Anyone Else Feel Like They Have Asperger Syndrome?

[fredfam1]

And you will be wrong. Mental disorders, except for the severe psychotic disorders, are most often treated by LPCCs or psychologists. They don't prescribe.

Were you aware that family practioners and physicians assistants in Oregon are allowed to prescribe antidepressents?

 

[jillio]

ou are talking about a physical illness that manifests as a mental disorder.
Earlier, you referred to a "behavior anomaly." Physical illness is not a "behavior anomaly", and the behavior that results from psychiatric manifestations of a physical illness is not a "behavior anomaly."

Well you yourself stated that things occured in spectrums, and with that I agree. But who decides what is a "behavioral anomaly" and what is a mental
disorder. I have seen people with weird individual behaviors who had otherwise normal lives. What caused them? Neurological malfunctions? Poor parenting? Malabsorption? Does it need to be treated? Some would say if it interferes with their function in their daily lives. But who makes that call. I see the patients doing it. That old song where the wife goes, "Doctor please, some more of these, outside the door, she took four more". This is where another spectrum disorder occurs, the gradual and increase of intervention for the problems in our lives. You've heard the comercials, "Are you sad? Do you no longer find pleasure in things you used to? You may be depressed."
Yes there is real depression. And intervention needs to occur. I am saying that our culture is moving in to a dangerous area where negative emotions are denied expression and only healthy ones are allowed. It is not a good thing.

I assumed that you did, as you are the one that referred to a "behavioral anomaly."

Psychotropic medications have allowed any number of individuals who are severely ill to live relatively independent and functional lives. Without their medication, they would be relegated to an institution due to the extreme nature of their symptoms. To suggest that these individuals should not be medicated is absurd.

Obviously you don't know much about the treatment of most mental disorders. Therapy encourages the expression of negative emotions in a healthy way. It is the supression of these negative emotions, and the unhealthy expression of such, that causes much of the symptomology.

 

[jillio]

Were you aware that family practioners and physicians assistants in Oregon are allowed to prescribe antidepressents?

Yes, I am.

 

[fredfam1]

She experienced no GI symptoms? Was the asthma treated? A suicide attempt was the first and only symptom of Malabsorption Syndrome?

Do you have an example of a behavioral anomaly?

She had no GI symptom. The asthma was treated begining at the age of four. The mother had taken this child to the doctor at 8 months due to runny eyes and runny nose and raspy sounding breathing and asked if it could be asthma because that ran in the family. The doctor said, "babies this young don't get asthma".( I know that a few of the family members did have GI symptoms, but not her and the mother had chronic anemia of unknown origin)

 

[fredfam1]

And, if she had ADHD, then her behavior was the result of a neuroligical disorder, and not a behavioral anomaly.

You still haven't explained how meds correct the neurologic deficits shown on the CAT scans of diagnosed ADHD patients when they are medicated and when they are not medicated, if, as you so claim, meds are completely uneccesary.

Before I answer that one can you give me a link to read on this please?

 

[jillio]

She had no GI symptom. The asthma was treated begining at the age of four. The mother had taken this child to the doctor at 8 months due to runny eyes and runny nose and raspy sounding breathing and asked if it could be asthma because that ran in the family. The doctor said, "babies this young don't get asthma".( I know that a few of the family members did have GI symptoms, but not her and the mother had chronic anemia of unknown origin)

Malabsorption Syndrome presents first with GI symptoms. Perhaps the naturopath misdiagnosed? Sounds more like allergic symptoms. And allergies don't create psychiatric distubances that would result in a suicide attempt.

 

[jillio]

Before I answer that one can you give me a link to read on this please?

Google ADHD. My references come from textbooks and professional documents and studies not available through a link. Maybe Google Ritalin. May be some of the photographs of the neurological differences there. Try the Merck Manual homepage. They often include photosI can share the following with you,however:

. Compared with controls, previously unmedicated children with ADHD demonstrated significantly smaller total cerebral volumes (overall F2.288=6.65; all pairwise comparisons Bonferroni corrected, -5.8%; P=.002) and cerebellar volumes (-6.2 %, F2,288=8.97, P<.001). Unmedicated children with ADHD also exhibited strikingly smaller total white matter volumes (F2.288=11.65) compared with controls (-10.7%, P<.001) and with medicated children with ADHD (-8.9%, P<.001). Volumetric abnormalities persisted with age in total and regional cerebral measures (P=.002) and in the cerebellum (P=.003). Caudate nucleus volumes were initially abnormal for patients with ADHD (P=.05), but diagnostic differences disappeared as caudate volumes decreased for patients and controls during adolescence. Results were comparable for male and female patients on all measures. Frontal and temporal gray matter, caudate, and cerebellar volumes correlated significantly with parent- and clinician-rated severity measures within the ADHD sample (Pearson coefficients between -0.16 and -0.26; all P values were <.05). Conclusions Developmental trajectories for all structures, except caudate, remain roughly parallel for patients and controls during childhood and adolescence, suggesting that genetic and/or early environmental influences on brain development in ADHD are fixed, nonprogressive, and unrelated to stimulant treatment.
Revue / Journal Title
JAMA, the journal of the American Medical Association ISSN 0098-7484

 

[fredfam1]

I assumed that you did, as you are the one that referred to a "behavioral anomaly."

Psychotropic medications have allowed any number of individuals who are severely ill to live relatively independent and functional lives. Without their medication, they would be relegated to an institution due to the extreme nature of their symptoms. To suggest that these individuals should not be medicated is absurd.

Obviously you don't know much about the treatment of most mental disorders. Therapy encourages the expression of negative emotions in a healthy way. It is the supression of these negative emotions, and the unhealthy expression of such, that causes much of the symptomology.

I did not suggest that all mental disorders should not be medicated.
I believe I was talking about the ones I have personal experience with.
Of course some people need some types of meds.
I think there is way less known about this area than the proffesionals like to pretend is known and I think that people are experimented on with these drugs. Look at the recomendations for treating depression. If one doesn't work, don't worry. Your doctor will try you on another type, till he gets it right. Why because there is no way of knowing what chemical is in short supply. Is it serratonin or some other neurotransmitter? This seems to be a shotgun approach to me. And I may not know all there is to know in this area, but I have seen what has happened to family and friends, and attended lectures at George Fox where one professor inparticular almost goes rabid over medication abuses in the psychiatric field. I know I haven't answered all your questions, but I need to get the kids to bed. More later.

 

[jillio]

I did not suggest that all mental disorders should not be medicated.
I believe I was talking about the ones I have personal experience with.
Of course some people need some types of meds.
I think there is way less known about this area than the proffesionals like to pretend is known and I think that people are experimented on with these drugs. Look at the recomendations for treating depression. If one doesn't work, don't worry. Your doctor will try you on another type, till he gets it right. Why because there is no way of knowing what chemical is in short supply. Is it serratonin or some other neurotransmitter? This seems to be a shotgun approach to me. And I may not know all there is to know in this area, but I have seen what has happened to family and friends, and attended lectures at George Fox where one professor inparticular almost goes rabid over medication abuses in the psychiatric field. I know I haven't answered all your questions, but I need to get the kids to bed. More later.

Just like all bacteria don't react favorably to the same antibiotic, all chemical imbalances will not react favorably to the same antidepressant. In fact, sometimes an antibiotic will work for one patient with a specific bacterial infection, but not for the next patient due to individual differences in metabolism, etc. Actually, it would be an excess of serotonin that creates a clinical form of depression in some people. SSRIs inhibit the reuptake if serotonin, thus decreasing the amount adhering to the receptors.

Depression can also be a secondary symptom to many other disorders. Etiology varies. Individual reactions to meds vary. There is the issue on noncompliance in medication schedules; a very real problem with anyone diagnosed with a disorder severe enough to require medication.

I too, have seen cases. I have seen some amazing results achieved with medication, and I have seen some disastrous results when medication has not been prescribed, or a client has become noncompliant with medication.

No one knows all there is to know. I know of no pratitioner who claims to, especially within the field of psychiatry. There are too many variables. Any practitioner who claims to know all is to be avoided at all costs, as chances are much greater that he/she knows too little rather than knowing all.

 

[fredfam1]

Just like all bacteria don't react favorably to the same antibiotic, all chemical imbalances will not react favorably to the same antidepressant. In fact, sometimes an antibiotic will work for one patient with a specific bacterial infection, but not for the next patient due to individual differences in metabolism, etc. Actually, it would be an excess of serotonin that creates a clinical form of depression in some people. SSRIs inhibit the reuptake if serotonin, thus decreasing the amount adhering to the receptors.

Depression can also be a secondary symptom to many other disorders. Etiology varies. Individual reactions to meds vary. There is the issue on noncompliance in medication schedules; a very real problem with anyone diagnosed with a disorder severe enough to require medication.

I too, have seen cases. I have seen some amazing results achieved with medication, and I have seen some disastrous results when medication has not been prescribed, or a client has become noncompliant with medication.

No one knows all there is to know. I know of no pratitioner who claims to, especially within the field of psychiatry. There are too many variables. Any practitioner who claims to know all is to be avoided at all costs, as chances are much greater that he/she knows too little rather than knowing all.

I would agree with you on this. And allowing general practitioneres and PAs to prescribe antidepressants is a serious mistake.

Here is an article you may be interested in.

An Interview with Joanna Moncrieff: The Myth of the Chemical Cure

 

[jillio]

I would agree with you on this. And allowing general practitioneres and PAs to prescribe antidepressants is a serious mistake.

Here is an article you may be interested in.

An Interview with Joanna Moncrieff: The Myth of the Chemical Cure

Thanks for the article. I will read it as soon as I have a few minutes, as I want to give it my complete attention.

You can thank insurance companies for the general physicians prescribing practices. Too many insurance companies do not cover psychiatric care, and will pay only minimum benefits for short term, brief therapies from an LPCC. LPCCs do not have prescribing privileges, and therefore, if they encounter a client that is ill enough that it is obvious that they would benefit from meds along with therapy, the client has no other option but to obtain the prescription from their physician. I agree that they should never prescribe without a complete consultation with the mental health professional, and that it should always be a collaborative realtionship between the 2 to insure that the client is indeed getting proper meds and being maintained and monitored properly, but to refuse to allow a physician to prescribe psychotropics at all would do a disservice to those who rely on insurance to cover their treatment costs. I do agree, however, that these meds should not be prescribed without a complete assessment from a mental health specialist.

 

[fredfam1]

Google ADHD. My references come from textbooks and professional documents and studies not available through a link. Maybe Google Ritalin. May be some of the photographs of the neurological differences there. Try the Merck Manual homepage. They often include photosI can share the following with you,however:

. Compared with controls, previously unmedicated children with ADHD demonstrated significantly smaller total cerebral volumes (overall F2.288=6.65; all pairwise comparisons Bonferroni corrected, -5.8%; P=.002) and cerebellar volumes (-6.2 %, F2,288=8.97, P<.001). Unmedicated children with ADHD also exhibited strikingly smaller total white matter volumes (F2.288=11.65) compared with controls (-10.7%, P<.001) and with medicated children with ADHD (-8.9%, P<.001). Volumetric abnormalities persisted with age in total and regional cerebral measures (P=.002) and in the cerebellum (P=.003). Caudate nucleus volumes were initially abnormal for patients with ADHD (P=.05), but diagnostic differences disappeared as caudate volumes decreased for patients and controls during adolescence. Results were comparable for male and female patients on all measures. Frontal and temporal gray matter, caudate, and cerebellar volumes correlated significantly with parent- and clinician-rated severity measures within the ADHD sample (Pearson coefficients between -0.16 and -0.26; all P values were <.05). Conclusions Developmental trajectories for all structures, except caudate, remain roughly parallel for patients and controls during childhood and adolescence, suggesting that genetic and/or early environmental influences on brain development in ADHD are fixed, nonprogressive, and unrelated to stimulant treatment.
Revue / Journal Title
JAMA, the journal of the American Medical Association ISSN 0098-7484

Caudate nucleus volume asymmetry predicts attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptomatology in children.
Schrimsher GW, Billingsley RL, Jackson EF, Moore BD 3rd.

Department of Psychology, University of Houston, Houston, TX, USA.

Clinical diagnosis of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is based on evaluation of behavioral functioning in three domains: inattentiveness, hyperactivity, and impulsivity. Caudate and frontal lobe function figures prominently in several neuroanatomic models of attentional functioning. Studies comparing children with and without ADHD have found differences in the size and symmetry of the caudate nuclei. Using multiple regression, we tested the hypothesis that caudate volume symmetry (log left minus log right caudate volume) measured from serial sagittal magnetic resonance images in a sample of nonreferred children (12 girls/15 boys, 7.0 to 16.6 years, 81 to 129 IQ) would predict the cumulative severity of parent-reported ADHD diagnostic behaviors beyond variance predicted by age, sex, and level of internalizing problems as measured by the Child Behavior Checklist. No child had been previously diagnosed with ADHD, although one child was found to meet diagnostic criteria based on the rating scale used for the study. The degree of caudate asymmetry significantly predicted cumulative severity ratings of inattentive behaviors (P = .015), uniquely accounting for 17.1% of the variance in inattention symptomatology over demographic variables and internalizing problems, which collectively predicted 28.9% of the variance. Caudate asymmetry uniquely accounted for only 4.3% of the variance in cumulative severity ratings of hyperactive/impulsive symptomatology over demographic variables and internalizing problems that collectively predicted 21.2% of the variance. A greater degree of right to left caudate volume asymmetry predicted subclinical inattentive behaviors in a sample of nonreferred children. This finding is congruent with neuroanatomic models of attention emphasizing lateralized alteration in prefrontal/striatal systems. The results support the view that clinical ADHD is the extreme of a behavioral continuum that extends into the normal population.

The last sentence in this article says the clinical view of ADHD is the extreme of a behavioral continuum that extends into the normal population. ADHD in its extreme is a behavioral anomoly. Caudate Volume is merely associated with it. It is not necessarily the cause. You know that association is not always related to cause and again, I think if caudate volume is responsible, the same thing can be accomplished with a skilled ND. For instance Ginko increases cerebral circulation. And after I took my daughter off of Ritilan, (due to side effects) I found that Ginko and a natural diet had equal effects as Ritilan. This is were the "cure" makes matters worse. Giving a child speed just so they can sit still in the classroom is abhorent and an abuse of medicine.

 

[fredfam1]

Thanks for the article. I will read it as soon as I have a few minutes, as I want to give it my complete attention.

You can thank insurance companies for the general physicians prescribing practices. Too many insurance companies do not cover psychiatric care, and will pay only minimum benefits for short term, brief therapies from an LPCC. LPCCs do not have prescribing privileges, and therefore, if they encounter a client that is ill enough that it is obvious that they would benefit from meds along with therapy, the client has no other option but to obtain the prescription from their physician. I agree that they should never prescribe without a complete consultation with the mental health professional, and that it should always be a collaborative realtionship between the 2 to insure that the client is indeed getting proper meds and being maintained and monitored properly, but to refuse to allow a physician to prescribe psychotropics at all would do a disservice to those who rely on insurance to cover their treatment costs. I do agree, however, that these meds should not be prescribed without a complete assessment from a mental health specialist.

Ahhh Jillio, an area of complete agreement. My father in law just recently had a stroke and again the insurance companies won't cover hyperbaric chamber treatments. Thats the first thing they do over in Europe. Such a shame because we had one so close by in McMinnville. Only professional atheltes have insured access. That should tell people right there that it works.

 

[jillio]

Caudate nucleus volume asymmetry predicts attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) symptomatology in children.
Schrimsher GW, Billingsley RL, Jackson EF, Moore BD 3rd.

Department of Psychology, University of Houston, Houston, TX, USA.

Clinical diagnosis of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is based on evaluation of behavioral functioning in three domains: inattentiveness, hyperactivity, and impulsivity. Caudate and frontal lobe function figures prominently in several neuroanatomic models of attentional functioning. Studies comparing children with and without ADHD have found differences in the size and symmetry of the caudate nuclei. Using multiple regression, we tested the hypothesis that caudate volume symmetry (log left minus log right caudate volume) measured from serial sagittal magnetic resonance images in a sample of nonreferred children (12 girls/15 boys, 7.0 to 16.6 years, 81 to 129 IQ) would predict the cumulative severity of parent-reported ADHD diagnostic behaviors beyond variance predicted by age, sex, and level of internalizing problems as measured by the Child Behavior Checklist. No child had been previously diagnosed with ADHD, although one child was found to meet diagnostic criteria based on the rating scale used for the study. The degree of caudate asymmetry significantly predicted cumulative severity ratings of inattentive behaviors (P = .015), uniquely accounting for 17.1% of the variance in inattention symptomatology over demographic variables and internalizing problems, which collectively predicted 28.9% of the variance. Caudate asymmetry uniquely accounted for only 4.3% of the variance in cumulative severity ratings of hyperactive/impulsive symptomatology over demographic variables and internalizing problems that collectively predicted 21.2% of the variance. A greater degree of right to left caudate volume asymmetry predicted subclinical inattentive behaviors in a sample of nonreferred children. This finding is congruent with neuroanatomic models of attention emphasizing lateralized alteration in prefrontal/striatal systems. The results support the view that clinical ADHD is the extreme of a behavioral continuum that extends into the normal population.

The last sentence in this article says the clinical view of ADHD is the extreme of a behavioral continuum that extends into the normal population. ADHD in its extreme is a behavioral anomoly. Caudate Volume is merely associated with it. It is not necessarily the cause. You know that association is not always related to cause and again, I think if caudate volume is responsible, the same thing can be accomplished with a skilled ND. For instance Ginko increases cerebral circulation. And after I took my daughter off of Ritilan, (due to side effects) I found that Ginko and a natural diet had equal effects as Ritilan. This is were the "cure" makes matters worse. Giving a child speed just so they can sit still in the classroom is abhorent and an abuse of medicine.

ADHD manifests in behavioral symptoms. That does not mean that it is a behavioral disorder, or that it is a behavioral anomaly. It simply means that the behvioral manifestations are easily observable, and an indicator of neurological dysfunction. Because we can't see the brain at work unless we using diagnostic tests such as a CAT scan, we must rely on behavioral manifestations that can be readily observed as part of the diagnostic procedure. Just as when a child has a case of the chicken pox....we can't see the virus in their blood stream, but we can see the spots on the skin that are indicative of viral infection.

I'm glad that Ginko and a natural diet worked for your daughter, and I would suggest that she was at the mild end of the continuum. However, for amny children, other interventions are, indeed, necessary, to allow them to function on a day to day basis.

It is not just a matter of increasing circulation within the brain. It is the way the brain reacts to various stimulation. Actual response is decreased in particular areas of the brain in ADHD patients, and it is not circulation that is decreased, but synaptic response.

Any continuum of behavior will extend into the non-affected population in specific circumstance. That is why a pattern of continued behaviors outside that which can be expected in the non-affected population must be observed to come to a definitive diagnosis. For instance, symptoms of depression extend into the non-affected population and are considered to be normal response to various events. If one looses a loved one, and responds with situational depressive symptoms, it is not evidence of a clinical disorder. However, if one exhibits depressive symptoms over a period of time without situational triggers that can account for an epected response, it is indication that further evaluation is needed for clinical depression.

 

[Bottesini]

As usual I will probably just get told I don't understand what people are saying.

Why are you arguing medication in an Asperger's thread?

Yes I actually know I have Asperger's syndrome. I was upgraded in adulthood from a childhood diagnosis of atypical autism.

The only medication normally given to Asperger's patients is on an as needed basis for the symptoms of anxiety that usually accompany the disorder.

 

[Jiro]

As usual I will probably just get told I don't understand what people are saying.

Why are you arguing medication in an Asperger's thread?

Yes I actually know I have Asperger's syndrome. I was upgraded in adulthood from a childhood diagnosis of atypical autism.

The only medication normally given to Asperger's patients is on an as needed basis for the symptoms of anxiety that usually accompany the disorder.

Oh? what are you intensively focused on?

 

[Bottesini]

Oh? what are you intensively focused on?

At the moment amassing huge collection of children's magic books as like Harry Potter.

Also maps.

Also several different big word of day calendars.

 

[fredfam1]

ADHD manifests in behavioral symptoms. That does not mean that it is a behavioral disorder, or that it is a behavioral anomaly. It simply means that the behvioral manifestations are easily observable, and an indicator of neurological dysfunction. Because we can't see the brain at work unless we using diagnostic tests such as a CAT scan, we must rely on behavioral manifestations that can be readily observed as part of the diagnostic procedure. Just as when a child has a case of the chicken pox....we can't see the virus in their blood stream, but we can see the spots on the skin that are indicative of viral infection.

I'm glad that Ginko and a natural diet worked for your daughter, and I would suggest that she was at the mild end of the continuum. However, for amny children, other interventions are, indeed, necessary, to allow them to function on a day to day basis.

It is not just a matter of increasing circulation within the brain. It is the way the brain reacts to various stimulation. Actual response is decreased in particular areas of the brain in ADHD patients, and it is not circulation that is decreased, but synaptic response.

Any continuum of behavior will extend into the non-affected population in specific circumstance. That is why a pattern of continued behaviors outside that which can be expected in the non-affected population must be observed to come to a definitive diagnosis. For instance, symptoms of depression extend into the non-affected population and are considered to be normal response to various events. If one looses a loved one, and responds with situational depressive symptoms, it is not evidence of a clinical disorder. However, if one exhibits depressive symptoms over a period of time without situational triggers that can account for an epected response, it is indication that further evaluation is needed for clinical depression.

Would you include dysthymia? This is treated with SRIs typically when I think it should be treated with cognitive behavioral and talk therapy and if it is affecting their life then a liscensed psychiatrist who would be willing to consult with an ND should be used. It has been my personal experience that this is made worse with meds, not better and I don't believe it is a psychiatric illness but learned a learned cognitive behavior.

 

[Jiro]

At the moment amassing huge collection of children's magic books as like Harry Potter.

Also maps.

Also several different big word of day calendars.

hhmm... interesting... I can see why this syndrome is somewhat controversial and difficult to diagnose. What you just said sounds like an avid hobbyist or collector.

 

[fredfam1]

At the moment amassing huge collection of children's magic books as like Harry Potter.

Also maps.

Also several different big word of day calendars.

Are they maps of Potter land?

Anyway I think how this discussion relates to the Aspergers thread is how meds can be prescribed unecessarily for things that in other times would have been chalked up to a person being eccentric. By pulling my daughter out of school and homeschooling, which decreased her stress levels thereby decreasing her inapporpriate behaviors and combineing Ginko with a natural diet. There are also natural ways to treat anxiety but requires a sympathetic doctor and client compliance.