Belgium becomes first Euro country to ban the burkha

[Lighthouse77]

Laws in afghanistan? It's anarchy there last time I read the newspaper, but agree the community have decided how women should dress. You can't use sign language with burka, that's what the deaf women of afghanistan complained about.

It's a difference between covering a person with a large sheet and protecting someone against cold or nudity, IMO.

That's how laws are formed usually: The society agree on things, then they enforce it, and apparently they all agreed that women should wear Burka.

 

[flip]

ah-ha! now I understand where you're getting at. What you're referring to is that South Korea and Japan are "adapting" to Westerner style - fast food... capitalism... free markets... etc.

but South Koreans and Japanese are not Westerners

Ok, never been there I had economy and military in mind yes. Regarding the "threat" of Islam in the western world, it's perhaps more west europe-north america-australia. Not sure of australia, but islam is starting to get very visible in parts of europe.

 

[flip]

That's how laws are formed usually: The society agree on things.

Perhaps, but it's not a written law in afghanistan to wear burkas.

 

[Lighthouse77]

Perhaps, but it's not a written law in afghanistan to wear burkas.

yeah, but it was there, because they fear of being caught without it. Too many people would report them or injure them because they agree that women should wear it.

 

[jillio]

It shouldn't be banned.

Agreed.

 

[jillio]

I only worry if the LAW forced us to wear it. Which was happening in Afghanistan. The whole community decided how women should dress. And I think lipreading is mostly related to oralism anyway so that is damaging enough anyway.

But really, our parent forced us to wear clothes. I'm sure they used the same method as our parents used on us to get us to wear proper clothing and explained why we had to wear it. Is it really physical abuse?

That is because the justice system in Afghanistan is directly tied to religious practices. The way their justice system is set up is completely different that the way the justice system in the U.S. is set up.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Ok, never been there I had economy and military in mind yes. Regarding the "threat" of Islam in the western world, it's perhaps more west europe-north america-australia. Not sure of australia, but islam is starting to get very visible in parts of europe.

You're right about Australia.

A little bird in Perth likes to complain that Somalis, Indonesians and Middle Easterns trying to force their religious values upon others (ie. all swimming instructors need to be fully clothed and so on.) So they're making themselves visible there as well.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

eh? Japan and South Korea as Westerners? :scratch:

Every textbook I have come across considered Korea and Japan to be "Western" for the last 50-70 years or so.... China, India, Indonesia and so on are "Easterners."

Even then, flip is probably right, since I know a few of my Muslim friends complain about xenophobia in Japan-- it's probably the same in Korea.

 

[Reba]

It says, "The text of the new law does not specifically mention burkas but makes it illegal for anyone to wear clothing ‘that covers all or most of the face’ in any public place."

Would that include people wearing scarves covering their lower faces when it's cold out, a medical mask to prevent the spread of H1N1, or full-face tinted motorcycle helmet visors?

 

[kokonut]

It says, "The text of the new law does not specifically mention burkas but makes it illegal for anyone to wear clothing ‘that covers all or most of the face’ in any public place."

Would that include people wearing scarves covering their lower faces when it's cold out, a medical mask to prevent the spread of H1N1, or full-face tinted motorcycle helmet visors?

It is problematic.

But I agree with a bank's requirement to leave your face fully exposed before entering.

 

[CJB]

Banning burkas is just as bad as enforcing them. In fact, most of the "non-religious" reasons I hear just sound like poor justifications for islamophobia. Identification issues? Make burkas with distinctive features visible to a security camera. Abuse? Each case and each individual is different. Some women choose to wear it, some feel pressured. We can't even begin to know the complexities behind why each woman wears the burka, let alone use one sweeping assumption to justify legislation.

 

[CJB]

I would consider covering a woman with a large sheet some kind of physical abuse.

But what do they consider it? How would each woman reply if you were to ask each woman individually why she wears it?

If those women in europe who claim they wear it by their own will, could explain the difference of using it in europe and in afghanistan, if there is any, I am sure a lot of people would care less about the burka. It's striking how this never happens. I don't know why.

How do you know they don't? Have you talked to any of these women?

It's easy for us to superimpose our frame of mind on others. But the thing is each woman has their own frame of mind. By assuming that none of them want to wear it and are forced, we're no better than the hearies that assume all Deafies want a CI and oral education.

 

[jillio]

But what do they consider it? How would each woman reply if you were to ask each woman individually why she wears it?



How do you know they don't? Have you talked to any of these women?

It's easy for us to superimpose our frame of mind on others. But the thing is each woman has their own frame of mind. By assuming that none of them want to wear it and are forced, we're no better than the hearies that assume all Deafies want a CI and oral education.

Bingo, CJB. Judgement is being made from an ethnocentric perspective.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

Wow, a gusty move by Belgium.

Seems like they took a page from France when France had hijabs and cross banned in schools.

It'd be interesting to watch other European countries do something like this or not.

 

[flip]

yeah, but it was there, because they fear of being caught without it. Too many people would report them or injure them because they agree that women should wear it.

Yes. The concern is that this can happen in the ghettos of europe, too. We have problems with forced marriages(yong women seek help in abuse centers or commit suicide) and honor killings, too.

 

[flip]

You're right about Australia.

A little bird in Perth likes to complain that Somalis, Indonesians and Middle Easterns trying to force their religious values upon others (ie. all swimming instructors need to be fully clothed and so on.) So they're making themselves visible there as well.

Ok. I have heard of afghanis flooding into australia, so not surprised. I am familar with that situation, but feel it's easterns who try to preserve their culture and values, instead of forcing it on others, but it feels like they force it on us. I think that's extremly selfish of parents to do that, because their children are growing up in a different country than their parents, and don't need to isolate, but become a part of their new country.

 

[flip]

But what do they consider it? How would each woman reply if you were to ask each woman individually why she wears it?

How do you know they don't? Have you talked to any of these women?

It's easy for us to superimpose our frame of mind on others. But the thing is each woman has their own frame of mind. By assuming that none of them want to wear it and are forced, we're no better than the hearies that assume all Deafies want a CI and oral education.

I never said none of them want to wear it, but it's problems associated with it, and the stance among those who claim to wear it out of free will is diffuse(it's rare to hear they wear it out of tradition or to worship allah). I have talked to many muslim women, they are all around me here in europe.

 

[flip]

Bingo, CJB. Judgement is being made from an ethnocentric perspective.

Finally we disagree on something No one complains or raise a eyebrow when Egypt or Turkey bans the use of burka, but when it's done in Belgium, it's racism. If westerns ban it, it's ethnocentrism, but when easterns ban it, it's...? Or is it that Belgium is accepting they are becoming a secular islamic/christian/jewish/atheitst state, and bans burka for the same rasons as most other secular muslim states?

 

[CJB]

I never said none of them want to wear it, but it's problems associated with it, and the stance among those who claim to wear it out of free will is diffuse(it's rare to hear they wear it out of tradition or to worship allah). I have talked to many muslim women, they are all around me here in europe.

Then leave it up to the women actually wearing burka to wear it or not wear it or modify it as they need. There's no need for the government to interfere with a ban.

 

[CJB]

Finally we disagree on something No one complains or raise a eyebrow when Egypt or Turkey bans the use of burka, but when it's done in Belgium, it's racism. If westerns ban it, it's ethnocentrism, but when easterns ban it, it's...? Or is it that Belgium is accepting they are becoming a secular islamic/christian/jewish/atheitst state, and bans burka for the same rasons as most other secular muslim states?

I don't think it's any more right to ban the burka in Turkey or Egypt either. Whether it's in Belgium or Turkey or China, a ban is a ban. And I think banning a dress code is no different than enforcing one.