. It is based on both biology and psychology. A child who does not have the brain development necessary to be able to process information at a higher level of thinking simply cannot grasp the meaning of something as complicated as a chosen ID of Deafness. Add to that their lack of life experience and psychological factors, and the chance is even slimmer. I still say that a child of 5 can recognize that they are deaf because they have been told they are deaf. They do not even recognize all of the implications of deafness at this point, let alone a personal identity of Deaf. A Latino child knows they are Latino because they have been told they are. The culture surrounds them on a daily basis, as in Deaf of Deaf. Yet they are still not capable of deciding that they will embrace that culture in their fundamental idea of who they are. At this point, they only know it as a "what", not as a "who". Incorprorating culture into your identity cannot be done without the "who".

Being drawn toward others in the same circumstances, as all human beings are, is still not an indication of the cultural identity of Deafness. It is a way to explore before deciding if that identity is who one is. We see that all the time on this forum, even from adults.

Perhaps, once in a while a fish can fly. Is it probable that it is something you will see on a daily basis, or even more than once, if that, in several lifetimes? No, it isn't. Every so often, there is a child of 5 with a genious level IQ that has indepth understanding of the Theory of Relativity, as well. Does it happen all the time? No, it does not. So that one is not even to be compared to the usual state of mind of a 5 year old, even a precocious 5 year old.

 

[jillio]

Okay, I was raised in a theo - philosophical system that is not standard American white practice.

From an early age I was taught that Identity, simply defined as "Sense Of Self" was important as it is tied with your inner spiritual nature. That is, the stronger your sense of self, and who you are, the stronger your spiritual self.

This is one reason why the white man was considered by some "The Stealer of Souls".

The white man wanted Native Americans to merge their identities with that of a group, church, etc. To accept group beliefs, group wisdom, and believe in conformity to the truth others promulgated. For some tribes this was the exact opposite of their core beliefs.

Agreed. And that is the way culture is transmitted from generation to generation. As I said in another thread on this topic, that type of transmission and identity are passed from parent and elders to child, and can be accomplished in a Deaf of Deaf environment. However, it cannot be accomplished in a Deaf of Hearing environment because historical transmission as a part of daily life is not possible. The only exception would be the Deaf of CODA child, and only when the hearing CODA is embracing the Deaf culture in their own life.

Likewise, sense of self becomes stronger and more specific as a child becomes developmentally able to understand all of the implications therein of making culture a defining part of that sense of self.

 

[Speedy Hawk]

I didn't know what kind of job that my brother had because my parents got upset I couldn't understand what they were saying to me till he got married. And I found this out from the newspaper - not the family.

That so similar to me with my uncle job. When I was growing up my uncle always buy me fireman stuff like towels, money bank, toys, etc, I thought he got them cos I like fireman stuff. I never knew he was fireman until last year through newspaper! Now I know why he got me so many fireman theme stuff. My parents couldn't explain to me properly cos of communication barrier.

 

[AlleyCat]

I firmly don't believe a young child can figure out a Deaf identity. That child can distinguish that they're "different" somehow, but not in a cultural "Deaf" sense. I've already said it myself, with examples, in other posts. I was probably well into my 30's before I realized it myself. Up until then, I knew I was not hearing, that I was at, the very least, deaf (note the lowercase d), communicated in sign language except for when at work (I worked -- still do) for large corporations where there's no other d/Deaf). It wasn't until several years back when I started spending lots of time at the d/Deaf club that I started to realize a difference. This was home.

 

[CSign]

That so similar to me with my uncle job. When I was growing up my uncle always buy me fireman stuff like towels, money bank, toys, etc, I thought he got them cos I like fireman stuff. I never knew he was fireman until last year through newspaper! Now I know why he got me so many fireman theme stuff. My parents couldn't explain to me properly cos of communication barrier.

Stories like that, and the one DeafSkeptic shared break my heart. It's very sad to me when parents don't take the time to include their children in what's going on around them. I think these stories are good reminders to parents who may not be consistently using sign, to remember the importance of it. Also a reminder to make a point of talking with your children, to ensure that they received the information that's being shared.

 

[Speedy Hawk]

Stories like that, and the one DeafSkeptic shared break my heart. It's very sad to me when parents don't take the time to include their children in what's going on around them. I think these stories are good reminders to parents who may not be consistently using sign, to remember the importance of it. Also a reminder to make a point of talking with your children, to ensure that they received the information that's being shared.

Parents and hearing children take information for granted and think nothing of it. But us deaf people information is important to get know what going on even it is boring. It just access. We only need access to information same as hearing children.