About this Deaf Culture thing...

[naisho]

I think I am one of the few that remain in neutral alignment towards all deaf issues on this board.

I dislike and have no taste for any hearing-passionate individuals who, either in reality or online here, try to pressure the Deaf to accomplish incongruent tasks that they don't want to do. I feel each and every individual is entitled to do what they wish to do as long as it remains in conformity that no boundaries are overstepped.

Most of them do not know what it is like having been born stone deaf and assimilation involved in the process of growing up, the hardships of attaining proper education for some people, and mutual values everyone deaf seems to understand.


I do draw a line to a point in this path, though.

I don't believe any citizen in the USA, whether deaf, Deaf, handicapped, mentally disabled, celebrity status, all aside from justice and law operators have the right to acknowledge superiority over another. This attenuates to any group, the Hearing, the Deaf, the Blacks, the Hispanics, the Asians, any of these are means to distinguish themselves from another and sometimes there are people in any of these group who try to empower themselves by being full of it to the point they think their group is better than another.

That is the part that I feel is intolerable.

I feel that everyone is equally entitled to what they want, no law should rule in favor of another group just because they were physically or mentally different. this is precisely what irks me of the operation in 'Deaf Power' cults, where often it seems as if the key motivation other than promoting Deaf culture, is to make themselves look like they are superior.

It goes both ways, but obviously we will see a higher percentages from the hearing population, because simply they outnumber the deaf by 30:1 in the USA.

I think a part of me that makes me see things this way, is because I tend to find myself as a person in the middle for many methods people identify themselves as.



Addressing the internet hostility issue, the direction in the general consensus of the web is towards a negative perception of anything. You see it on facebook, you see it on your daily CNN news articles, it is on yahoo answers. Bluntly spoken, anonymity has granted an invisible veil that is even here on this forum, where people think they can verbalize someone else down to the ground. I think the deeper issue is reflected by the direction society is currently operating, and that isn't an optimistic direction. The deaf, while being a minority, get two loads on the internet due to already being put down in reality.

 

[kyleb]

This post is spot on, jillio. I was guessing that you would be discussing what was referred to in the post you and I participated in, and you did somewhat. Thank you for the new post!

 

[GrendelQ]

Jillio, this is a very interesting topic you bring up. One point I'd like to bring up: this forum comprises such a varied group of deaf that I don't know how someone new to the forum or to Deaf Culture would ever identify the Voice of Deaf Culture amid the clamor and knowingly resist it. 4 years in and I still see many, many different groups sharing space and experience and common interests here -- this seems more like a loose aggregation of the deaf community where all deaf would be welcomed and accepted than a high bastion of Deafhood where rituals are strict and behavior is moderated by an established and recognized authority.

There are more "Oral deaf" than ASL Deaf (culturally) even in this filtered environment, just as there are in the real world. That majority obviously doesn't equal an accepted worldview of how it should be for all here, many of those who are oral themselves advocate for sign. And there are late deafened, whether genetically or via medical crisis or occupational hazard along with those born deaf of deaf going back 6 generations. Some went through the Deaf Academy, from the oldest schools for the deaf to Gallaudet, and others were in self-contained classrooms or mainstreamed without any other deaf contact and all sorts of combinations in between. Some use HAs, some CIs, some are unaided, some have used or done all of the above with various outcomes. There are those here in this community who are not even deaf, but whether they have mild, moderate, severe or unilateral hearing loss or are otherwise affiliated with the deaf community, as family and friends, educators, terps, ASL students, researchers, they still participate, have an impact and are impacted.

Because of the anonymity of this forum, unlike in real life, it's difficult to determine who among us is from hereditary Deaf families and carries that institutional memory of the culture. Often the most outspoken of those censuring the disparate deaf perspectives are those newly acquainted with something they think of as Deaf Culture, enthusiastic and passionate, but though they may talk the talk, they don't walk the walk in real life, don't interact in a deaf community, don't support deaf schools, don't use sign as their primary language at home or at work, and don't raise their children incorporating the language and culture. And some of those who are considered Others or Outsiders actually do all those things.

Many here have discussed the pressure of hearing society to enforce an acceptable view of being deaf on them, forcing them to use a language, into a unaccepting culture. Seems that some deaf are doing just that to other deaf here. What you might see as someone coming here to find commonality with other deaf and yet angrily rejecting Deaf Culture may be just a long-time, well-informed individual who has been deaf and studied deafness longer than some here have been alive, who holds a different perspective on what being Deaf means and expresses not an anger, but an unwillingness to allow yet another group unfamiliar with his situation, his experiences, enforce their perspective on him, or define him. Someone who feels it's more important to live fully as a deaf man and share his own experiences with others than to live one way while defining an idealized existence for others and telling them how they should live their lives. One person's idea of Deaf Culture may not be the same as someone else's.

Maybe the person you see as an outlier is more an active participant in an evolving Deaf Culture in his geography than those who angrily reject his views or his questions as something unacceptable. Or maybe not, but who is the arbiter here of what's appropriate for a deaf man to feel or what he should experience on his journey? At least consider that his views as an individual with a lifetime of experience interacting with the world as a deaf man are as valid as those of the flyby ASLI student, the so-excited individual who saw the latest Miss Deaf USA and has fingers crossed that she'll have a cute little deaf baby some day and pledges that her firstborn will grow up with Signing Time instead of Baby Mozart and never will know a CI, or the person who insists that hearing families learn ASL and incorporate it into their homes, but who won't do either herself because she has no time to whom you give so much respect just because they pay Deaf Culture lip service. This group, of all people, should know that actions speak far louder than words.

 

[Glenn]

Agreed. When you see someone get it, and become happier and more comfortable with themselves and others, it does a heart good.

Agreed. It means there really is some point to it all.

 

[shel90]

I agree with most said.

I don't see point of some of members to join the forum and only to argue against us. Makes me think what their real life must be like if they spend so much time and effort on here arguing against us. Must be sad life.

If people want to argue, that's fine but when it comes to telling a group of people that they are wrong about how they live their lives is when the line has been crossed.

That's the whole point of this thread. Belittling a culture that one has no interest in becoming a part of.

 

[drphil]

double posting

 

[drphil]

Supposedly Alldeaf.com is a forum for persons who are "Hard of Hearing/deaf/Deaf/Blind/deaf" experiences. Plus others who may have some interest as such.
This is not just a "cultural deaf" exchange.

Given the multiplicity of labels to the word "deaf" can be lead to "interesting intermural exchanges". Clarity at times would appear to be in "the eye of beholden". One can be "cultural" deaf-uses ASL and hear quite well vs bilaterally deaf who uses a Cochlear Implant and doesn't use ASL is "not real deaf", Apparently deaf persons use Hearing aids as well.
Perhaps we need a new selection of labels to bring clarity to the "deaf condition".

A few random thoughts. Further interesting thought: why don't the "blind" consider their "condition" cultural?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[shel90]

Supposedly Alldeaf.com is a forum for persons who are "Hard of Hearing/deaf/Deaf/Blind/deaf" experiences. Plus others who may have some interest as such.
This is not just a "cultural deaf" exchange.

Given the multiplicity of labels to the word "deaf" can be lead to "interesting intermural exchanges". Clarity at times would appear to be in "the eye of beholden". One can be "cultural" deaf-uses ASL and hear quite well vs bilaterally deaf who uses a Cochlear Implant and doesn't use ASL is "not real deaf", Apparently deaf persons use Hearing aids as well.
Perhaps we need a new selection of labels to bring clarity to the "deaf condition".

A few random thoughts

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

Like I said in my first post of this thread. If you want to connect with others who are not part of Deaf culture here on AD, there are plenty of members but why argue about the facts about Deaf culture with people who are culturally Deaf?

 

[naisho]

If people want to argue, that's fine but when it comes to telling a group of people that they are wrong about how they live their lives is when the line has been crossed.

That's the whole point of this thread. Belittling a culture that one has no interest in becoming a part of.

I have observed the d/Deaf bashing on hearing culture, in real life, on facebook, here, many instances anywhere.

Usually these stem from Pro-Deaf power supporters, to the point they even deny some profoundly Deaf equality. Marlee Matlin for example..

This needs to be done away with if Deaf want a right to prosecute on hearing people, or else there is nothing to gain and it is just contradictions one after the other..

 

[shel90]

I have observed the d/Deaf bashing on hearing culture, in real life, on facebook, here, many instances anywhere.

Usually these stem from Pro-Deaf power supporters, to the point they even deny some profoundly Deaf equality. Marlee Matlin for example..

This needs to be done away with if Deaf want a right to prosecute on hearing people, or else there is nothing to gain and it is just contradictions one after the other..

Some of us come here to vent about the oppression put on us by hearing society but I dont remember anything nor anyone bashing hearing people for how they live their lives as hearing people.

 

[GrendelQ]

If people want to argue, that's fine but when it comes to telling a group of people that they are wrong about how they live their lives is when the line has been crossed.

That's the whole point of this thread. Belittling a culture that one has no interest in becoming a part of.

Yes, the belittling of individuals and their experiences, the way they live their lives, their self-identity, their culture --- it's all that those who are deaf complain about from the hearing world. To see it enacted here in a place that you'd think would accept all deaf, such deaf-on-deaf oppression is heartbreaking.

 

[Bebonang]

The bolded part, and AlleyCat's response is what I try to get across to hearing parents of Deaf children who do not learn sign language and who try to push hearing culture onto their children.

Unfortunately I am seldom successful.

Bingo!!!!

The bold statement is what I hate about that in my life. My mother and my father refused to learn sign language, because I can talk and lipread them. But they don't want to learn it by going half way. Yes, both of my parents pushed me into the hearing culture and I get frustrated with the school, home and other public places. No one want to listen to my pleas.

 

[Bebonang]

There is one thing that bother me a lot. I don't know why they have the fear and try to push us (force us) to do what they want us to say that the CIs will make the profoundly deaf "hear". But to try to listen as CI profoundly deaf struggled hard to understand, that is very hard to accept the fact that the hearing people are hoping to have us be like them all the way. That takes a lot of pressure on the deaf child or deaf adult to learn to listen. It gets us very frustrated a lot and not happy at all. But when the ASL came along, it does open doors (like lifting off our chests) for us to communicate much easier than struggled through trying to comprehend what the hearing society said.

Many of us, Deafies, don't like having parents making the decisions and telling us what is best for us and that we should struggled no matter what. That is soooooo wrong. It is not right at all.

 

[shel90]

Yes, the belittling of individuals and their experiences, the way they live their lives, their self-identity, their culture --- it's all that those who are deaf complain about from the hearing world. To see it enacted here in a place that you'd think would accept all deaf, such deaf-on-deaf oppression is heartbreaking.

If deaf people come in here and tell us that ASL is limiting or Deaf culture is isolating or whatever, then yes, you will see people telling them off. I would because if they dont want to learn ASL nor be a part of Deaf culture, fine but dont question with what we value and identify with. That's the point of this thread.

I have noticed when that happens, it becomes about Deaf oppressing the deaf. Maybe not in all cases but in many, yes. Why is that?

 

[GrendelQ]

If deaf people come in here and tell us that ASL is limiting or Deaf culture is isolating or whatever, then yes, you will see people telling them off. I would because if they dont want to learn ASL nor be a part of Deaf culture, fine but dont question with what we value and identify with. That's the point of this thread.

I have noticed when that happens, it becomes about Deaf oppressing the deaf. Maybe not in all cases but in many, yes. Why is that?

I don't know, I haven't seen that (it becoming about Deaf oppressing the deaf) happen.

I think there is a lack of clarity about what it means to be Deaf, and sometimes people without enough familiarity with either their own deafness or with the Culture itself are taking it upon themselves to define what it means for others to be Deaf. Or deaf. And to dictate the journey deaf people need to take or the validity of their experiences.

 

[shel90]

I don't know, I haven't seen that (it becoming about Deaf oppressing the deaf) happen.

I think there is a lack of clarity about what it means to be Deaf, and sometimes people without enough familiarity with either their own deafness or with the Culture itself are taking it upon themselves to define what it means for others to be Deaf. Or deaf. And to dictate the journey deaf people need to take or the validity of their experiences.

I have no problem with that.

I do have problems when people support people like, for example, that war veteran saying that people who communicate using ASL are unable to communicate with others. To me, by making excuses for that person's comments is allowing the audism to continue. That is what I have a big problem with.

 

[GrendelQ]

I have no problem with that.

I do have problems when people support people like, for example, that war veteran saying that people who communicate using ASL are unable to communicate with others. To me, by making excuses for that person's comments is allowing the audism to continue. That is what I have a big problem with.

Right, I found what he wrote to be harsh and it made me so sad for him that he had not made any connection with other deaf, couldn't see the benefit of finding commonalities in a culture that really does exists, and could only see his deafness as a loss. But I can see that from his perspective, for him it is a terrible loss, and something precious has been taken away. For my daughter, deafness is not a loss, it's a characteristic, part of who she is. I think to lose your hearing at a late age would be as devastating as an ASL user losing the use of her hands at a late age, and would be to have your primary means of communicating and interacting with the world taken. For him, learning ASL would not only be difficult, but would not make it possible to communicate with the people he knows and loves. It's not the same animal as being born deaf or losing hearing early in life.

 

[naisho]

I don't know, I haven't seen that (it becoming about Deaf oppressing the deaf) happen.

That is what bothered me the most. At first I felt it was equal entitlement for everyone, you deserve a vent after awhile. Then the whole crab theory concept kicks in on high gear once you've seen it like television reruns.

Some of the things that fueled to my thought about this had to do with some people who left here.
The first person who sent me a PM here in 2006 was an interpreter, who said she could identify with my views of the world, but told me to tread carefully from militant-like Deaf activity. There were others that disappeared over the years that I knew were from a middle world. For ex, I noticed rockdrummer had his account deleted. I thought he was a hearing dad of a deaf (not 100% sure of this) who sometimes got kicked around here for his opinions...
I'm only left to wonder why he disappeared and what caused it.

 

[shel90]

That is what bothered me the most. At first I felt it was equal entitlement for everyone, you deserve a vent after awhile. Then the whole crab theory concept kicks in on high gear once you've seen it like television reruns.

Some of the things that fueled to my thought about this had to do with some people who left here.
The first person who sent me a PM here in 2006 was an interpreter, who said she could identify with my views of the world, but told me to tread carefully from militant-like Deaf activity. There were others that disappeared over the years that I knew were from a middle world. For ex, I noticed rockdrummer had his account deleted. I thought he was a hearing dad of a deaf (not 100% sure of this) who sometimes got kicked around here for his opinions...
I'm only left to wonder why he disappeared and what caused it.

RD kept questioning ASL and insisting that SEE was more appropriate, if I remember correctly. To many of the culturally Deaf, SEE was offensive because hearing people took ASL and changed the syntax to fit their needs. I am sure hearing people wouldnt like it if Deaf people changed the syntax of spoken English to follow ASL syntax. I think that was what RD kept refusing to understand and then it became about him getting attacked by everyone when it was only a few people.

That was what happened if memory served me correctly.

 

[jillio]

If deaf people come in here and tell us that ASL is limiting or Deaf culture is isolating or whatever, then yes, you will see people telling them off. I would because if they dont want to learn ASL nor be a part of Deaf culture, fine but dont question with what we value and identify with. That's the point of this thread.

I have noticed when that happens, it becomes about Deaf oppressing the deaf. Maybe not in all cases but in many, yes. Why is that?

Yes, that is exactly the point. Not interested in Deaf Culture? Fine. No one is going to force it down your throat. But if you aren't interested, there is absolutely no need to consistently question and denigrate the values and beliefs of others who are interested. To do so is completely unnacceptable.