ASL, PSE, or SEE, which is superior

ASL is still SUPERIOR, and even thouse who think signs SEE usually follows ASL rules and not even know it! I have seen plenty, enuff said.
 
As far as in the education environment goes, here is my take:

I see SEE useful as a teaching tool when teaching reading and writing but for learning new concepts, ASL is the language to use.

I use between ASL and PSE..I couldnt sign SEE in a conversation even if I tried. I only use it when modeling English to my students. I explain to my students that what I am about to sign is SEE so they will be aware of the differences. So far, it is working.

For those students who have a poor language foundation, they wouldnt be able to have any use for SEE so they need ASL to build their language foundation first.
 
I sign PSE because I like this one the best I know how to sign SEE, and ASL but I don't really like the idea of ASL being taught as first language to children because in the most case it screw their english grammar and concepts up badly. So start them with PSE or SEE and teach them ASL later in life but keep them on learning, writing and reading so they stay on track and still write right I've seen it happen way too often that they could write pretty good and suddenly they transferred to deaf school and their writing and reading skill suddenly changed and sucked because its written in ASL grammar its frustrating to see it happens. So I think PSE is the way to go till someone's mature and intelligent enough to understand its way you sign not the way you write it to learn ASL.
Just my opinion.
 
SkullChick said:
I sign PSE because I like this one the best I know how to sign SEE, and ASL but I don't really like the idea of ASL being taught as first language to children because in the most case it screw their english grammar and concepts up badly. So start them with PSE or SEE and teach them ASL later in life but keep them on learning, writing and reading so they stay on track and still write right I've seen it happen way too often that they could write pretty good and suddenly they transferred to deaf school and their writing and reading skill suddenly changed and sucked because its written in ASL grammar its frustrating to see it happens. So I think PSE is the way to go till someone's mature and intelligent enough to understand its way you sign not the way you write it to learn ASL.
Just my opinion.
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As a teacher, I see and was taught the complete opposite. Those who have a strong language foundation with ASL or spoken English are able to master written English. In my 5 years of teaching, I already see the differences. One boy who is in 1st grade is reading at 2nd grade level and he is from a deaf family who uses strong ASL at home.
 
shel90 said:
As far as in the education environment goes, here is my take:

I see SEE useful as a teaching tool when teaching reading and writing but for learning new concepts, ASL is the language to use.

I use between ASL and PSE..I couldnt sign SEE in a conversation even if I tried. I only use it when modeling English to my students. I explain to my students that what I am about to sign is SEE so they will be aware of the differences. So far, it is working.

For those students who have a poor language foundation, they wouldnt be able to have any use for SEE so they need ASL to build their language foundation first.
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I agree with Shel 110%. As a teacher, this is exactly what I've come to realize.
 
shel90 said:
As a teacher, I see and was taught the complete opposite. Those who have a strong language foundation with ASL or spoken English are able to master written English. In my 5 years of teaching, I already see the differences. One boy who is in 1st grade is reading at 2nd grade level and he is from a deaf family who uses strong ASL at home.
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Exactly. A strong foundation in ASL actually increases the ability to transfer those skills into learning English as an L2 language.
 
Although I am not a TOD, I agree with shel, deafbajagal and Jillio on this one.

I remember half of my AP English/history class at MSSD came from Deaf families and this included a deaf korean who was adopted by a PA Deaf family. I think only 2 prelinguals (I think) in that class came from hearing familes and the rest became deaf after age 3.
 
shel90 said:
As a teacher, I see and was taught the complete opposite. Those who have a strong language foundation with ASL or spoken English are able to master written English. In my 5 years of teaching, I already see the differences. One boy who is in 1st grade is reading at 2nd grade level and he is from a deaf family who uses strong ASL at home.
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That's a really interesting observation. Because it's not what I see here in Minnesota. It could be that the Minnesota schools are (or were, as I'm more or less referring to back when I was in school which was the 70's and 80's) not as focused with teaching deaf children proper English. In the early 80's, it became such an issue at MSAD (Minnesota School for the Deaf) that then-Governor Rudy Perpich wanted to shut down the school, citing the lack of good English and communication skills as the primary reason. He ended up not because of a public outcry among parents. I am completely deaf, and I learned the very basics of ASL at the same time I was learning English and to speak starting when I when I was 2, but I was also mainstreamed and had IEP teachers for all my school years. I'm not speaking out against any other deaf person in Minnesota or anywhere else for that matter because I do know other deaf people that have beautiful English, I'm only saying what I have generally seen and what has been noticed by others -- that children learning ASL first can go on to have less skills in written English.
 
AlleyCat said:
That's a really interesting observation. Because it's not what I see here in Minnesota. It could be that the Minnesota schools are (or were, as I'm more or less referring to back when I was in school which was the 70's and 80's) not as focused with teaching deaf children proper English. In the early 80's, it became such an issue at MSAD (Minnesota School for the Deaf) that then-Governor Rudy Perpich wanted to shut down the school, citing the lack of good English and communication skills as the primary reason. He ended up not because of a public outcry among parents. I am completely deaf, and I learned the very basics of ASL at the same time I was learning English and to speak starting when I when I was 2, but I was also mainstreamed and had IEP teachers for all my school years. I'm not speaking out against any other deaf person in Minnesota or anywhere else for that matter because I do know other deaf people that have beautiful English, I'm only saying what I have generally seen and what has been noticed by others -- that children learning ASL first can go on to have less skills in written English.
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I think back then, people really didn't know how to teach deaf children properly cuz of all the different approaches being tried out. With the bi bi approach, things shud be better or at least from my experience. I have only been teaching for 5 years so I can't speak for what happened in the 70s and 80s. Many teachers from those days said the TC approach was too confusing for them cu z nobody could agree on anything.
 
Yes, and they couldn't even agree on what TC was...some said it was the same as Sim Com and others said it was the use of any means to make a point come across - not only different communication modes but using pictures, gestures, and drama to help the students understand.

I use TC in my classroom but not by choice - it is the school district's policy. What a joke TC is. I waste a lot of time trying to sign in ASL, PSE, and English as well as voice when appropriate. I literally go over the same lesson three or four times trying to make sure every kid got his/her modality in. I think it's more confusing for them...but what can I do?

AlleyCat brought up an interesting point...should the languages be learned at the same time, or should one be mastered before learning the second one? Experts, including those who research in deaf education such as Peter Paul, disagree on this topic but most of them say that learning them at the same time is better. For most deaf kids, they really don't have a choice as they don't start learning ANY languages until they reach school age.
 
I agree with you, shel & deafbajagal, on the TC. In TC programs from that time period. kids were exposed to confusing linguistic models. They got neither proper English models, nor proper ASL models. As a consequence, both their sign and their English was impoverished.

The researchers do disagree on timing, but it has been shown that children are quite capable of learning 2 languages at once. as in bilingual households where they are exposed to 2 or more languages at one time. One language, however, will usually become dominant over time.

The best way to explain the TC philosophy of the 70's and 80's was to use anything and everything. A little of this, and a little of that. Very electic. That electisim was the problem...no strong foundation in anything. It is one thing to use an integrative approach....quite another to use an electic approach.
 
Personally I think ASL (or in my case BSL) is the best choice.

I'm quite keen on SEE and I want to learn some of the grammar signs (the British variation preferably, but ASL SEE will do until then. Someone could always help and link to a website with video with like, "the", "a", "to", "for", etc) just so I can explain myself a little better at times. This is more to do with the fact I'm still learning sign language.

On the downside, SEE is really slow compared to ASL, and has been described as "two-dimensional".

Here's an example of the differences:

ASL: YouTube - Introduction in ASL
SEE: YouTube - Another introduction of myself BUT in Signed English

ps: that isn't me :D

I tend to use PSE the most, because I sign to my wife mainly. I'd prefer it if my signing grammar was better so I could use something else, but in time I shall. :)
 
The biggest problem with the MCEs is that they use a mode intended to convey information in a time oriented and spatial way and change it to a linear arrangement intended for auditory information. The ear and the eye process information differently. That is one of the reasons that they seem so cumbersome in use. The brain is actually having to translate in processing, and it is tiring.
 
SkullChick said:
I sign PSE because I like this one the best I know how to sign SEE, and ASL but I don't really like the idea of ASL being taught as first language to children because in the most case it screw their english grammar and concepts up badly. So start them with PSE or SEE and teach them ASL later in life but keep them on learning, writing and reading so they stay on track and still write right I've seen it happen way too often that they could write pretty good and suddenly they transferred to deaf school and their writing and reading skill suddenly changed and sucked because its written in ASL grammar its frustrating to see it happens. So I think PSE is the way to go till someone's mature and intelligent enough to understand its way you sign not the way you write it to learn ASL.
Just my opinion.
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I agree with you.

The United States follows the English system when it comes to communication.

Since ASL is considered a second language, then deaf students should learn English the way it should be taught... with proper grammar and structure.

If Hispanics go through it, then deaf people should too.

Race and handicap is no different... they both deserve equal treatment.

If a Hispanic kid wants to get through English school, he has to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

If a deaf kid wants to get through English school, he should also have to learn English and go through English class like every other kid.

Hispanics still speak Spanish when they're away from school or talking with each other among other Hispanics. But, they use the English system when they are in school or doing homework.

Deaf people do the same thing. So, saying that their primary language is ASL shouldn't be an excuse NOT to use SEE or follow the English system. That's basically what school is about... learning. Whether it's hard or not, they should still learn.

So, in school... SEE or any sign language that resembles proper English grammar and structure should be used. ASL should be something best left to themselves.
 
Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language.

I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me.

If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.
 
Chase said:
Superior, stupid, and ugly are certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I use ASL when signing with my older sister, deaf since birth, and mostly ASL grammar when writing back and forth, because that's her language.

I use SEE when signing with my girlfriend and English when writing back and forth, because that's her language. Stupid would be to force her into another way. Ugly just doesn't make sense when she's signing the best she knows how to accommodate me.

If I knew someone who preferred PSE, I'd most likely slip into that mode if it were what he or she knew best or preferred.
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There you go! Flexibility is the key. Communication is the issue.
 
jillio said:
Nope, it's in the title of the thread.
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I understand the title of the thread is which is superior. What I am saying is that is going to depend on ones definition of superior. Add to that subjectivity and it's going to be a mixed bag of results.
 
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