AZ Congresswoman...12 others, shot

Reba said:
Key word is, he claims no recollection of the shooting. When it comes to remembering or not remembering things, people can claim anything.


Is this what you're referring to?

"...Scott Hinckley, John's brother, was scheduled to have dinner at the Denver home of Neil Bush, Bush, Sr.'s, son (and of course the current president's brother) the day after the shooting. At the time, Neil Bush was a Denver-based purchaser of mineral rights for Amoco, and Scott Hinckley was the vice president of his father's Denver-based oil business."

(from our friend Rense's site :) )
That would be George H.W. Bush, not George W.
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So, until we have evidence to the contrary, it is a bit soon to determine exactly what his mental status was at the time.
 
ember said:
How do you know that he was able to discern the difference between right and wrong according to societal standards for non-mentally ill persons? That requires the assessment of a professional, and even then, it is a best guess judgement, as he could not be assessed at the time he took the action. He can only report regarding his mental status at that time

Those were your words in response to mine.
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Yes. And?
 
ember said:
jillio said:
Am I reading something wrong here or getting something lost in translation because I missed when it was morally right to open fire in a public place
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Who said it was? But a person with a mental illness is not always able to comply with accepted standards of moral behavior as a result of the illness. Are you suggesting that we punish people for being mentally ill?
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ember said:
Those were your words not mine, I said it was wrong and we all know within us that is wrong to take the life of another human being.
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I assumed you had a purpose in quoting my words. I fully admit to posting the words you quoted, but no where in that post did I suggest it was right to take the life of another human being. That is why I said "And"? I don't get your point.
 
jillio said:
ember said:
Who said it was? But a person with a mental illness is not always able to comply with accepted standards of moral behavior as a result of the illness. Are you suggesting that we punish people for being mentally ill?
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Not at all but am I suggesting that we allow him to blame others or put of his responsibility for his own actions off on someone else just because he has a mental illness no. Should he be treated and punished in a different manner than someone that does not suffer a mental illness yes, should he be absolutely punished and take full responsibility yes, because what about people screaming, crying and dying said to him oh its game this is not wrong and what I am doing is justified, no he knew it was wrong.
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jillio said:
I assumed you had a purpose in quoting my words. I fully admit to posting the words you quoted, but no where in that post did I suggest it was right to take the life of another human being. That is why I said "And"? I don't get your point.
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I am not retyping that entire part of the conversation we were having go back and read it for yourself
 
jillio said:
So, until we have evidence to the contrary, it is a bit soon to determine exactly what his mental status was at the time.
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I'm not sure how that fits in with the Hinckley and Sirhan post but OK. :)
 
ember said:
I am not retyping that entire part of the conversation we were having go back and read it for yourself
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I read it. I don't need to read it again. I am asking you what point you are attempting to make in quoting it?
 
ember said:
jillio said:
Not at all but am I suggesting that we allow him to blame others or put of his responsibility for his own actions off on someone else just because he has a mental illness no. Should he be treated and punished in a different manner than someone that does not suffer a mental illness yes, should he be absolutely punished and take full responsibility yes, because what about people screaming, crying and dying said to him oh its game this is not wrong and what I am doing is justified, no he knew it was wrong.
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So, you don't think it is important that we pay attention to what he has to say regarding influences that led to his actions? How, then, do you propose that we prevent the same thing from occurring again?

You seem to demand responsibility from someone who is mentally ill, but are fine with letting supposedly intelligent, congnitively unimpaired public figures not taking responsibility for their actions.
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jillio said:
The part that was talking about him "claiming" not to remember.
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I'm a little behind on the news. Did Loughner also claim to not remember the shooting? I thought he lawyered up and refused to talk. :dunno:
 
Reba said:
I'm a little behind on the news. Did Loughner also claim to not remember the shooting? I thought he lawyered up and refused to talk. :dunno:
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These quotes are so screwed up...let me go back and see if I can find the one I am referring to.

Here we go:

Originally Posted by Reba
Key word is, he claims no recollection of the shooting. When it comes to remembering or not remembering things, people can claim anything.
 
jillio said:
ember said:
So, you don't think it is important that we pay attention to what he has to say regarding influences that led to his actions? How, then, do you propose that we prevent the same thing from occurring again?

You seem to demand responsibility from someone who is mentally ill, but are fine with letting supposedly intelligent, congnitively unimpaired public figures not taking responsibility for their actions.
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We are having two different conversations so here is the response to the first. I said he knew what he was doing was wrong. You responded all about how do we know what is right or wrong, which is why I responded the way that I did.

Second conversation I haven't even begun on what I do or don't think about what the responsibility or what actions should be taken by the people who influenced him, I have only spoken about Loughner himself.

To answer your question I am still pondering that because as public figures should they be mindful of the words they use and the impact they will have on others yes, but I also believe in freedom of speech and I know more censor myself for fear of the impact it will have on others so to what degree do we put responsibility on others. You said she should be responsible for her actions and what did she do exactly but give a speech that was more for her political footing than it was for anything else she had no idea of the outcome from that. Do I believe politicians use poison as words absolutely but you can't censor them without censoring yourself and none of that makes sense to me right now but again I am still working that out.
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ember said:
jillio said:
We are having two different conversations so here is the response to the first. I said he knew what he was doing was wrong. You responded all about how do we know what is right or wrong, which is why I responded the way that I did.

Second conversation I haven't even begun on what I do or don't think about what the responsibility or what actions should be taken by the people who influenced him, I have only spoken about Loughner himself.

To answer your question I am still pondering that because as public figures should they be mindful of the words they use and the impact they will have on others yes, but I also believe in freedom of speech and I know more censor myself for fear of the impact it will have on others so to what degree do we put responsibility on others. You said she should be responsible for her actions and what did she do exactly but give a speech that was more for her political footing than it was for anything else she had no idea of the outcome from that. Do I believe politicians use poison as words absolutely but you can't censor them without censoring yourself and none of that makes sense to me right now but again I am still working that out.
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No, I did not respond that way. I responded by asking, "How do you know that he was able to determine right from wrong based on societal standards at the time he took action. He was delusional. His delusions no doubt interfered with his ability to determine that.

I'm not saying that we need to censor politicians. I'm saying that politicians need to be responsible enough to understand that their words can have an impact that they never expected when heard by a vulnerable person. If they want to use violent metaphors, then they need to be responsible for the effect that has and not cry "victim" when someone points out the connection.
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jillio said:
ember said:
No, I did not respond that way. I responded by asking, "How do you know that he was able to determine right from wrong based on societal standards at the time he took action. He was delusional. His delusions no doubt interfered with his ability to determine that.

I'm not saying that we need to censor politicians. I'm saying that politicians need to be responsible enough to understand that their words can have an impact that they never expected when heard by a vulnerable person. If they want to use violent metaphors, then they need to be responsible for the effect that has and not cry "victim" when someone points out the connection.
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And how does that work exactly, you may say that I respond that way I do because of my culture. And I could respond back that you are a racist. When that wasn't what you meant at all you were talking about the fact that I am a hearie. No one person is responsible for how another incorrectly perceived their words.
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