C.i?

[SilenceGold]

Originally posted by deafdyke
Nope, that is inaccurate. If it were true, then the average reading and writing levels of all deaf and hoh people would be a lot higher. The reading and writing levels of ALL deaf and hoh people are at a 4th grade level(not just ASL users!) . Let's take an AllDeaf example to illustrate what I mean. (note to mods I am NOT picking on these people..... I'm just using them as an example)

Oh my fucking god. You just proved yourself as an inadequate speaker.

I am profound deaf. I had my CI when I was 14 years old. Now explain to me why I took some tests and achieved a 6th grade writing language level while I was only in 3rd grade. You said "ALL deaf and hoh people are at 4th grade level(not just ASL users!)."

I graduated with GED as reading and writing at 12th grade level. Even there were comments that I achieved college writing level but not reading.

HELLO, I'm deaf! And you said that I should have 4th grade reading/writing level. Go and get a life by reading the facts. Stop making it up. You can't even verify your sources.

Look at the written language of BabyPhat (who is strong oral and who has even attended an oral school) Her written language is just OK...not saying it's not good but it's not exactly something that would be seen in an Honors English class or even a mainstream average level class.Her vocabulary is not that sophisticated, and there are numorous syntaxial and grammartical errors seen that are simlair to "Deaf" grammar and syntax errors. Compare her written language to the written language of allisonjoy or teddy. (both of whom use ASL as their primary language) Their written English expression is EXTREMELY good, with only an occasional grammar/syntax error, simlair to what would be seen in a mainstream average English class.

Ok, I dare you to poke and pick at my grammars. I will post several of my business letters that I have published. I will prove you that I will not have anything worse than the 12th grade writing level.

If you want to criticize my posts at alldeaf.com, suit yourself. It won't change what the facts are. I didn't even bother to proofread or even correct most of my spelling and grammar errors.

Oral deaf people tend to have good speech (pronounciation, articulation, clarity, pitch, volume etc) but not have a really good grasp on the langauage itself. Sort of like.....a hearing person might be able to pronounce things really well in French but only have the language mastery of a French 2nd or 4th grader. (in English terms that would mean that the person was using vocab/syntax/ grammar/sentance complexity like that found in Captain Underpants whereas a native of English would be reading Stephen King or even academic tomes like Backlash or stuff that makes William Safire look like Captain Underpants!
My speech is decent but my language is even better!
That's b/c my parents didn't spend thousands of hours and years on a "pwetty wittle voice" They understand that what I say is more important then HOW I say it! Do you understand now?

What I understand is...your sources are incorrect. I'll like for you to prove it by posting few of urls stating what you are saying are true.

Your language can't be better than 4th grade level. Why? Because you said it yourself.

 

[Kalista]

I really hate to debate in this thread.... I have been emoitional and furious with hearing professional during my College year. I had an interview those people in Boston Children Hospitial, Deaf School, Deaf children, etc. etc...

I think, this medical society is more pressure on the Parents to be ambivalence themselves. What is the best for their Deaf children?

Netrox:

What rights do children have?

Do they have the right to eat anything they want?

Do they have the right to drive?

Do they have the right NOT go to school?

It goes on and on.

It's your right to decide what you think is BEST for your child, not what the child thinks is best!

Think about giving a good healthy innocent adorable Deaf babies in this earth. Why would the parents take their true identifies away as Deafness?? Why can't they accept for who they are ?

From my perspective FDA did not receive fully honest report from Deaf Toddler/adolescents who are suffering headache, fluid leak, and dizzy due to not able to communication. At 18 months old Deaf children will tell us the specification how they feel due to suffer and painful??

I am trying to prevent those innocence deaf adolescent to get their implants. Why would the parents bother with those scar and drill on their healthy skulls. Why can’t they learn ASL to communication with their deaf children? Why do the hearing parents are not accepting for who they are? The parents decide themselves to change their Deaf children’s bodies. Deaf is not a disease to be cure.

I am against CI to those such younger Deaf children. I did rather to see those Deaf adults to make their own decision like you, Boult, Wendy, Taz, Garfield and few others. I do respect their wishes because they are adults. It is their bodies !

sorry.. I disagree with your perspective. Netrox...

I did not want to continue this debate until I die. I have enough of this for years and years in other forum and this. I did rather close my eyes with more less angry and emotional to see those beautiful innocent Deaf children into this world.

I personally have meet you Netrox. I admire you alot what you have been couregeous yourself at NAD Conference. Otherwise, I do still disagree with your opinion for those young Deaf infants.

I did not want to talk about Cochlear Implant issues now. I do not need any of their pity. I just fed up being oppressive and frustration. Why can't they learn ASL to socialize with deaf people then?? I keep fighting for my rights to treat equal as hearing people. Deaf people are not second citizen class. Tell me why can't I get a promotion job? I do have over 60 credits from College. Some of those hearing people do not have any College credits. Is that fair ? Should I get my cochlear implant to speak better " Fuck You" real loud ?? NO THANKS !

Those children can't speak for themselves. How could the parents control them ? Netrox

Sorry to hear Silence Gold, it does not work for you. As long as you have a good healthy and happy for who you are.

Regards,

Sabrina

P.S. We will be waiting and seeing how the Deaf children react to their cochlear implants when they become 18 or 20 years old. Will they thankful to their parents or NOT ??

 

[deafdyke]

Silence Gold you misread my post. I did not mean to say that every single deaf/hoh person has a 4th grade reading level. What I meant to say was that the 4th grade average is a constant, irregardless of commuication. That doesn't mean that ALL deaf and hoh people have such poor reading levels, it just means that the 4th grade average is seen whether the deaf/hoh person is oral or sign or uses Cued Speech. There are some populations and some deaf/hoh people who read very well....however the majority of deaf/hoh do not have good reading levels.

 

[SilenceGold]

Originally posted by deafdyke
Silence Gold you misread my post. I did not mean to say that every single deaf/hoh person has a 4th grade reading level. What I meant to say was that the 4th grade average is a constant, irregardless of commuication. That doesn't mean that ALL deaf and hoh people have such poor reading levels, it just means that the 4th grade average is seen whether the deaf/hoh person is oral or sign or uses Cued Speech. There are some populations and some deaf/hoh people who read very well....however the majority of deaf/hoh do not have good reading levels.

Okay, I apologize for the outburst because I misread you. Forgive my debate with you.

One of the facts is that a child with normal hearing will have a vocabulary of 5,000 to 26,000 words. At the same age, a deaf child will have a vocabulary of only about 200 spoken or signed words. The fact that American Sign Language has no written form is one reason that the average 16-year-old who relies on sign language reads at the third- or fourth-grade level.

Oralists/Mainstreamed students does not always rely on American Sign Language. SEE/PSE or using no type of sign languages are part of the factors that are contributed to improve those Oralists/Mainstramed students' writing/reading skills.

You would be correct that majority of deaf people in the Deaf Culture who relies on ASL would have very low writing/reading skills.

However, majority of mainstreamed deaf people who relies on either oral skills or a form of sign language which uses English's structures would have higher writing and reading skills compared to those Deaf culture people.

Now the arguement begans on....Which high majority of people, at age of 14 to 18 years old, are in either mainstream or one of the state sponsored Deaf schools?

Now, how does the CI come in the play to improve writing and reading skills? If a child got a CI, it would be high likely that this child would rely less on ASL. Remember that ASL is an important factor contributing to decisions of the writing and reading skilled rank.

 

[kuifje75]

Going off topic, aren't we?
I do not believe that knowing just ASL may be the reason for low level of English. I know many deaf friends of mine who are children of deaf parents, who turn out to have beautiful English. Look at some members here, such as Freaky and AllisonJoy. They are good examples of why it doesn't matter what language is being used. What matters most is if the teachers actually did their jobs and teach the kids right.

 

[SilenceGold]

Originally posted by kuifje75
Going off topic, aren't we?
I do not believe that knowing just ASL may be the reason for low level of English. I know many deaf friends of mine who are children of deaf parents, who turn out to have beautiful English. Look at some members here, such as Freaky and AllisonJoy. They are good examples of why it doesn't matter what language is being used. What matters most is if the teachers actually did their jobs and teach the kids right.

I agree with you..but you were speaking of adults with ASL.

What if you had a child with ASL going through a state sponsored...what would be its rank?

How about a child with SEE going through a public school?

Yes, good teachers.....but there's others that you have to take in consideration...parents? usage of proper education books? Internet? Socializing with other people?

 

[kuifje75]

A child going through a school for the deaf, learning in ASL, would still have good English, if he was motivated enough, and had good teachers, good parents, etc... Didn't AllisonJoy go to RISD? I don't remember anymore, but I do not think ASL is a factor. I think the school system is the biggest problem.

Keep in mind that schools for hearing students also do a poor job of teaching their students. Some of my hearing friends cannot write proper English or spell right. I do not think that deaf or hearing is a factor at all. I think if the student himself has enough motivation, is encouraged by his parents, made sure by his teachers to learn proper English, etc.. etc... I use ASL and write English fine. I think my English actually improved when I started switching to ASL and learning English differently. I think it was because when I was in deaf classroom all day, all we focused on was how to say words right, etc... We didn't focus on grammar or lessons we learned. When I started mainstreaming, I had ASL interpreters who signed in ASL, and I understood everything much better.

Of course, everyone is different, and would learn differently. There is no right model to fit everyone's learning patterns.

 

[Kalista]

I know many deaf friends of mine who are children of deaf parents, who turn out to have beautiful English.

I was amazing to see nowadays Deaf children at The Learning Center for the Deaf are brilliant than my time. I was oral during 1960's to 1970's at RISD. I was struggled to understand in English with the hearing teachers because they do not sign in appropriated. I was mis-reading and misunderstanding their sign PSE and English mixing. I dont get their point in English.

A child going through a school for the deaf, learning in ASL, would still have good English, if he was motivated enough, and had good teachers, good parents, etc... Didn't AllisonJoy go to RISD? I don't remember anymore, but I do not think ASL is a factor. I think the school system is the biggest problem.

I grew up with AllisonJoy's Mom and Dad at Deaf School since we were little kids. I can see Allison is very brilliant young woman. She is very courageous and particular many activities and organization. She makes many new and old friends. Her Dad told me few months ago. Her Dad was very proud of her how much she is enthusiasm to approach in real world at her such younger age. She is very impressed!

Allison's Deaf Mom and Dad are very adored and cherish her alot. I can see how much her Dad loves her. I have known her Father since we were three year old.

I am very excitied for AllisonJoy entrollment at Gallaudet Unviersity this fall !

~ Sabrina

 

[Boult]

Originally posted by deafdyke
Nope, that is inaccurate. If it were true, then the average reading and writing levels of all deaf and hoh people would be a lot higher. The reading and writing levels of ALL deaf and hoh people are at a 4th grade level(not just ASL users!) . Let's take an AllDeaf example to illustrate what I mean. (note to mods I am NOT picking on these people..... I'm just using them as an example)
Look at the written language of BabyPhat (who is strong oral and who has even attended an oral school) Her written language is just OK...not saying it's not good but it's not exactly something that would be seen in an Honors English class or even a mainstream average level class.Her vocabulary is not that sophisticated, and there are numorous syntaxial and grammartical errors seen that are simlair to "Deaf" grammar and syntax errors. Compare her written language to the written language of allisonjoy or teddy. (both of whom use ASL as their primary language) Their written English expression is EXTREMELY good, with only an occasional grammar/syntax error, simlair to what would be seen in a mainstream average English class.

Oral deaf people tend to have good speech (pronounciation, articulation, clarity, pitch, volume etc) but not have a really good grasp on the langauage itself. Sort of like.....a hearing person might be able to pronounce things really well in French but only have the language mastery of a French 2nd or 4th grader. (in English terms that would mean that the person was using vocab/syntax/ grammar/sentance complexity like that found in Captain Underpants whereas a native of English would be reading Stephen King or even academic tomes like Backlash or stuff that makes William Safire look like Captain Underpants!
My speech is decent but my language is even better!
That's b/c my parents didn't spend thousands of hours and years on a "pwetty wittle voice" They understand that what I say is more important then HOW I say it! Do you understand now?

I don't believe your source in regard to reading level...

go there: http://gri.gallaudet.edu/Literacy/#reading

it quotes:

We have examined large numbers of deaf and hard of hearing students who are quite representative of those throughout the United States. When the Gallaudet Research Institute conducts large educational test standardization studies to obtain norms (percentile scores) for deaf and hard of hearing students, the data collected are used to describe students' achievement. In the last norming of a widely used achievement test, the Stanford Achievement Test, 9th Edition (Harcourt Educational Measurement, 1996), deaf and hard of hearing students aged 8 through 18 were given the test, including the Reading Comprehension subtest. The measure of reading achievement we are using is the Reading Comprehension subtest, a multiple-choice test.

(boult's note: notice it is "multiple-choice")

It is important to note that the reading achievement is of deaf and hard of hearing students who are in school. We are not talking about adults, and we are not talking about high school graduates. (I want to clarify this point, because many people ask about adults and about high school graduates, for which we have no data.)

For the 17-year-olds and the 18-year-olds in the deaf and hard of hearing student norming sample, the median Reading Comprehension subtest score corresponds to about a 4.0 grade level for hearing students. That means that half of the deaf and hard of hearing students at that age scored above the typical hearing student at the beginning of fourth grade, and half scored below. The "median" is the 50th percentile, and is one of the ways to express an average, or typical, score. (A "mean" score, or arithmetic average, is not the same as the median.)

The technical report of the norming study (Interpreting the Scores) describes the students and details the methods used. It describes also the psychometric properties (reliability and validity) of the test when used with deaf and hard of hearing students. The norms booklet presents the test scores and is the source of the 4.0 grade equivalent score for 17- and 18-year-old deaf students in the norming sample. The norms booklet gives test score information for deaf and hard of hearing students aged 8 through 18 on the subtests Word Study Skills, Word Reading, Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics: Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, Language, Environment, Study Skills, Science, Social Science, and Listening. Age-based percentile norms are given for Word Reading/Reading Vocabulary, Reading Comprehension, Mathematics: Problem Solving, Mathematics: Procedures, Spelling, and Language. These are the citations for these documents:

 

[SilenceGold]

Originally posted by kuifje75
A child going through a school for the deaf, learning in ASL, would still have good English, if he was motivated enough, and had good teachers, good parents, etc... Didn't AllisonJoy go to RISD? I don't remember anymore, but I do not think ASL is a factor. I think the school system is the biggest problem.

Keep in mind that schools for hearing students also do a poor job of teaching their students. Some of my hearing friends cannot write proper English or spell right. I do not think that deaf or hearing is a factor at all. I think if the student himself has enough motivation, is encouraged by his parents, made sure by his teachers to learn proper English, etc.. etc... I use ASL and write English fine. I think my English actually improved when I started switching to ASL and learning English differently. I think it was because when I was in deaf classroom all day, all we focused on was how to say words right, etc... We didn't focus on grammar or lessons we learned. When I started mainstreaming, I had ASL interpreters who signed in ASL, and I understood everything much better.

Of course, everyone is different, and would learn differently. There is no right model to fit everyone's learning patterns.

I'm thinking about what you're saying. That gives me a new way to look at how much influence that those deaf children are under.

Thanks.

 

[tAzMaNiAc]

Originally posted by kuifje75
A child going through a school for the deaf, learning in ASL, would still have good English, if he was motivated enough, and had good teachers, good parents, etc... Didn't AllisonJoy go to RISD? I don't remember anymore, but I do not think ASL is a factor. I think the school system is the biggest problem.

It could be the school is the problem.

However, if you use other English methods, it's a LOT easier to put the idea of proper English into one's head than it is to try to use ASL and ENGLISH at the same time.

I grew up with the Total Communication method (70s-80s) and it's turned out well for me. They used SEE at that time, plus emphasis on teaching speech and lipreading skills.

The other key is parents here, people.. My mom bought all kinds of books for me. She also read books to me in sign at bedtime.

CI helps immensely in education and upbringing, because there will be NO NEED for special education. He or she will be ready for school and be equivalent or exceeding normal levels by the time she/he gets there. ASL/Whatever could still be taught, but why bother when the child is already fluent in hearing and speaking? That's where people bomb at this point.

Why put your child through all the hassles you went through - just to preserve something called "Deaf Culture". People doing that are pretty selfish, really. Just look at the success story of Nita and Heather (from Sound and Fury). Heather is doing so great and already can talk on the phone. She even signs too, and is within the deaf community too!

Brenden

 

[Boult]

Originally posted by tAzMaNiAc

Why put your child through all the hassles you went through - just to preserve something called "Deaf Culture". People doing that are pretty selfish, really. Just look at the success story of Nita and Heather (from Sound and Fury). Heather is doing so great and already can talk on the phone. She even signs too, and is within the deaf community too!

Brenden

I hope you are not thinking that they are still in MD! They moved back to Long Island to be around their family and siblings... I would like to add that Heather's brother also have CI too. Both got implanted about at the same time.. Nita was the next to get one. I believe the influences comes from watching Peter grow up with CI and Nita feeling the water on CI issues for 3yrs after the movie. I can safely say that all those deaf sibilings in both Peter and Chris's family are implanted except for the deaf grandparents of little peter's and Peter himself too..

 

[Liza]

Speaking of which, I found this piece to speak volumes regarding perspectives on subjects. We judge and measure things drawing from our own experiences and the programming we have been taught from our childhood. Thought this would be fun to insert in these discussions.

"Good advice can come from someone with experience, or from someone who has an objective view of another's situation. Who is advising whom in this piece depends on where you are."
http://www.kevinkresse.com/s3.html (scroll to the bottom)

 

[kuifje75]

Originally posted by tAzMaNiAc
Why put your child through all the hassles you went through - just to preserve something called "Deaf Culture". People doing that are pretty selfish, really. Just look at the success story of Nita and Heather (from Sound and Fury). Heather is doing so great and already can talk on the phone. She even signs too, and is within the deaf community too!

Brenden

This is a standard that is imposed by hearin society for us to try and act like hearing people. I myself do not care about the ability to hear, and am pretty content with the way I am. Everyone is different, and hearing people need to remember that sometimes. Don't you think it is pretty selfish of the hearing society to impose that upon me to learn how to listen, how to read lips, how to speak, etc...?

 

[VamPyroX]

It's not cochlear implants that hurt our "deaf pride". It's the individuals themselves that hurt it. I have some friends who have CIs but they still maintain their good deaf friends and follow "deaf culture". They even continue to sign unlike some of those other CIs who suddenly start talking and sign less. Those other CIs also dump their deaf friends and find hearing friends. Like I said, it's the individual that does it. If I had a friend who got CIs and he suddenly stopped talking to me, that's not my problem... it's his problem. I'm not going to go blaming everyone for CIs.

 

[deafdyke]

Vamprox, WORD!!!!!!!!!!! Besides as I have repeatly mentioned, way back when, a lot of Deaf leaders thought hearing aids were going to destroy deaf culture. If this was sixty/seventy years ago, we'd probaly be debating hearing aids vs. ear trumpets. Wrong! Hearing aids haven't destroyed deaf culture. Research has indicated that even oral deafies(and even many HOH) pick up ASL as a second language. I think right now the debate isn't nessarly about speech vs. sign but more about which language should be the child's first language, and at which age the second language should be introduced.

Taz, Why introduce ASL when they can hear and speak?
Well, research has shown that ASL can be an IQ booster(that is actually a BIG part of the reason why ASL has been so popular among hearing people for their little kids) , ASL lessens frustration with both receptive and expressive language. Not everyone has a professional speaker voice that is easy to understand. There are many people who do, yes but there are also plenty of people who mumble and who don't enunciate and articulate correctly. There are plenty of people who even HEARING people have trouble understanding! Also Sign tends to be the common language among deaf people, even many people who grew up oral. Do you honestly think that all deaf people have perfectly clear understandable voices? Can we say permanet speech therapy session?
Also, as you may have read, there is a correlation between Braille literacy and employment in the blind-world. Now in blind education, Braille is as unfashionable as ASL is in deaf ed. Who knows? Maybe there is a simliar correlation between ASL fluency and employment for deaf and hoh people.
Also, you hear so many oral deafies (and parents of deafies who grew up oral) say that they wish they'd learned ASL sooner or even had the chance to grow up with ASL!
It's better to be safe then sorry.
Also, I've found that it's rare for most places to have ALDs and have the most modren equipment. Usually the only thing that's available for public accomondations is a 'terp. (and very rarely C-Print/ CART)
You claim that if a child gets A-V EI early enough that they won't need special ed services later. It's not nessarly methodolgy that would cause this. I know ASLers who with the exception of requiring a 'terp require NO special education services whatsoever!
How do you know that the sucess isn't nesssarly due to socio-economic status? Kids of high powered yuppie parents tend to be very high acheiving b/c their parents are really involved in their lives. Yuppy parents can afford to send their kids to expensive schools or to move to St. Louis or the other cities and towns where the oral schools are located. They can afford the best therapists and listening equipment and insurance and things like that. Even many middle-class people can't afford things like A-V therapy or wiring their home for an FM device or things like that. I have a feeling that the ONLY reason why oralism is still popular is b/c it is so profitable!

 

[VamPyroX]

I do admit that I may have shown a bit of some negativity towards CIs in the past but deep inside, I believe that it's the individual that really matters. There are a lot of things that this individuality depends on...

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
CIs don't change a person, a person changes himself/herself.

"Don't judge a book by its cover. It's what's inside that counts."
- unknown

 

[deafdyke]

This is a standard that is imposed by hearin society for us to try and act like hearing people.

Kuife, Amen!
Another reason why oralism is pushed is b/c so the educational system can claim "Oh they aren't really deaf. They don't need a TOD or any accomondations" (which BTW is untrue......by high school they are going to need a notetaker which falls under special ed)

 

[tAzMaNiAc]

Originally posted by SilenceGold
Would you please explain to me?

You're great at writing then not well at speaking?

I'm great at both.

I was writing and reading just fine at 5.

At 5, of course, I didn't speak as well as I do now, so thats why it didn't happen to me.. I did the "reverse" course.....

But, heck, speaking/ listening does help a heck of a lot in gaining reading/writing skills. But it can be done without if needed, in the case of deaf people.

Brenden

 

[tAzMaNiAc]

Originally posted by DeafAlwAyZRawKs
mmmmm whoawhoawhoa, brenden, just take it easy, I dont have experience, but I SEE them, my friends have CI they totally hate it, because they get treated like LOW-life people..... i just dont understand what you have against me being against CI? mm

I don't have anything against you being against CI.. I have things against you spreading misinformation. That's all. I'm actually cool.. so If I misread your intentions, sorry.

Brenden