About this Deaf Culture thing...

[rebeccalj]

The bolded is a perfect example of why you are here. And I can identify with much of that. And we love having you here.

I'm still speechless at what another poster accused you of the other day -- that your determination/decision to fit in more with the deaf and not use speech "just because you have to" was ALL ONLY because of this forum.[/QUOTE]

I know. I was like "Who the f*** cares" if Beklack wants to identify herself as Deaf because of this forum. We all take our journeys to the Deaf world using different paths.

Exactly! And, for some of us, it took a great deal of courage to even branch out into our new world having had horrible hearie upbringings that made us feel somehow less simply because we view the world in an unique way.

When the blueprint that you were given by your parents made the Deaf community, or being Deaf, something that was wrong, and not something society in general would accept, it's not an easy thing to switch off overnight. You have to re-learn. Undo the blueprint. That takes time.

 

[GrendelQ]

I can take only so much of being around hearing people. I am forced to deal with them daily on the job and can never feel like I am truly a part of their groups. I look forward to being comfortable around fellow deafies after work. If that is not etnicity, I don't know what is.

I've spoken with a number of people who identify as HOH and feel the same way, too, that at work and at home they do just fine, but truly, the group they feel most 'at home' with consists of fellow HOH -- similar issues/interests, a common language and vocabulary, a physiological distinction from others. I had always thought of them as being somewhat culturally HOH, but I guess they might extend the definition and consider themselves an ethnic group, if they feel like one.

The very young adults and teenagers I've met who grew up with CIs and have met throughout the years at camps and events, have developed online relationships despite being dispersed far and wide, often talk of a strong kinship with other CI users. My daughter's closest friend is also another CI user at her school. Again, I tend to think of this as a cultural connection, but perhaps some day she will self-identify as ethnically CI Deaf as well as ethnically Chinese. Although hereabouts, I suspect there's more of a Red Sox influence than anything else in our culture and she'll more likely consider herself a member of the Red Sox Nation.

Using "ethnic group" interchangeably with "cultural group" seems to dilute some of the meaningful distinctions between the two concepts, but I have no issue with what people choose to call themselves. As Flip has mentioned, though, I too object to strangers telling me they know better what ethnicity my child is and demanding that I change my child's behavior according to their definitions. I see her as ethnically Chinese, culturally American, and culturally Deaf)

 

[Berry]

The idea of anonymity on the internet has been mentioned here. But I personally have never stayed on a forum for long without coming into contact with local people who are also on that forum and they often have personal ties to people further away.

This, by the way, has to be the least anonymous board I have ever come across. My daughter knows people who are on the board, some I have not met, my wife and I had a very pleasant visit with The Write Alex once.

I see an odd parallel here between the "Deaf Experience" and the "Music Experience" described in many movies. You all know the ones, where the parents want their child to play Classical music and the child wants to play rock and roll or hip hop or something else. The parents fight and fight and fight against the child until they finally prove themselves. The only title I can think of is "The Jazz Singer" with Neil Diamond, but there are a lot of others.

The problem is the movies always show a reconciliation in the end between the parents and the children -- Unfortunately in real life, and especially with Deaf, this reconciliation does not happen.

I notice another parallel. This one has to do with the "What is 'real' Deaf culture" and "What is 'real' music."

Those who participate in music form a distinct culture/subculture group -- But it is not a homogenous group as many in each separate subgroup will contend they are the "Only true representatives of "Real" music. And some groups see certain music as part of their ethnic identity.

I'm not sure what conclusion to draw from this, but I do see the parallel and thought I would mention it.

 

[Beach girl]

Although hereabouts, I suspect there's more of a Red Sox influence than anything else in our culture .

(OT) Yay!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist -I lived in Boston for 5 years and became a RS fan for life. Off to a bit of a bad start this year, eh? (/OT))

 

[rebeccalj]

What I don't understand is how people are deemed to be authentic for being true to their Culture be that Asian, Spanish, English, Australian, etc.

By having so many Deaf/deaf/HoH forced to adapt to the English culture we are denied our authenticity and are forced to become nothing more than frauds.

Now, when we want to fully embrace our Culture, many are ridiculed? Why? If the alternative is not being who you really are, a fraud, how can that somehow be acceptable in our society?

It's akin to saying, "I'm glad we have a bunch of liars walking amongst us. As long as I can understand them, I'm great!" :roll:

 

[flip]

I've spoken with a number of people who identify as HOH and feel the same way, too, that at work and at home they do just fine, but truly, the group they feel most 'at home' with consists of fellow HOH -- similar issues/interests, a common language and vocabulary, a physiological distinction from others. I had always thought of them as being somewhat culturally HOH, but I guess they might extend the definition and consider themselves an ethnic group, if they feel like one.

The very young adults and teenagers I've met who grew up with CIs and have met throughout the years at camps and events, have developed online relationships despite being dispersed far and wide, often talk of a strong kinship with other CI users. My daughter's closest friend is also another CI user at her school. Again, I tend to think of this as a cultural connection, but perhaps some day she will self-identify as ethnically CI Deaf as well as ethnically Chinese. Although hereabouts, I suspect there's more of a Red Sox influence than anything else in our culture and she'll more likely consider herself a member of the Red Sox Nation.

Using "ethnic group" interchangeably with "cultural group" seems to dilute some of the meaningful distinctions between the two concepts, but I have no issue with what people choose to call themselves. As Flip has mentioned, though, I too object to strangers telling me they know better what ethnicity my child is and demanding that I change my child's behavior according to their definitions. I see her as ethnically Chinese, culturally American, and culturally Deaf)

I would say your kid is on her way becoming ethnically deaf, if she isn't already. But she will have the last word anyway, no matter what you or I think is right or wrong.

You are saying no to deaf ethnicity by saying that if some deaf people can claim ethnicity, then everyone can. You are refusing the ID of some deaf people. Isn't that audism?

 

[GrendelQ]

I would say your kid is on her way becoming ethnically deaf, if she isn't already. But she will have the last word anyway, no matter what you or I think is right or wrong.

You are saying no to deaf ethnicity by saying that if some deaf people can claim ethnicity, then everyone can. You are refusing the ID of some deaf people. Isn't that audism?

Wow.
Not sure if you have me confused with someone else. I have said repeatedly that I can see Harlan Lane's logic in assigning those who are hereditary American Deaf to a Deaf Ethnicity. This does not mean such an ethnicity must apply to all deaf, quite the contrary. My daughter is not of those founding families Dr. Lane has charted and pedigreed extensively in proposing that in addition to being Culturally Deaf, some families are ethnically Deaf. My daughter is among those he defines as Culturally Deaf.

But please, give us the same respect you yourself demand : I do not insist that you call yourself one thing or another, i dont tell you you aren't Deaf. Please don't insist on labeling my daughter or think you have a right to force your idea of what she should be on her. You can insist she is Scandinavian because she likes dried fish and wears Hanna Andersson clothing but it isn't audism for me to say she's not.

 

[Berry]

I would say your kid is on her way becoming ethnically deaf, if she isn't already. But she will have the last word anyway, no matter what you or I think is right or wrong.

You are saying no to deaf ethnicity by saying that if some deaf people can claim ethnicity, then everyone can. You are refusing the ID of some deaf people. Isn't that audism?/QUOTE]

No, it is NOT audism.

Audism starts with the premise that Deaf are disabled and ASL is a crutch.

Audists see Deaf Culture as deaf people in denial.

I also did not read your interpretation of her words in what GrendelIQ wrote. She is a hearing mother of a deaf child willing to interact with the Deaf Community.

She is communicating her lack of understanding of the classification, not other people's experience.

Whatever she may be, or confusions she may have, an Audist is the last thing I would call her.

 

[flip]

Wow.
Not sure if you have me confused with someone else. I have said repeatedly that I can see Harlan Lane's logic in assigning those who are hereditary American Deaf to a Deaf Ethnicity. This does not mean such an ethnicity must apply to all deaf, quite the contrary. My daughter is not of those founding families Dr. Lane has charted and pedigreed extensively in proposing that in addition to being Culturally Deaf, some families are ethnically Deaf. My daughter is among those he defines as Culturally Deaf.

But please, give us the same respect you yourself demand : I do not insist that you call yourself one thing or another, i dont tell you you aren't Deaf. Please don't insist on labeling my daughter or think you have a right to force your idea of what she should be on her. You can insist she is Scandinavian because she likes dried fish and wears Hanna Andersson clothing but it isn't audism for me to say she's not.

The book The People of the Eye: Deaf Ethnicity and Ancestry, Lane, Pillard and Hedberg uses hereditary deaf people to explain the ethnicity of deaf people, but they don't stop there.

From the description at amazon:
"What are ethnic groups? Are Deaf people who sign American Sign Language (ASL) an ethnic group? In The People of the Eye, Deaf studies, history, cultural anthropology, genetics, sociology, and disability studies are brought to bear as the authors compare the vales, customs and social organization of the Deaf World to those in ethnic groups. Arguing against the common representation of ASL signers as a disability group, the authors discuss the many challenges to Deaf ethnicity, in this first book-length examination of these issues."

So, yes, your daughter are probably, gasp, ethnically deaf, according to Lane.

No one here have insisted to call other people things. We talk about people like you who reject the ID of other people. Saying that your daughter looks ethnically deaf isn't the same as forcing my idea of what she should be. You are free to say you don't think she does, and that's allright, because she is the only one that knows in the end. You don't.

I haven't demanded respect from anyone, btw. Not saying that I don't want respect, but please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[posts from hell]

The bolded is a perfect example of why you are here. And I can identify with much of that. And we love having you here.

I'm still speechless at what another poster accused you of the other day -- that your determination/decision to fit in more with the deaf and not use speech "just because you have to" was ALL ONLY because of this forum.

I saw that too, and I was absolutely dumbfounded. I couldn't even say anything too.

 

[GrendelQ]

So, yes, your daughter are probably, gasp, ethnically deaf, according to Lane.

I think you'll find that his proposal applies very specifically to America Hereditary Deaf families that he has tracked in an extensive database. (you can find it online if you actually buy and read the book, which I'm doing). He makes comparisons and distinctions with Cultural Deaf who are not among those families.

No one here have insisted to call other people things. We talk about people like you who reject the ID of other people. Saying that your daughter looks ethnically deaf isn't the same as forcing my idea of what she should be. You are free to say you don't think she does, and that's allright, because she is the only one that knows in the end. You don't.

I haven't demanded respect from anyone, btw. Not saying that I don't want respect, but please don't put words in my mouth.

Hmm. Whose ID have I rejected? I call my daughter Culturally Deaf and I believe I have every right to do so. She has had ASL as a primary language from the time she was 1, she attends a school for the deaf, she engages daily with the Deaf community, her future is being marked out among Deaf people, she signs with friends via her videophone, she enjoys ASL theatre, she employs Deaf customs. What are you arguing with me about -- you think I'm rejecting her ID? Are you saying I can't call her this?

Or because I look at Harlan Lane's distinctions between those he says are Ethnically Deaf vs. those who are Culturally Deaf, see that she is not is a descendant of the American Deaf Families that Harlan Lane calls Ethnically Deaf, and I agree with his classification of her as Culturally Deaf, you think I'm rejecting something?

Label yourself what you want. I've made no objection to what you want to call yourself, you can say you are ethnically Chinese, Elf, or Disney character for all I care -- I don't know your heritage and trust you do. I've said that if she chooses to consider what i see as cultural affiliations as ethnicities (CI Deaf, New Englander, Boston Red Sox fan, etc.), I'll support her in that, even though it differs from my definition of ethnicity vs. culture. I have referred to how I see my child fitting into these classifications under discussion as a philosophical exercise, out of an interest in engaging in conversation with the community about topics we have a shared interest in, and as part of an ongoing discussion in which even if I don't always agree, I'm always finding it informs me in some way.

But to throw around the audism label because we disagree on the definition of ethnicity? You should just keep your labels to yourself, whether you are applying them to my daughter or to me, because I think you are becoming a bit irresponsible and emotional in how you are looking at this discussion.

 

[posts from hell]

Anyhoo, I am in Arizona right now on a vacation. I read some of the posts in this thread and will have to catch up after several posts that are dang long.

Just wanted you guys to know that I will be catching up in this thread, and I am physically tired of this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=356mE1KcXQw]YouTube - rebirth[/ame]

So yea, I will be posting a lot less. I am sure the few posters that are addressed in this thread is relieved about this piece of news.

Edit: Jillio; I think in that video I pretty much interpreted your entire first post.... all within 27 seconds.

 

[jillio]

Yes, we can argue over the definitions. What amazes me is the fact that they say no to my ID. It's like guy say, "I'm gay", and one responds with "ok, if you think so, ok, but I don't think so.". Why do they say no to the ID, that's the interesting part.

I have no idea why anyone would consider it their business to tell you how you can id yourself.

 

[jillio]

Anyhoo, I am in Arizona right now on a vacation. I read some of the posts in this thread and will have to catch up after several posts that are dang long.

Just wanted you guys to know that I will be catching up in this thread, and I am physically tired of this:

YouTube - rebirth

So yea, I will be posting a lot less. I am sure the few posters that are addressed in this thread is relieved about this piece of news.

Edit: Jillio; I think in that video I pretty much interpreted your entire first post.... all within 27 seconds.

LOL, yes you did. ASL is so much more efficient than English!

Enjoy your vacation. Grab a few rays for me!

 

[BecLak]

I saw that too, and I was absolutely dumbfounded. I couldn't even say anything too.

PFH , You not having something to say , in fact I was waiting on the edge of my seat for your response :P

 

[BecLak]

Anyhoo, I am in Arizona right now on a vacation. I read some of the posts in this thread and will have to catch up after several posts that are dang long.

Just wanted you guys to know that I will be catching up in this thread, and I am physically tired of this:

YouTube - rebirth

So yea, I will be posting a lot less. I am sure the few posters that are addressed in this thread is relieved about this piece of news.

Edit: Jillio; I think in that video I pretty much interpreted your entire first post.... all within 27 seconds.

PFH, your video does say it all. Even with my preschool level ASL I understood everything you signed.

 

[flip]

I think you'll find that his proposal applies very specifically to America Hereditary Deaf families that he has tracked in an extensive database. (you can find it online if you actually buy and read the book, which I'm doing). He makes comparisons and distinctions with Cultural Deaf who are not among those families.

Please read Lane before you make assumpations that fit your sole world view. The fact that you haven't read Lane does not mean I haven't either.

This paragraph from you is an example of people in denial that is described in the OP of this thread.

A quote from Lane from the Oxford Journal of Deaf Studies and Deaf Education:
"Americans in the Deaf-World do indeed feel a strong identification with that world and show great loyalty to it. This is not surprising: The Deaf-World offers many Deaf Americans what they could not find at home: easy communication, a positive identity, a surrogate family. The Deaf-World has the highest rate of endogamous marriages of any ethnic group—an estimated 90%."

Hmm. Whose ID have I rejected? I call my daughter Culturally Deaf and I believe I have every right to do so. She has had ASL as a primary language from the time she was 1, she attends a school for the deaf, she engages daily with the Deaf community, her future is being marked out among Deaf people, she signs with friends via her videophone, she enjoys ASL theatre, she employs Deaf customs. What are you arguing with me about -- you think I'm rejecting her ID? Are you saying I can't call her this?

Or because I look at Harlan Lane's distinctions between those he says are Ethnically Deaf vs. those who are Culturally Deaf, see that she is not is a descendant of the American Deaf Families that Harlan Lane calls Ethnically Deaf, and I agree with his classification of her as Culturally Deaf, you think I'm rejecting something?

Label yourself what you want. I've made no objection to what you want to call yourself, you can say you are ethnically Chinese, Elf, or Disney character for all I care -- I don't know your heritage and trust you do. I've said that if she chooses to consider what i see as cultural affiliations as ethnicities (CI Deaf, New Englander, Boston Red Sox fan, etc.), I'll support her in that, even though it differs from my definition of ethnicity vs. culture. I have referred to how I see my child fitting into these classifications under discussion as a philosophical exercise, out of an interest in engaging in conversation with the community about topics we have a shared interest in, and as part of an ongoing discussion in which even if I don't always agree, I'm always finding it informs me in some way.

But to throw around the audism label because we disagree on the definition of ethnicity? You should just keep your labels to yourself, whether you are applying them to my daughter or to me, because I think you are becoming a bit irresponsible and emotional in how you are looking at this discussion.

When I read this, I think of the youtube post, rebirth, from PFH.

You are asking questions and claims about things I never said, so makes no sense to reply to several of your questions. Until you manage to not derail yourself, you are only confirming the youtube post from PFH.

The claim that I accuse you of audism because we disagree on the definiton of ethnicity, is an example of what PFH is talking about. We probably don't agree on that claim from you, but you stop the discussion of other options and reasons why I ask if your behavior is audist, by asking a question that requires a common understanding that does not exist.

So again: I sense deaf ethnicity in your daughter, like Lane, a hearing authority that you have stated you agree with, and I am free do to so. It's not an insult. Telling me to keep that for myself is pretty emotional.

And mind, I haven't told you to stop audist behavior, just asking if your behavior is audist.

 

[posts from hell]

PFH , You not having something to say , in fact I was waiting on the edge of my seat for your response :P

Its like a chess match now. I need to be aware of what I am doing, and pick my battles wisely. Deaf on Deaf fighting of all sorts should stop.

I certainly had an opinion on that, but was it worth the energy to even bother in this specific case?

There was so much hypocrisy in what he had to say. When people didn't even respond to him and he had to come and point the question out again - that was the best thing that could have happened. He will eventually learn that his questioning/approach is not accepted in general.

Thats the approach I am taking now especially after taking the Alice Shrugged workshop and thinking about the grand picture.

 

[Miss-Delectable]

Thats the approach I am taking now especially after taking the Alice Shrugged workshop and thinking about the grand picture.

Is this workshop branching out nationwide?
Would love to attend one someday.

Sorry to be off the topic.

 

[posts from hell]

Is this workshop branching out nationwide?
Would love to attend one someday.

Sorry to be off the topic.

There are talks about it happening again in other places.