A Parent's joy versus animal's torment.

[KarissaMann05]

There is a study research said that about 80-90% of parents choose the spoken language over ASL.

And it is still rising up...

 

[KarissaMann05]

You should be aware that the medical community wants to get ruin of all disabilities, including the deafness. Trust me. They will try to reduce the need of ASL.

Most hospitals still refer to oralism or speech tools more frequent than they would refer to ASL...

 

[Nic]

That is one part of it, and the qustion needs to be asked as ive asked it early in the thread why is technological assimilation ised and pushed on one Deaf,and not the other black

Because of the medical paradigm. Skin color doesn't have that aspect.

The comparison rests not on the what is being changed, skin color, lack of hearing,but on the WHY it is being changed. Thats the issue. It comes down to discrimination. And thats the key. The chnges sought are sought to address discrinination, the well dronee idea though hardly real that ci gives more oppurtunities, so on. The reason those oppurtunites are lacking in the first place is due to rampant audism and discrimination. Ci wasnt developed for music enjoyment, the gowls were more lofty, the goals were the same oralist goals of assimilation. This is one reason history is inportant, because ideology spwns generations, juat s racism does, so does oralism and audism...these ideoogies share some importsnt features. One is the unwillingness to accept diversity. All must be the ssme...(white) or your inferioe..(racism), all must be hearie or inferior..(audism) one must speak as a hearie or as cmose as possible, and no be Deaf..(oralism)...ideology very much drives men...

Why? because of the medical paradigm. The fact is, there is a medical paradigm. And the fact that Deaf culture can co-exist with CI invalidates this whole line of argument.

CI was developed to solve a medical problem. Not to obliterate Deaf culture. It could be a side effect though, if we let it. But the culture can persist with CI, through ASL.

If something threatens your culture, make it part of your culture... The approach works... it's why Christmas is Christmas.

Your only viewing it through the medical paradagm...its much nore then the ability or lack of it....

But there is a medical paradigm, and it's not completely separate. I completely understand that someone can feel a given absence, hearing, seeing, etc. can be something they are happy with, or ok with, or accept. I do understand that, completely.

I even understand how someone can feel they don't need to be "fixed" and that they don't see themselves as having a problem. Lots of arguments to the opposition of anti-CI don't understand this. There are tons of them online, people who simply don't understand how someone can be "willingly disabled". And the fact is plenty of d/Deaf/HOH choose to be implanted and have a result that's positive.

But, everyone is free to decide for themselves. And parents, legally, are free to decide for their offspring. Either way a parent chooses, to implant or not, they're taking away some choice of the child. They're either taking away the choice to be implanted early, or they're taking away the choice to have never been implanted.

Which is worse is an individual decision. Some people think it's worse to deny the opportunity to learn English with some hearing, others think it's worse to put hardware in a kid's head without their consent. Neither deny ASL as you have suggested.

The more important decision is "should I have my deaf baby learn sign language".

This is all so circular, we've said these same things before...

Right....and it was essentialy forced fown our throats,againat our oppostion, in some countires no choice at all, in others extreme coercion, in othees manipulation, in wll oir Deaf ideas and oir Deaf wishes were igbored, scoffed, and generally disnissed... so now sure its getting aceoted...not by a choice...but by being forced...here too is whwre history will help you..

Here and now, the US and Canada, the first world. The Western world. That's what I'm concerned with. I can't be the protector of all people of the world. It's impossible. It makes the arguments impossible. There are just too many other variables.

In America, I don't care too much about how things -were- done here in the past in this situation. I only care about how they are done here now.

We don't want the bad things from history to repeat, it's what gives history value. But we don't want to dwell on the bad things in history when they aren't happening anymore either. It just keeps them alive unnecessarily. Using them in arguments is a bit absurd because they're not happening here and now.

In regards to audism, it's a bigger topic that needs a lot more exploration.

Warn out already? Ha!! Its a been a week or so on the thread...ive been in this for 30 years....
Tsk tsk.

Circular conversations don't interest me. Repeating and reading the same things multiple times, even less so. You're getting lazier responses from me now, and since we've reached this point, I have no interest in continuing.

Wearing someone down with circular arguments and side stepping the core issues isn't how to sway them to your side, or even how to get them to consider thinking about it. Based on the approach, I'd assume you are actually arguing for CI, using reverse psychology of sorts at this point. Convincing people to implant their deaf babies.

My patience is worn on the issue now. Too many retreads on the same old trails. That's not to say I won't respond again, I can be obsessive about not leaving someone when they want a reply. But my replies will just get more and more lazy, shorter and shorter (in tone not necessarily length).

Nothing more can be accomplished here.

 

[Nic]

You should be aware that the medical community wants to get ruin of all disabilities, including the deafness. Trust me. They will try to reduce the need of ASL.

Most hospitals still refer to oralism or speech tools more frequent than they would refer to ASL...

Need? So what if they reduce the need for ASL? Is there a need for Icelandic, Sami, any of the Native American language? Is there a need for any language beyond a few wide spread ones?

They're also not trying to reduce the need for ASL, they're trying to reduce the incidence of deafness (the medical condition). Reducing the need for ASL is a bi-product. Kind of like teaching English as a requirement in Germany. It reduces the need for German, but it's not an attempt to wipe out German culture.

Need doesn't dictate usage. If ASL is a strong enough language, and the culture is strong enough, it'll persist regardless of need. Icelandic culture is thriving, The Sami of Northern Norway are still around, and they still yoik. The Native Americans are still using their languages and trying to keep their cultures alive and well. People like the preservation of culture.

This is my whole point. Technology will absolutely "cure" deafness eventually. It's going to happen, not if but when. ASL can persist without deafness. Deaf culture can persist without deafness. It's an alternative, a supplement. Like Icelandic, Sami, and any of the Native American languages. It's part of a rich heritage, culture, and community.

Need is irrelevant. If need is the only thing holding Deaf culture together, then Hoichi is right, Deaf culture is doomed.


Everyone keeps saying that Deaf isn't just a medical condition, but at the same time argues that eliminating the medical condition will eliminate Deaf culture. These are mutually exclusive, only one can be true. I personally feel that Deaf isn't just a medical condition, and eliminating deafness will not kill of Deaf culture. Deaf means so much more than deaf.

Sidenote: @Hoichi, if you're going to reply to one of my posts, pick this one. Karissa's perspective refocused mine, and this raises new questions, instead of rehashing old ones.

 

[Nic]

There is a study research said that about 80-90% of parents choose the spoken language over ASL.

And it is still rising up...

This is the very reason that pro-ASL arguments should be the focus. There's good research that shows that ASL for deaf/hoh kids improves their quality of life and their scholastic ability in HS and College. There are strong pro-ASL arguments as an addition to CI/HA/etc because those technologies are not 100% perfect or 100% reliable.

It's a positive approaching, adding something instead of taking away. Fighting the medical response to the medical condition is a losing battle.

 

[KarissaMann05]

Need? So what if they reduce the need for ASL? Is there a need for Icelandic, Sami, any of the Native American language? Is there a need for any language beyond a few wide spread ones?

They're also not trying to reduce the need for ASL, they're trying to reduce the incidence of deafness (the medical condition). Reducing the need for ASL is a bi-product. Kind of like teaching English as a requirement in Germany. It reduces the need for German, but it's not an attempt to wipe out German culture.

Need doesn't dictate usage. If ASL is a strong enough language, and the culture is strong enough, it'll persist regardless of need. Icelandic culture is thriving, The Sami of Northern Norway are still around, and they still yoik. The Native Americans are still using their languages and trying to keep their cultures alive and well. People like the preservation of culture.

This is my whole point. Technology will absolutely "cure" deafness eventually. It's going to happen, not if but when. ASL can persist without deafness. Deaf culture can persist without deafness. It's an alternative, a supplement. Like Icelandic, Sami, and any of the Native American languages. It's part of a rich heritage, culture, and community.

Need is irrelevant. If need is the only thing holding Deaf culture together, then Hoichi is right, Deaf culture is doomed.


Everyone keeps saying that Deaf isn't just a medical condition, but at the same time argues that eliminating the medical condition will eliminate Deaf culture. These are mutually exclusive, only one can be true. I personally feel that Deaf isn't just a medical condition, and eliminating deafness will not kill of Deaf culture. Deaf means so much more than deaf.

My point is that Deaf Culture won't survive for long enough time if the goal is to reduce the number of deaf and hard of hearing people by adanced treatments, which is about five to ten years from now. I'd not surprise if there is possible to create a cure in near future...

Yes, I'm pessimistic but realistic enough to know people probably will don't need sign languages if there is a treatment or cure...

Why teach your child ASL/SL if they can restore his/her hearing, anyways?

 

[Nic]

My point is that Deaf Culture won't survive for long enough time if the goal is to reduce the number of deaf and hard of hearing people by adanced treatments, which is about five to ten years from now. I'd not surprise if there is possible to create a cure in near future...

Yes, I'm pessimistic but realistic enough to know people probably will don't need sign languages if there is a treatment or cure...

Why teach your child ASL/SL if they can restore his/her hearing, anyways?

Why teach your child a Native American tongue if you can teach them English?

 

[hoichi]

[

Because of the medical paradigm. Skin color doesn't have that aspect.re.

Right, once you free yourself of the medical paradigm cage, then your hoeizons broaden

Why? because of the medical paradigm. The fact is, there is a medical paradigm. And the fact that Deaf culture can co-exist with CI invalidates this whole line of argument.
re.

The fact is. There is another paradigm besides the medical one, the very fact of current policies against sign aquistion in new inplanted babies and.children by ci professionals invalidates your coexist argument.

CI was developed to solve a medical problem. Not to obliterate Deaf culture. It could be a side effect though, if we let it. But the culture can persist with CI, through ASL.re.

It was developed for assimilation. The first babies and children where implanted against leading medical advice...its ideological driven.

If something threatens your culture, make it part of your culture... The approach works... it's why Christmas is Christmas.re.

Meh

But there is a medical paradigm, and it's not completely separate. I completely understand that someone can feel a given absence, hearing, seeing, etc. can be something they are happy with, or ok with, or accept. I do understand that, completely. re.

Alright

I even understand how someone can feel they don't need to be "fixed" and that they don't see themselves as having a problem. Lots of arguments to the opposition of anti-CI don't understand this. There are tons of them online, people who simply don't understand how someone can be "willingly disabled". And the fact is plenty of d/Deaf/HOH choose to be implanted and have a result that's positive.re.

Right, and many didnt have that choice.

But, everyone is free to decide for themselves. And parents, legally, are free to decide for their offspringre.

In america, but not everyplace,ci conpanies are international, i wont stop at the border eiether

. Either way a parent chooses, to implant or not, they're taking away some choice of the child. They're either taking away the choice to be implanted early, or they're taking away the choice to have never been implanted. re.

No. The baby cant mske the choice. The parents not implanting respects the individual choice as to theie body.

Which is worse is an individual decision. Some people think it's worse to deny the opportunity to learn English with some hearing, others think it's worse to put hardware in a kid's head without their consent. Neither deny ASL as you have suggested.

The more important decision is "should I have my deaf baby learn sign language".re.

Do you have that magic data of all those wonderfull oppurtunites ci brought? Is it like that comercial script i posted "ci oppurtunity never felt so good"

This is all so circular, we've said these same things before...re.

Right you and i have...

Here and now, the US and Canada, the first world. The Western world. That's what I'm concerned with. I can't be the protector of all people of the world. It's impossible. It makes the arguments impossible. There are just too many other variables.re.

Alright

In America, I don't care too much about how things -were- done here in the past in this situation. I only care about how they are done here now.re.

Fine, but ci industry is allot more far sighted, and are not caged by borders, neither should you

We don't want the bad things from history to repeat, it's what gives history value. But we don't want to dwell on the bad things in history when they aren't happening anymore either. It just keeps them alive unnecessarily. Using them in arguments is a bit absurd because they're not happening here and now.re.

What is not happining anymore regarding this?

In regards to audism, it's a bigger topic that needs a lot more exploration.e.

It sure does

Circular conversations don't interest me. Repeating and reading the same things multiple times, even less so. You're getting lazier responses from me now, and since we've reached this point, I have no interest in continuing.re.

Cool

Wearing someone down with circular arguments and side stepping the core issues isn't how to sway them to your side, re.

You first claimed im the reason you now support ci, (roll eyeys), now you post this post and state ive warn you down, could it simply be your unwilling to just accept i have a different opinion and approach then you?
Ive asked you repeated questions in this thread, which you nwver awsner, ive offered book recomendations, my experiences, ect, and now you want to to pout, its a circuar thread...its been a.discussion and a.worthy one...

or even how to get them to consider thinking about it. Based on the approach, I'd assume you are actually arguing for CI, using reverse psychology of sorts at this point. Convincing people to implant their deaf babies.re.

Whatever man, assume what you wish. You make empty claims about my approach never getting a simple fact of life. Different approsches work different people, you need to ask yourself how i was so easiky able to manipulate you if you truly believe wht you posted. What exactly in what ive posted has gotten you in love with ci? Foeget it man, i know, you wont awnser anyway....meh

My patience is worn on the issue now. Too many retreads on the same old trails. That's not to say I won't respond again, I can be obsessive about not leaving someone when they want a reply. But my replies will just get more and more lazy, shorter and shorter (in tone not necessarily length).

Nothing more can be accomplished here.

Reply if you wish, if not alls cool.
Really
Im not in this to convince you,hence my parience is stable in this...what im trying to do is undeestsand your psotion,not convert you.
You shod be wise and do the same..

 

[KarissaMann05]

Why teach your child a Native American tongue if you can teach them English?

Well, most people speak English... I doubt they have patience enough to learn an another language because it's 'too much efforts.' They prefer what they already speak their primary language.

EDIT: They also look for easy ways, too.

 

[hoichi]

[

This is the very reason that pro-ASL arguments should be the focus. There's good research that shows that ASL for deaf/hoh kids improves their quality of life and their scholastic ability in HS and College. There are strong pro-ASL arguments as an addition to CI/HA/etc because those technologies are not 100% perfect or 100% reliable.

Indeed there is. Indees the insustry and professionals are well aware of it and ignore it
Thus why they need to be called on their nonsense

It's a positive approaching, adding something instead of taking away. Fighting the medical response to the medical condition is a losing battle.

That medical response to the medical condition also due to policy effects our language and our culture. Until you grasp that, you will never get it..

 

[Nic]

Well, most people speak English... I doubt they have patience enough to learn an another language because it's 'too much efforts.' They prefer what they already speak their primary language.

EDIT: They also look for easy ways, too.

Most people do, but minority language cultures thrive. My family taught me German while I was growing up. Not because it has practical applications, but because it was used in the house and its part of my heritage, my family's culture.

Deaf culture can survive the elimination of deafness because ASL can coexist with English, CI, HA and hearing ability. It already does.

It's suggested that learning a second language young helps brains develop well. And for Deaf/hoh there's good research that demonstrates ASL (in addition to English) helps kids succeed academically in HS and College. It's good for kids to learn. And for Deaf babies it levels the communication burden within the family.

 

[Nic]

[



Indeed there is. Indees the insustry and professionals are well aware of it and ignore it
Thus why they need to be called on their nonsense


That medical response to the medical condition also due to policy effects our language and our culture. Until you grasp that, you will never get it..

No matter what deafness will be cured. Nobody is going to stop that from happening. If Deaf culture isn't just being deaf, it'll be fine and stick around.

 

[hoichi]

No matter what deafness will be cured. Nobody is going to stop that from happening. If Deaf culture isn't just being deaf, it'll be fine and stick around.

Well ive been in this for 30 years, in 30 years if your as optimistic as you are now...
Cool...

 

[hoichi]

No matter what deafness will be cured. Nobody is going to stop that from happening. If Deaf culture isn't just being deaf, it'll be fine and stick around.

Right, yet ive posted how current policies regarding sign aquision is having a drastic effect on my cultures ability to cultivate fluency in future generations, how denying sign is robbing us of this fluency in our children, our future leaders, our future story tellers and poets...
You seem to have the idea this is whats called co existence...
To us we dont see that as co existing at all
We see this as cultural genocide and cultural colonalism
Frankly until these policies are stopped, we will continue to see it for what it is..
Disagree all you want.
Its not your culture at stake here. Thus a very big plm in how you see coexisting.

As for no matter what we will be cured. Well indeed. One way or another the world will be rid of people like us..
Thats not a good thing, in my eyes...
The world will be a worse place all round,a future where normal perfect people all ready packaged to a certain measure and standard of normalcy, can be pre ordered prob on amazon, nice white,blond hair blue eyed wee perfect racialy pure, disability cured babies...
Mmmm....
Ominous..
Hope i miss that world man...i really do
Im just connecting the dots, oralism was closely associated with the likes of those who wanted just the above, and really if were going to rid the world of people like us, why stop at a pure race...
It all fits in as the drill turns......

 

[Nic]

Right, yet ive posted how current policies regarding sign aquision is having a drastic effect on my cultures ability to cultivate fluency in future generations, how denying sign is robbing us of this fluency in our children, our future leaders, our future story tellers and poets...
You seem to have the idea this is whats called co existence...
To us we dont see that as co existing at all
We see this as cultural genocide and cultural colonalism
Frankly until these policies are stopped, we will continue to see it for what it is..
Disagree all you want.
Its not your culture at stake here. Thus a very big plm in how you see coexisting.

As for no matter what we will be cured. Well indeed. One way or another the world will be rid of people like us..
Thats not a good thing, in my eyes...
The world will be a worse place all round,a future where normal perfect people all ready packaged to a certain measure and standard of normalcy, can be pre ordered prob on amazon, nice white,blond hair blue eyed wee perfect racialy pure, disability cured babies...
Mmmm....
Ominous..
Hope i miss that world man...i really do
Im just connecting the dots, oralism was closely associated with the likes of those who wanted just the above, and really if were going to rid the world of people like us, why stop at a pure race...
It all fits in as the drill turns......

How does arguing against CI help with this problem?

 

[hoichi]

How does ignoring it?

 

[KarissaMann05]

Most people do, but minority language cultures thrive. My family taught me German while I was growing up. Not because it has practical applications, but because it was used in the house and its part of my heritage, my family's culture.

Deaf culture can survive the elimination of deafness because ASL can coexist with English, CI, HA and hearing ability. It already does.

It's suggested that learning a second language young helps brains develop well. And for Deaf/hoh there's good research that demonstrates ASL (in addition to English) helps kids succeed academically in HS and College. It's good for kids to learn. And for Deaf babies it levels the communication burden within the family.

Somehow I doubt that ASL and Deaf Culture would stay survive, but we'll see...

EDIT: And I don't have much faith in both, considering how medical technology is evolving for its own improvement.

 

[Nic]

Somehow I doubt that ASL and Deaf Culture would stay survive, but we'll see...

EDIT: And I don't have much faith in both, considering how medical technology is evolving for its own improvement.

But isn't Deaf culture more than just being deaf?

 

[Nic]

How does ignoring it?

How does eating a cookie help?

Answering a question with an irrelevant question doesn't answer a question at all, does it?

 

[KarissaMann05]

But isn't Deaf culture more than just being deaf?

True. Yet, the majority doesn't think it would matter.

Again, is medical community's goal is to improve people's lives, right? That explains why the majority would choose spoken over signed if hearing loss treatment is available for their children... Older Deaf generations will die out, so it doesn't matter anymore.