All about electric cars!

[The Highlander]

I don't think for a long time. The root cause of low oil price nowadays was caused by several factors. Many oil exporter countries outside of OPEC wants sell their oil, not willing to cut production generally because they need money badly, Russia for example, they depend on oil for their economy why they need to cut production just to hurt their economy? Its pretty much double edge sword for them. On top of that problem, we now know much more oil reserves out there meaning supply of oil gets very high thus giving pressure on oil price to remain low. On top of that, government now requires increase fuel efficiency vehicles which won't help solve the over-supply of oil. Think about it, EV does not even need a drop of oil, what happens to the supply of oil when EV becomes mainstreamed vehicle? Its going to remain over-supply, result much lower oil price that lead to attraction using oil instead of alternative fuel which is expensive in the end.

One thing I could grateful for is that we the United States never want government to get involved with oil business, leaving only private citizen owning it, now that the private owner scramble to save their money, cut their bottom line, result? We won't be suffering like Russians does. Capitalism at best!

The truth is, the only way to have EV as mainstream type of vehicle is when we have ultra low on oil reserves, or depleted oil reserves; which is not going to happen for a damn long time, highly doubt in our lifetime.

Maybe you don't know, China is sitting on one of world's largest oil reserves and China refused to touch it, not willing to sell them to anyone... How it going to help with world's oil over-supply woes?

FYI one of my buddy asked me, and my friend to install electric outlet for their future EV. We asked for specs, WOW! Its bigger than you think, it requires 40 amperes with 240V outlet. That is a lot of juice, similar cost to run two central air conditioner/heat-pump. So think about it, having more EV will require revamp the power grid because at present, the power grid capacity is around 95% leaving only 5% So EV is not the true cost efficient solution after all.

How many watts out of 40 amps at 240V? Code requires no more than 80% of rated current, so 80% of 40A is 32A multiply with 240V equals 7,680 watts of power to recharge EV!

So? Which you like 10 hours till battery full for 120 volts or 1 hours on 240 volts? Don't mean you have charge it daily. Probably once a week for 295 miles depend on everyone.

Also there is three types of power as 120v, 240v, and 480v. Mostly Fast charge stations and business use 480v and charge probably 15 minutes or less to full batteries.

 

[CrazyPaul]

General Motors plans to start selling an affordable electric car in 2017 that will be able to go 200 miles on a single charge.

GM plans to start selling a $30,000 battery powered family car called the Chevrolet Bolt sometime in 2017. Price is cheaper than Tesla at $70,000.

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/09/wsj-gm-chevrolet-bolt-electric-vehicle/

That makes it a direct competitor to Tesla's Model 3, which has very, very similar specs and pricing.

The $70,000 model is a higher-quality (fancy) one. Tesla has another model, "Model 3" which is cheaper ($35,000).

 

[CrazyPaul]

It seems hard for u to grasp the prediction and others opinion.

Simple, I dont predict there will be widely supported EV, period.

Just like too many people predicted we will be seeing 150 to 200 dollars a barrel for oil, has it happened? Nope, It has never happened. 5 years ago, I predicted that oil price will retreat back to less than 50 dollars a barrel, now we are seeing it again.

Like Jiro said, don't buy it. Anyway, we will always have EV which is part of the future. It will not go down. Of course, you know that once there's a new technology, it will improve as years go by, right?

 

[diehardbiker]

So? Which you like 10 hours till battery full for 120 volts or 1 hours on 240 volts? Don't mean you have charge it daily. Probably once a week for 295 miles depend on everyone.

Also there is three types of power as 120v, 240v, and 480v. Mostly Fast charge stations and business use 480v and charge probably 15 minutes or less to full batteries.

Voltage itself is not what it cost for electricity, what cost us electrically is called power, aka watts, you could choose voltage regardless, it does not reduce the power needed, nor increase, thus is why I mentioned 7kw is a lot.

Mathematically they all are the same, you could get 120v going 80 amperes, or going 40 amperes at 240v still both same wattage, 7kw.

My point is its not yet economically attractive. Sure you can buy EV thinking its going save you money due to high oil prices, now they are back to cheap... also why would I spend 50k for ev when I could buy same but gasoline model for the half of cost of EV?
The only time we will see popularity is when we are actually running out of oil reserves.

 

[The Highlander]

Voltage itself is not what it cost for electricity, what cost us electrically is called power, aka watts, you could choose voltage regardless, it does not reduce the power needed, nor increase, thus is why I mentioned 7kw is a lot.

Mathematically they all are the same, you could get 120v going 80 amperes, or going 40 amperes at 240v still both same wattage, 7kw.

My point is its not yet economically attractive. Sure you can buy EV thinking its going save you money due to high oil prices, now they are back to cheap... also why would I spend 50k for ev when I could buy same but gasoline model for the half of cost of EV?
The only time we will see popularity is when we are actually running out of oil reserves.

I suggests you read whole this thread first.

The $70,000 model is a higher-quality (fancy) one. Tesla has another model, "Model 3" which is cheaper ($35,000).

You don't have to buy $50k for fancy car.

Electricity still cheaper and less health risk than gasoline/diesel.

The average cost of electricity in the US is 12 cents per kWh and you complained about that? Wow. Wow.

 

[Jiro]

Voltage itself is not what it cost for electricity, what cost us electrically is called power, aka watts, you could choose voltage regardless, it does not reduce the power needed, nor increase, thus is why I mentioned 7kw is a lot.

Mathematically they all are the same, you could get 120v going 80 amperes, or going 40 amperes at 240v still both same wattage, 7kw.

My point is its not yet economically attractive. Sure you can buy EV thinking its going save you money due to high oil prices, now they are back to cheap... also why would I spend 50k for ev when I could buy same but gasoline model for the half of cost of EV?
The only time we will see popularity is when we are actually running out of oil reserves.

we will never reach the stage in the course of humanity where we'll actually be anywhere close to even a warning that the oil reserve will run out.

 

[Jiro]

Voltage itself is not what it cost for electricity, what cost us electrically is called power, aka watts, you could choose voltage regardless, it does not reduce the power needed, nor increase, thus is why I mentioned 7kw is a lot.

Mathematically they all are the same, you could get 120v going 80 amperes, or going 40 amperes at 240v still both same wattage, 7kw.

My point is its not yet economically attractive. Sure you can buy EV thinking its going save you money due to high oil prices, now they are back to cheap... also why would I spend 50k for ev when I could buy same but gasoline model for the half of cost of EV?
The only time we will see popularity is when we are actually running out of oil reserves.

a gas-powered vehicle was never economically attractive either.

gas price has already started to go up and it will go up more after winter... which is same as always for past several years. gas price always drop prior to winter.... and goes up after winter. summer fuel is always expensive.

 

[caz12]

went in one today

 

[diehardbiker]

Nope, you don't get the consequences when EV gets mainstream, we will max out the national electric grid easily which requires expansion on grid, these cost WILL pass down to customer with higher rates, hence the concept of supply n demand. Just like oil, the more demand, less supply equals higher cost of oil verses less demand, over supply results lower oil price. This will apply on electricity usage, meaning once we hit the grid max, meaning what? Undersupply, with higher demand = HIGHER RATE.

Don't forget the truth, concept of EV have been around >LONGER< than gasoline vehicles, don't you realize that?

I suggests you read whole this thread first.



You don't have to buy $50k for fancy car.

Electricity still cheaper and less health risk than gasoline/diesel.

The average cost of electricity in the US is 12 cents per kWh and you complained about that? Wow. Wow.

 

[CrazyPaul]

You don't have to buy $50k for fancy car.

Electricity still cheaper and less health risk than gasoline/diesel.

The average cost of electricity in the US is 12 cents per kWh and you complained about that? Wow. Wow.

If your message above was for me, you misunderstood me, OMG. I pointed out that you can't compare Chevy Bolt to $70,000 Tesla Model S which is first-class but you can compare it to the new model by Tesla called Model 3 which is very similar to Bolt based on specs and price. Re-read the article in the link you provided. That's all.

That makes it a direct competitor to Tesla's Model 3, which has very, very similar specs and pricing.

Get it now?

 

[Jiro]

Nope, you don't get the consequences when EV gets mainstream, we will max out the national electric grid easily which requires expansion on grid, these cost WILL pass down to customer with higher rates, hence the concept of supply n demand. Just like oil, the more demand, less supply equals higher cost of oil verses less demand, over supply results lower oil price. This will apply on electricity usage, meaning once we hit the grid max, meaning what? Undersupply, with higher demand = HIGHER RATE.

why are you thinking with 1990's mindset? you do know that our technology is still progressing, right? Murphy's Law, remember? or you're not aware of it?

Don't forget the truth, concept of EV have been around >LONGER< than gasoline vehicles, don't you realize that?

so did plastic but we've gotten better and more advanced. back then - we didn't have anything good enough for EV. now we're getting there. who ever thought a calculator would be much more powerful than the most powerful computer in 1980's? who ever thought we would have a device that would fit in our pocket that can take pix, call people, play music, etc.?

Tesla is already developing a revolutionary technology for power plants. there are literally dozens of developments that would meet our power needs.

 

[The Highlander]

If your message above was for me, you misunderstood me, OMG. I pointed out that you can't compare Chevy Bolt to $70,000 Tesla Model S which is first-class but you can compare it to the new model by Tesla called Model 3 which is very similar to Bolt based on specs and price. Re-read the article in the link you provided. That's all.

Get it now?

LOL. I was point out to DHB. Not you. Since he don't know nothing about EV vehicle and he think $50k EV and it's last 60 miles range.

 

[The Highlander]

Nope, you don't get the consequences when EV gets mainstream, we will max out the national electric grid easily which requires expansion on grid, these cost WILL pass down to customer with higher rates, hence the concept of supply n demand. Just like oil, the more demand, less supply equals higher cost of oil verses less demand, over supply results lower oil price. This will apply on electricity usage, meaning once we hit the grid max, meaning what? Undersupply, with higher demand = HIGHER RATE.

Don't forget the truth, concept of EV have been around >LONGER< than gasoline vehicles, don't you realize that?

There is no such max out for national electric grid.

Because you don't understand how EV's system works between 1800's and today. First electric cars was like 20 MPH and probably under 10 miles range. Today electric cars over 200 mph so easy and around 300 miles range. Looks like you are clueless about type of battries as Acid, Alkaline, Lithium, Nickel, Zinc, and MORE.

Your statement is false

 

[CrazyPaul]

LOL. I was point out to DHB. Not you. Since he don't know nothing about EV vehicle and he think $50k EV and it's last 60 miles range.

Simple, let him talk. Then 10 years from now, he will be shocked if he's still alive. "OMG, EV can fly?"

 

[Jiro]

There is no such max out for national electric grid.

Because you don't understand how EV's system works between 1800's and today. First electric cars was like 20 MPH and probably under 10 miles range. Today electric cars over 200 mph so easy and around 300 miles range. Looks like you are clueless about type of battries as Acid, Alkaline, Lithium, Nickel, Zinc, and MORE.

Your statement is false

in the future - there won't be a national power grid. it's outdated and ridiculously expensive. we will have multiple power grids that are independent of each other.

if we are really progressing technologically, we should not be having a national power by mid-late 21st century.

 

[The Highlander]

in the future - there won't be a national power grid. it's outdated and ridiculously expensive. we will have multiple power grids that are independent of each other.

if we are really progressing technologically, we should not be having a national power by mid-late 21st century.

I believe it would happen very soon.

 

[diehardbiker]

Prove it, can you?

Maybe you dont know, power grid is shared national wide, that is to maintain efficiency on all fuel being burnt for power generators. Right now, its very balanced system, I dont believe your claims that they are outdated. And I know for the fact that its harder to maintain true power balance by breaking up into smaller sections. Have you notice much improvement with power in the last 40 years? Over the last 40 years multiple power grid have joined up, result much less black outs and brown outs. I do remember seeing brown outs but apparently not anymore, thats due to nationalwide efficiency operation.

in the future - there won't be a national power grid. it's outdated and ridiculously expensive. we will have multiple power grids that are independent of each other.

if we are really progressing technologically, we should not be having a national power by mid-late 21st century.

 

[Jiro]

Prove it, can you?

http://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/energy/the-smarter-grid/clark-gellings-the-future-of-the-power-grid
https://www.leidos.com/perspectives/the-future-demands-smarter-power-grids-that-enable-the-two-way-f
http://www.edf.org/climate/smart-grid-overview
https://mitei.mit.edu/system/files/Electric_Grid_Full_Report.pdf
http://gtresearchnews.gatech.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2013-Spring-Summer.pdf

and hundred more source.

Maybe you dont know, power grid is shared national wide, that is to maintain efficiency on all fuel being burnt for power generators.

the best way to maintain efficiency is to have 2-ways system in order to integrate green-friendly power source such as solar power to feed into the system.

Right now, its very balanced system, I dont believe your claims that they are outdated.

a very balanced system? LOL says who?

And I know for the fact that its harder to maintain true power balance by breaking up into smaller sections.

who said anything about breaking up into smaller sections? that's not what I said. I said "we will have multiple power grids that are independent of each other." It means making multiple power grids INDEPENDENT of each other. that's a smart grid. if one block goes down, rest of the blocks will remain fine. and plus they (a house, university, major metropolitan city, etc) can have their own power... hence independent of each other.

that's how internet and cellphone towers work. our national power grid should work the same.

Have you notice much improvement with power in the last 40 years? Over the last 40 years multiple power grid have joined up, result much less black outs and brown outs. I do remember seeing brown outs but apparently not anymore, thats due to nationalwide efficiency operation.

they joined up because of financial and regulation reasons due to increasing complexity and size of our antiquated power system.... just like cellphone companies. duh?

maybe you don't know realize how sensitive a national power grid is. it's already a known fact that our national power grid is susceptible to cyberattack, terrorist attack, or natural disaster. it's like a christmas light.... one goes down, all goes down. and it's already a known fact that our national power grid system is antiquated.

"Smart Grid" is what we need. a real-time information. it's the future. and it makes sense. all it takes is a government regulation to push it into that direction.

 

[Jiro]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/microgrid-smart-grid-power-evolves-to-fuel-the-future/

A microgrid is essentially a smaller grid that can work independently and disconnect from the larger grid.

And sometimes they aren't easy to spot. Walking around New York University's Washington Square campus, you would never notice that you are actually walking in a microgrid. NYU's underground cogeneration or cogen plant produces both electricity and steam even when the main utility company fails.

The NYU microgrid got its first big test during Superstorm Sandy in 2012, when the local utility Con Edison suffered widespread blackouts, leaving most of lower Manhattan in the dark. In the midst of the storm, NYU's campus shined like a bright light.

"When Superstorm Sandy happened and we were what we call in 'island mode' and our power plant, our cogen plant, ran independent of the Con Ed grid. And we provided power to the 26 buildings throughout the duration of superstorm Sandy," said John Bradley, NYU's associate vice president of sustainability, energy and technical services.

The university's plant is approaching 80 percent efficiency, compared to a normal plant which is 50 percent efficient. Because it is close to the buildings it serves, less power is lost when electricity is transmitted through power lines, and the shorter lines are easier to maintain.

Smart grid software

A lot of the focus on improving the power grid has been on trying to create a "smart grid," which basically means making it more efficient, responsive and reliable through modern technology.

One company on the leading edge is Smarter Grid Solutions. Their software tracks the grid in real-time, communicating what's happening when it is actually happening.

"What we do is provide a solution to utilities that are looking for new ways to connect more distributed energy resources to the grid," said the company's co-founder and chief technology officer Bob Currie.

The software is used by power and utility companies to increase their existing grid capacity by connecting more renewable energy and working with the growing demand for electricity.

Instead of building new infrastructure, this new technology allows the power and utility companies to make the existing grid more efficient.

If parts of the grid that are reaching the limit of what the system can handle, the software can prevent an overload from occurring by coordinating with different devices, like power generators, to help with the capacity issue.

"We receive lots of data from the utility systems so when they show us what's happening in the different parts of the grid where power is flowing, our software then analysis that identifies where there are problems, and then it connects those problems to the things it can control. And it automatically controls them to remove the problems," said Currie.

The company's first project was in 2009 on the Orkney Islands in Scotland. The Orkney project saved 23,000 tons of CO2 in one year working with wind farms.

Environmental and energy experts say this type of technology makes the grid more productive and allows for more renewables to be used to their full advantage.

"Real-time tracking and real-time data is essential to making it possible for us to cut the waste out of the system and understand how we can make maximum use of clean technologies like solar wind and geothermal," said Andrew Darrell, New York regional director and chief of strategy for Environmental Defense Fund's U.S. Climate and Energy Program

Smart grid software has also been implemented in big cities like London. Smarter Grid Solutions is currently doing a nine-month study in New York researching how to make the city's grid more efficient and reliable.

"It's like we are managing the traffic on the roads, almost," Currie explained. "If you set the traffic lights up to operate to a schedule and you just forget about them, then you are missing an opportunity to coordinate those traffic lights based on the actual traffic on the road. So by monitoring and making decisions in a real-time and an ongoing basis, we can adapt to whatever is happening and fit more through the system."

there you go, DHB. wake up. it's 21st century. mind totally blown, huh?

 

[Jiro]

http://www.pserc.wisc.edu/research/FutureGrid.aspx

What will the future grid look like?
A systematic transformation of today's electric grid is underway to enable high penetrations of sustainable energy systems. The grid is evolving from a network architecture with relatively few large, hierarchically-connected, tightly synchronized energy resources supplying large, medium, and very many small passive consumers. It is evolving toward a network driven by many distributed and concentrated, highly variable energy resources mixed with large central generation sources, energy storage and responsive users. The effective transformation of the grid requires decisions based on identification and solution of major operating, planning, workforce, economic and public policy challenges.