C.i?

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Originally posted by deafdyke
[Most Deaf Children? You must be reading flawed b.s.
"Research".. POST it here, then we can see/QUOTE]
Taz, I am neutral on CI but on the other hand you could also have biased research. The plain fact of the matter is that oralism is a BIG business. If oralists can produce "convincing" evidence that it works, then they get tons of money, from desperate parents who want their kids to be "normal"
There's a reason why AGBell has a big fancy magazine whereas ASFDC(American Society for Deaf Children) just has a plain old newsletter!
It's about MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most members of AGBell are hyperdriven yuppies whose children would be sucessful even if they did ASL only!
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I think the "oral" method as we know it is fading away, fast. CI's are in the picture now,and much less lipreading is needed.

I could be considered Oral, by the way I act, and yet I have good language skills.

Yes you are right, in that many oral deaf have language skill problems... I've seen a few. But then again, some do ok.

You must love the yuppie word. :)

Brenden
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deafdyke,

I would like to see some of the research papers (or any other types of proof) to support what you have and are still claiming.
 
[I think the "oral" method as we know it is fading away, fast. CI's are in the picture now,and much less lipreading is needed.

I could be considered Oral, by the way I act, and yet I have good language skills.

Yes you are right, in that many oral deaf have language skill problems... I've seen a few. But then again, some do ok.
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Why are people so obsessed with not lip/speechreading?
EVERYONE speechreads....even hearing people who are very aural speechread!!!!!! Think of all the hearing people who grew up thinking that "and Betty when you call me, you can call me Al" was ..."And Eddie when you call me, you can call MEOW!" until they read the lyrics. (as well as "Scuse me while I kiss this guy" and plenty of other examples too numorus to count) Think about playing Telephone where I love rock n' roll turns into sex with a pig.
I remember one time at school I was in the lounge of my dorm with some of my friends. I started walking to the Tec-Key entrance of my dorm and passed my friend McInnis. I said "Hi McInnis". Another one of my friends Di,(who is hearing...actually most of my friends at school are hearing) who was a few feet away from us looked at me and said " Deafdyke, Who's Erin? That's McInnis."
That's wonderful that you have good English language skills. I did not say that everyone who is Oral doesn't develop good language skills, but many of them have issues with the English language. I grew up primarly oral and English language skills have always been a strong area for me.
My Verbal IQ is wicked high and I got 660 on the Verbal section of my SATs.
 
People don't speechread while listening to the radio, so you are incorrect.

If you said some of the time yes.. probably. But all the time? no.
 
(off topic).. For my opinion that shouldn't crictize deafies what they are or what they learned..
They should have point out at their school the ones who they grew up in.. and taught ASL, PSE, Oral, and more...
We can't help who we are.. :D
 
People don't speechread while listening to the radio, so you are incorrect
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Taz, I never said that hearing people read lips all of the time. However most of the time they DO read lips. Besides most people on the radio have been trained in articulation and enunciation skills, so their pure speech is very easy to understand. They tend to have professional speaker voices which makes their voices very easy to understand. That said there is still room for error. Did you read the part of my post about "Scuse me while I kiss this guy?"
Besides who even gives a scatalogical noun about the radio?
There's nothing on it but crap......can we say horrible music and Rush Limbaugh?
 
Originally posted by SilenceGold
deafdyke,

I would like to see some of the research papers (or any other types of proof) to support what you have and are still claiming.
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*BUMP*
 
Misinformation? Please clarify that, taz. Right now, it seems to me that you just plain don't like how others are voicing their opinions and are trying to make an ass out of them. What's wrong with people having diverse views? Is it possible to simply disagree with them directly, without invaliding their opinions with "misinformation," ? But then again, I probably didn't understand what you meant by using the word misinformation, so feel free to clarify that by all means. :D

It's great having discussion forums like these... giving us an opportunity to agree, disagree, whatever, and make your points, and being willing to hear others out.

deafdyke, what research are you talking about? Can you be clear about its sources? I can see your point about ASL being more convenient and more visual to use for a deaf person. Just think how it could be hard for a hearing person or an oral deaf to learn ASL because they were raised to think with spoken words, and I dunno about that being visual either. It comes down to this - 2 different worlds, and that aint bad just different :D I just have to laugh at the illusion of separation that the childhood/peer programming gives us along with some cultural traits (ie. I'm right, you're wrong. If it works for me, then it WORKS for you.. so shut up!)

Strip off ASL, CI, HAs, speech, and any other cultural traits/programming.... who are we? Have you forgotten that? I see "that" being the common thread we all share as human beings and souls. :) Just my thoughts, feel free to drop what doesn't resonate with you.
 
Liza,
I mean misinformation in exaggerating stories or bringing false stories for the purpose of discrediting.

I've seem some from DeafAlwayzRawks.. and all. I am not putting down opinions.

I'm against misinformation and rumors (of which many of those so-called opinions were based on!!!) So I do have a right to test those opinions..

For example someone said that you can't swim with the CI so he wouldn't get one. That was an opinion, and so I have to discredit that misinformation by saying nooo you can swim. Things like that do merit being shot down...

For example, ShieldTalisman said:

The children, what about them? Eye sight are WAY different than CI. CI u implant something to the brain area. The eyes are being operated on to get it better, that is it. What if the child got into car accident with the parents but the child have to be operated or be in MRI/X-RAYS type of shit to check out something but parents died. How they get the record that fast? The kid is dying right front of doctor's face and theres only way to keep the child alive if they do it immediately. But have to go though operation again to get CI out and then save their life afterward. Just think about RISK in their later on life. I consider it no because I am going to allow my kid grow up and make choice on their own. Their money and their insurance. I am not going to waste my money on the kid who has to go though near-death experiences or they just dont wanted 1.


Notice she thinks it's implanted in the brain area? Wrong! Misinformation there. She says have to go through operation to take CI out before MRI -- Not true for Nucleus. The Nucleus 24c can take a small magnet out in 1 min after cutting just a little slice of skin and popping the magnet out. For other implants, tough crap. However, you don't die from implants -- they simply break or are rendered useless. You are just implanting it under the skin, and above the bone. It is going nowhere near the brain.

And she's all worried about risks. There are far greater risks than a CI.. MILLIONS of other risks far greater than a CI including walking across the street and getting hit by a car! That is where misinformation has been played in her head, and she's spreading it here!

Admit it, any deaf will use any snippet of information to gather and use CI even if it may not be true!

People who have CI's and actually got the right information and all are the ones who best know how it really goes.. really. I am sorry if the thing "was forced" or whatever, but apparently they did not bring you up in the hearing world adaptation else you would not be here... right? Most parents are doing this nowadays so the point of "let the child decide" is utter bullshit.

You decide if you fix a kid's broken kneecap or not, you also get to decide about the ear or the eye. No discussion.

Brenden



Brenden
 
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Taz, Just wanted to clarify something....I am not nessarily against auditory training. Even those of us who use speechreading as a "crutch"(according to A-V philosophy) use our residual hearing.
I know I read somewhere that Ling's theroies are based on shoddy science. (and no...it was not in a Harlan Lane book)
I'll get back to you on this.
 
Originally posted by tAzMaNiAc
Liza,
I mean misinformation in exaggerating stories or bringing false stories for the purpose of discrediting.

I've seem some from DeafAlwayzRawks.. and all. I am not putting down opinions.

I'm against misinformation and rumors (of which many of those so-called opinions were based on!!!) So I do have a right to test those opinions..

For example someone said that you can't swim with the CI so he wouldn't get one. That was an opinion, and so I have to discredit that misinformation by saying nooo you can swim. Things like that do merit being shot down...

For example, ShieldTalisman said:

The children, what about them? Eye sight are WAY different than CI. CI u implant something to the brain area. The eyes are being operated on to get it better, that is it. What if the child got into car accident with the parents but the child have to be operated or be in MRI/X-RAYS type of shit to check out something but parents died. How they get the record that fast? The kid is dying right front of doctor's face and theres only way to keep the child alive if they do it immediately. But have to go though operation again to get CI out and then save their life afterward. Just think about RISK in their later on life. I consider it no because I am going to allow my kid grow up and make choice on their own. Their money and their insurance. I am not going to waste my money on the kid who has to go though near-death experiences or they just dont wanted 1.


Notice she thinks it's implanted in the brain area? Wrong! Misinformation there. She says have to go through operation to take CI out before MRI -- Not true for Nucleus. The Nucleus 24c can take a small magnet out in 1 min after cutting just a little slice of skin and popping the magnet out. For other implants, tough crap. However, you don't die from implants -- they simply break or are rendered useless. You are just implanting it under the skin, and above the bone. It is going nowhere near the brain.

And she's all worried about risks. There are far greater risks than a CI.. MILLIONS of other risks far greater than a CI including walking across the street and getting hit by a car! That is where misinformation has been played in her head, and she's spreading it here!

Admit it, any deaf will use any snippet of information to gather and use CI even if it may not be true!

People who have CI's and actually got the right information and all are the ones who best know how it really goes.. really. I am sorry if the thing "was forced" or whatever, but apparently they did not bring you up in the hearing world adaptation else you would not be here... right? Most parents are doing this nowadays so the point of "let the child decide" is utter bullshit.

You decide if you fix a kid's broken kneecap or not, you also get to decide about the ear or the eye. No discussion.

Brenden



Brenden
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You've said that a lot better than what I tried to get my point across.

There's too many opinions being explained to be labeled as facts. That's why I have asked for deafdyke's sources. It is difficult to believe someone who makes many claims who even haven't provided sources of her information. :(

That is one of the major reasons I am glad that hearing parents, with a deaf child, listen to audiologists and other trained professionals instead of all this Deaf's propaganda.

Deafdyke, before you share any more of your experiences or claims. I would like to hear some of your sources or know if you are a certificated professional in any of the debating fields that we have discussed about in this thread. If you cannot share any of those sources or prove with something to back up what you are saying...please stop spreading the propaganda and stick with the facts. :D
 
Originally posted by deafdyke
Taz, Just wanted to clarify something....I am not nessarily against auditory training. Even those of us who use speechreading as a "crutch"(according to A-V philosophy) use our residual hearing.
I know I read somewhere that Ling's theroies are based on shoddy science. (and no...it was not in a Harlan Lane book)
I'll get back to you on this.
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Ok.

I do still do speechreading, and probably will never completely let go of it. It's been in my head for what, the past 28 years..

But I want to work towards minimizing the need to do it all the time.

:D

Brenden
 
Originally posted by SilenceGold
You've said that a lot better than what I tried to get my point across.

There's too many opinions being explained to be labeled as facts. That's why I have asked for deafdyke's sources. It is difficult to believe someone who makes many claims who even haven't provided sources of her information. :(

That is one of the major reasons I am glad that hearing parents, with a deaf child, listen to audiologists and other trained professionals instead of all this Deaf's propaganda.
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Thanks :D I know some people will still block the facts and all, but at least we try.
 
I do still do speechreading, and probably will never completely let go of it. It's been in my head for what, the past 28 years..

But I want to work towards minimizing the need to do it all the time.
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Yes, but why? Even hearing people speechread for crying out loud! They just do it unconsciously. I mean I attended a hearing school, and at assembles and stuff sometimes the presenter would say (not realizing that there was a deaf kid in the audience..."You speechread more then you think you do." I speechread and have been consistantly tested as being an AURAL learner! (bear in mind that I was born deaf with a 70 dcb loss)
 
Oh yes...hearing is not a stand-alone sense. It works along with other senses to create "hearing" It's like...a certain percentage of what you think you taste you actually smell. A certain percentage of what you hear, you actually speechread!
There's also the fact that a lot of sounds that you think you hear, you actually feel. I remember reading an article over on the Gally University website that said that audiograms are frequently inaccurate as it doesn't discount the fact that you might be able to feel sounds like in your esophougus.
You want to develop hearing fully? FABLOUS! First have everyone wear a huge buqua or ski masks so you can't see their faces to speechread....or even better.....get your eyes removed so you can never ever speechread again! Then have a doctor short circut your nervous system so you can't feel vibrations and cheat on developing hearing. After all...sacasm hearing people don't read lips! We can't depend on the crutch of speechreading and feeling vibrations can we?
 
Originally posted by deafdyke
Oh yes...hearing is not a stand-alone sense. It works along with other senses to create "hearing" It's like...a certain percentage of what you think you taste you actually smell. A certain percentage of what you hear, you actually speechread!
There's also the fact that a lot of sounds that you think you hear, you actually feel. I remember reading an article over on the Gally University website that said that audiograms are frequently inaccurate as it doesn't discount the fact that you might be able to feel sounds like in your esophougus.
You want to develop hearing fully? FABLOUS! First have everyone wear a huge buqua or ski masks so you can't see their faces to speechread....or even better.....get your eyes removed so you can never ever speechread again! Then have a doctor short circut your nervous system so you can't feel vibrations and cheat on developing hearing. After all...sacasm hearing people don't read lips! We can't depend on the crutch of speechreading and feeling vibrations can we?
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If you are trying to point out a point that all humans use their own senses in a combination to interact with their surrounding, quit reinventing it. :p

You still aren't making any senses in all of your posts. You're just standing by what your opinions are supporting. You are not even taking in anyone else's opinions regardless of how different your opinions. So far, you're just full of it.

This will be my last post here in this thread because of deafdyke's propaganda.
 
Originally posted by DeafAlwAyZRawKs
theres nothing wrong w/ speech and lipreading..
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Nothing wrong with it I agree.. BUT I am one of many who hate to have to intently concentrate at a person's face 100% and use guesswork.

One would be bullshitting if they said lipreading doesn't use guesswork (and i hate that part) :-D

Brenden
 
Originally posted by deafdyke
Yes, but why? Even hearing people speechread for crying out loud! They just do it unconsciously. I mean I attended a hearing school, and at assembles and stuff sometimes the presenter would say (not realizing that there was a deaf kid in the audience..."You speechread more then you think you do." I speechread and have been consistantly tested as being an AURAL learner! (bear in mind that I was born deaf with a 70 dcb loss)
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Ok whatever! I'm an aural learner too by definition, but I still don't think it's speechreading all the time, sorry.

Try:

The Phone
The Radio
The Cell Phone
Speakers above the ground (i.e. Stadium)


Of course, I'm sure hearing people attempt to speechread if hearing conditions are poor (i.e. very loud noises, etc)
But it is NOT all the time.

Brenden
 
If I had a Deaf child I would NEVER let anyone perform a serious surgery on a perfectly healthy child. Now, if my child turned 18 and relaly wanted it, I would do everything I could to help financially and support him or her in any way possible.
 
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