Am I (D)eaf?

[Byrdie714]

Come on naisho....give Byrdie his mankini before he throws a hissy fit!

Is it byrd's bad day?

Didn't read all of the topics, but did you get him moded or something?

Ok, here you go Byrd.
I made it PG-13 so anyone can see it without problems in this topic.

To [Byrdie], I love you! From Kazakhstan with love.

What? No skin?! No naisho in a mankini?!

 

[Jolie77]

For the members of the deaf community that don't understand the Deaf Culture part of it is probably due to not being exposed to the historical part of it.

Yes we have books where one can read up on the injustices of being deaf. Famous deaf people, etc

However to truly understand the culture aspect of it is when one has historical "deaf-modification" techniques from the 1800's, books on educating the Deaf, the old fashion hearing aids, old speech equipment teaching deaf, the old TTY, among others that has been passed down from generation to generation in the family. It definately gives one a greater appreciation of their Deaf family and the trials and tribulations that one had to go through.

I agree - In a sense, no matter how many books are out there that are related to the trial and tribulations of how us deaf people have went through over these years; They will be able to get a glimpse but in order to truly understand about it - They would have to exactly to experience it theirselves. Nevertheless, Such exposure of this is a good start.

Also - I'd like to include that there are folklores that has been passed down from generation to generation. That alone can also give an insight as well.

Jolie, I was reading your response on my phone and I was like,

But now I can see it on a screen, I have to say I agree with your statement with two thumbs up and grinning.

for your input - Although, The Borat would just may look find and dandy with a pink mankini instead of a green one.

 

[Berry]

Either or, logic, low context thinking, has never made sense to me, never will. Circles and strings make sense, with mostly circles once you tie the ends of the strings together. Fanatical audists "You're not hearing enough": Fanatical Deaf "You're not Deaf enough", = Archie Bunker and George Jefferson: Two peas in the same pod with little or no difference between them.

A better question, and the one I think yields the most understanding is where do you fall on the string? A zero gradient line for those of mathematical bent.

Jillio indicates Deaf culture is acquired over a period of time and contact. So I have to ask myself, "If I had never heard of Deaf culture (Deaf World when I was a kid) and never heard of ASL; what would I have in common with Deaf culture, if anything?"

I'm taking the following from my attitudes as an 8 year old prior to meeting Deaf people.

When I was a kid hearing adults made fun of Italians and Jews because "They can't talk without using their hands," and they would call any animation of face or body as "Histrionic behavior," relating it somehow to childish or psychotic behavior. I would think, "That is crazy, how else can a person show how they really feel or convey what really happened?" I would see a person sitting motionless in their chair talking in a monotone saying "I'm really excited about this," and I don't believe them because they sure don't show it. When I got around Deaf people I thought "WOW. Here are people who really know how to show what they mean."

If I had never met a D/deaf person in my life and I knew sign language existed I would understand how audism would be oppressive and from a sane hearing person's standpoint is ludicrous. If signed languages did not exist I would believe they should.

I once had a discussion with a hearing person about minorities, specifically black people and disabled people. His attitude was "The person who can do the job the best should be the one to get the job." My reply was "Wrong." A level of competence should be established and once that level is met who can do it better should not be a factor. The deciding factor should be who needs the job the most, which in most cases is the minority or disabled person. The hearing man called me an idiot but I had a similar conversation with a Deaf man and his views were close to my own.

In the first sentence I mention three types of thinking that have never made sense to me. I have been told there are hearing cultures that employ high context thinking but I have yet to come across one. People in Deaf culture have the same problems with it I do.

So my personal conclusion is that even though I am hearing and even though I am not deaf or Deaf and even if I never met a deaf or Deaf person I would still be more Deaf than hearing.

I just wouldn't know it.

 

[November Gypsy]

Alright. I have to ask a silly question. Bear with me...but I really want to know...

What is the difference between deaf and Deaf (aside from the fact that one is capitilized and the other isn't). I keep seeing the two differented, but I don't know why. You'll have to excuse me, this is all very new to me. Thank you for your patience!

 

[Calvin]

Mod Note:

Thread's merged.

 

[Berry]

What is the difference between deaf and Deaf (aside from the fact that one is capitilized and the other isn't). I keep seeing the two differented, but I don't know why. You'll have to excuse me, this is all very new to me. Thank you for your patience!

.

I think everyone who has been around here a while has given this one a shot, just for the heck of it I will too.

Let us start with what everyone can agree on and work our way to what people disagree on.

First the physical thing:

If you can hear normal conversation, with or without a hearing aid, most people will call you hearing: you are hearing. If you can't, most people will call you deaf: you are deaf. Somewhere in between people are HOH or hard of hearing.

Now move on to the cultural thing:

Every individual can be defined according to what group or groups they do or do not belong to. These groups include cultures, subcultures, organizations, gangs, societies, professions, and even forums such as AllDeaf. In schools and workplaces they are often called "clicks". Most people belong to more than one group.

Each group demands certain basic agreements in order to be accepted within that group. Anyone who does not share those agreements will not be accepted and anyone who opposes those agreements will be seen as the opposition at best, the enemy at worst. Most people never think about or question the agreements they share with the group -- They accept these agreements as "natural".

That last part is where it gets a bit tricky:

Groups have internal structures:

Part of every group's basic agreements is how it sees itself and part is how it sees other groups. When a person from one group meets another they have never met before they don't know how to react and tend to be frustrated, confused, or adversarial. This is often how a hearing person reacts to a deaf person the first time they meet one.

Within every group is a core of fanatics who demand complete and total conformance to a very strict standard that is almost impossible to be met by anyone except themselves. However the majority of any group will accept a wide diversity so long as basic criteria are met.

Groups have external structures:

Some groups have more power than others. This can be because of money, influence, or social recognition. Football players and cheerleaders on campus, management in the workplace, etc. A typical clash of cultures on campus is the socially and physically powerful football player competing with the socially and physically powerless nerd for the body and or love of the newest cheerleader who hasn't quite sealed her alliances yet.

From my poking around AllDeaf I believe the criteria for acceptance here is respect for Deaf people, respect for ASL, and a recognition that even if audists aren't all evil people and even if some of their tools are helpful, oralism is not the answer.

Because I share these agreements I decided to become a participating member of this group.

How about you?

In the Deaf World there are two extremes:

Audists who want to turn deaf people into imitation hearing people who can be ignored. The dedicated core of this group wants to force their views on Deaf people no matter how much they object "for their own good." Where it gets really confusing is there are deaf people who subscribe to the audist's model. Which is kind of like discovering the head of the local KKK is a black person. These people are, without question, little "d" deaf. In general audists have more social power than Deaf because they are hearing people talking to hearing people about deaf people before Deaf people get a chance to get a sign in edgewise.

Deaf people who say "To hell with that." We want equality, we want it now, we want our own language (ASL in America) we want equal access on our own terms, we want the jobs we are able to do (not just the jobs you palm off on us) we want recognition that we are as good or better than hearing people, and WE WILL NOT BE IGNORED.

Now there are some hard core Deaf who really hate hearing people, and here I draw the line there because I'm hearing myself and I really like me.

But for the rest: Yeah, I'm there.

How about you?

 

[shel90]

I guess that means I am deaf and my brother is Deaf?

 

[Berry]

I guess that means I am deaf and my brother is Deaf?

I seriously doubt it. I don't know about your brother but from your posts I think of you as Deaf.

But then I can't accept you or reject you as Deaf either seen as I am hearing and not part of any Deaf community. I can only tell you how I think of you and you can only tell me how you think of yourself. If I were around the Deaf community where you live they could tell me how they think of you.

Also I personally believe either or situations are artificial constructs that are sometimes handy to use but do not occur naturally. Therefore I don't really believe in the question "Am I (D)eaf?".

There are two questions here. Are you accepted in the Deaf community as Deaf? Then you are Deaf. That is fairly either or. However it is extremely rare for anyone to be accepted every member of any group as being "the real thing." My wife belongs to several art groups and every once in a while I will hear arguments about which members are "real" artists and which are not.

The other question is "How closely do your attitudes and ideas reflect the Deaf community?" or "How much do you agree with the Deaf view as opposed to the audist or hearing view?" This should be a personal thing and should not be affected by how you are accepted or rejected by any particular group or click within that group.

By the way I do not consider myself as Deaf or an expert on Deaf. I am fascinated by culture, anthropology, linguistics, and across the board all cultures, including Deaf culture, show basic similarities.

I consider myself as part of the signing community. I have a lot of agreements with Deaf culture. One of them a desire for everyone in the world to sign ASL.

There are things about Deaf culture I will never know.

But I know who I am and what I believe -- And I think you do too.

 

[Jolie77]

Should we get rid of small d in Deaf?

I was surfing on youtube earlier and came across this video (b)log. I thought it was interesting to have a look.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0zkQPH6-LM]YouTube - Should we get rid of small d in Deaf?[/ame]

Here's the transcript --

Transcript: The topic about small d and big D for Deaf bothers me. I don't know about you but I have mixed feelings because it splits the groups as those who are labeled as small d and big D.

According to Deaf in America, Voices from a Culture, I am raising a question if the idea if outdated. Why? In 1972, James Woodward proposed "to use the lowercase deaf when referring to the audiological condition of not hearing, and the uppercase Deaf when referring to a particular group of deaf people who share a language -- ASL and a culture." ~From Deaf in America, Voices from a Culture

I used to think that way before as I had studied about it back in the 80's. At that time, most people seemed to agree about the concept. But now my thinking about it has changed. Why? I have several reasons to get rid of small d/big D concept but still keep the big D only. Why?

Even a person who don't identify themselves as a Deaf person and is not immersed in ASL and Deaf culture call themselves alternatively such as hearing impaired, hard of hearing or a person with a hearing loss as they avoided labeling themselves deaf which is their decision so why should we continue to use small d? What should we do with a small d in Deaf? Just get rid of it! But continue to use big D. Why? Here are several justifications.

Must we know the language? Yes, it is important but allow me to present the points. People, in general, who belong to their ethnic groups like Italian, African, etc. Do they use small i in Italian, nor small a in African although not all of them know the language or even culture especially here in America but we still refer them capital I in Italian-American or a in African-American. I am Italian but I don't know the language so should I call myself small i? Heck, no because it doesn't work that way. So why should it be different for the Deaf?

The big D in Deaf is used regardless of not having full understanding of ASL or Deaf culture. They will continue to go through a process experiencing what we call Deafhood. They will get to that point. Let's say when they finally get to the meat of ASL and Deaf culture, then they "graduated" to earn a big D? No! Deafhood is a process. That's why this kind of thinking is considered new that caused me to question whether or not that topic in the book is considered outdated.

Do you think that no, we should keep on labeling small d and big D or keep the big D for all regardless of not having the knowledge of ASL and culture and that big D represents a cultural group anyway. So what do you think?

Needless to say - I think that she has brought up some valid points about the d/Deaf issue. There was a part that got to me when she made a note of referring to be labeled as an Italian, American, Mexican, etc. That also applies to being Deaf.

I think being Deaf should be whole as a group and not to refer anyone else to being (d)eaf because that also "separates" the group when it shouldn't be the case.

 

[Bottesini]

I agree with that Jolie.

 

[faire_jour]

I was surfing on youtube earlier and came across this video (b)log. I thought it was interesting to have a look.

YouTube - Should we get rid of small d in Deaf?

Here's the transcript --



Needless to say - I think that she has brought up some valid points about the d/Deaf issue. There was a part that got to me when she made a note of referring to be labeled as an Italian, American, Mexican, etc. That also applies to being Deaf.

I think being Deaf should be whole as a group and not to refer anyone else to being (d)eaf because that also "separates" the group when it shouldn't be the case.

What if they choose not to be part of the Deaf community. What about anti-sign CI users? Should they be called "Deaf"?

 

[Frisky Feline]

What if they choose not to be part of the Deaf community. What about anti-sign CI users? Should they be called "Deaf"?

They can option their alternative words is "i have hearing loss" in their own term than Deaf.

 

[Berry]

I don't think big D little d causes a separation in the d/Deaf community as it describes one. There is a HUGE difference in attitude.

Let me give an example using two D/deaf people:

Shel has made the statement on this forum that if she has to make a choice between her job and her ties to the Deaf community she will give up her job before she will give up her Deaf friends.

A while back I met a man who informed me by written note that he has been totally deaf for over ten years. When I tried to sign to him he wrote a note in reply saying he was not an F'ing retard and if it was too dam much trouble for me to write notes back and forth to him I could take my backside and any other salient parts and cart them off to hell.

I'll leave it to you to decide who is Deaf, who is deaf, and why.

 

[shel90]

I don't think big D little d causes a separation in the d/Deaf community as it describes one. There is a HUGE difference in attitude.

Let me give an example using two D/deaf people:

Shel has made the statement on this forum that if she has to make a choice between her job and her ties to the Deaf community she will give up her job before she will give up her Deaf friends.

A while back I met a man who informed me by written note that he has been totally deaf for over ten years. When I tried to sign to him he wrote a note in reply saying he was not an F'ing retard and if it was too dam much trouble for me to write notes back and forth to him I could take my backside and any other salient parts and cart them off to hell.

I'll leave it to you to decide who is Deaf, who is deaf, and why.

It is more complicated than that...the primary reason I said that is if I work hard at my job and everything and get punished for hanging out with my friends who happened to have Deaf children who attend my workplace, then that would show me that my workplace doesnt value me as an employer. I wouldnt want to work at a place that punishes me for what I do in my personal life (non-criminal activities).

If my friends told me to choose between them and my job, I would choose my job over them cuz good friends wouldnt do that to someone.

 

[Berry]

It is more complicated than that...the primary reason I said that is if I work hard at my job and everything and get punished for hanging out with my friends who happened to have Deaf children who attend my workplace, then that would show me that my workplace doesnt value me as an employer. I wouldnt want to work at a place that punishes me for what I do in my personal life (non-criminal activities).

If my friends told me to choose between them and my job, I would choose my job over them cuz good friends wouldnt do that to someone

.

More complicated, and I agree with your reasoning totally, but I do not believe it significantly changes the difference in the cultural position between you and the man I met who ( to my mind ) felt being Deaf and dealing with Deaf people or learning ASL was beneath him.

He is deaf but he sees ASL and any concession to deafness as social stigmatism.

Actually the reference to Italians made me laugh because it is most likely made by someone who knows little about Italians. I happened to have some friends in an area of town called "Little Italy" by outsiders. To them the entire area was just comprised of a bunch of Italians.

But the neighborhood itself was split up. Each group had different traditions, history, food, etc. There were Northern Italians, Southern Italians, Sicilians, and one small group who prided themselves on being Florentines.

Is a man born in Tehran Iranian or Persian?

My smugly college educated boss will tell you there is no difference and if I'd actually learned something in school I would know that --

But there is a difference: A big one.

 

[Jolie77]

What if they choose not to be part of the Deaf community. What about anti-sign CI users? Should they be called "Deaf"?

If they chose not to be part of the Deaf community - That's their choice. We can't tell them differently.

As for these CI Anti-Signers; They are Deaf one way or another regardless of them being anti-signers. What I am trying to say is - If they want to be part of the community, they can be part of it. If not, Again, That's their choice.

 

[Lissa]

Would you call me Deaf? I sign with my deaf friends but I dont sign at home, i attend deaf events etc.

 

[Bottesini]

Would you call me Deaf? I sign with my deaf friends but I dont sign at home, i attend deaf events etc.

Yes I would!!

 

[Buffalo]

You can hear stuff you don't want to know. I found out I am a carrier for sure of hemachromotosis and may have it, (it was not clear if I do).

Genetic testing could make you hesitant to live life.

On the other hand, it is good to know what you have so you can be prepared for it and do something to lessen the impact. I won't like to be caught off guard when I come down with something bad. Why don't you want to find out if you have hemochromotosis so you can go for blood lettings to get the iron level down?

 

[Bottesini]

On the other hand, it is good to know what you have so you can be prepared for it and do something to lessen the impact. I won't like to be caught off guard when I come down with something bad. Why don't you want to find out if you have hemochromotosis so you can go for blood lettings to get the iron level down?

My dad did have it and even with the blood removal he was aged ten years past his real age and in very poor health. He died in a car accident so I don't know how his life would have finished.

And it isn't that I don't want to keep the iron levels down just that I was happier before. But you have made me think with what you just said that I am not very logical. You have made an extremely good point.

It really is good that the doctor knows to watch me for this.