545 vs 300,000,000 people.

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netrox said:
YOU'RE the one that doesn't get the point on WHY we pay taxes.

What makes our country prosperous is our taxes. We provide education which in turns creates more jobs for them and we have roads which help transport our goods and so forth.

In the old days, where taxes were little - their standard of living wasn't impressive at all. None of them had what we have now.

And you actually think by reducing taxes or having no taxes on them, we'd have a better standard of living? No way. It doesn't work that way at all. Cite a country where there is no to low tax rate and has the excellent standard of living as we do. Bet you'll find none.

It's appalling that our Republicans are advocating cutting down on our taxes yet ignoring that our deficit is getting out of control. Just exactly how will we pay our deficit if we cut our taxes?

Oh as for national debt - we had it since Civil War.

File:US_Federal_Debt.png


So stop complaining about taxes - they provide you what you take for granted.
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That is not the point that I took from the article however at this point we should agree to disagree. Peace!
 
netrox said:
YOU'RE the one that doesn't get the point on WHY we pay taxes.

What makes our country prosperous is our taxes. We provide education which in turns creates more jobs for them and we have roads which help transport our goods and so forth.

In the old days, where taxes were little - their standard of living wasn't impressive at all. None of them had what we have now.

And you actually think by reducing taxes or having no taxes on them, we'd have a better standard of living? No way. It doesn't work that way at all. Cite a country where there is no to low tax rate and has the excellent standard of living as we do. Bet you'll find none.

It's appalling that our Republicans are advocating cutting down on our taxes yet ignoring that our deficit is getting out of control. Just exactly how will we pay our deficit if we cut our taxes?

Oh as for national debt - we had it since Civil War.

File:US_Federal_Debt.png


So stop complaining about taxes - they provide you what you take for granted.
Click to expand...

what would the nation be like if it's dependent on tax? UK, Russia, Cuba, Sweden, Norway, etc.
what would the nation be like if it's dependent on capitalism? USA and no country like it :cool2:
 
Jiro said:
what would the nation be like if it's dependent on tax? UK, Russia, Cuba, Sweden, Norway, etc.
what would the nation be like if it's dependent on capitalism? USA and no country like it :cool2:
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In every capitalist country, there's tax.

In every fascist country, there's tax.

In every dictatorship country, there's tax.

You cannot avoid two things in life: taxes and death.
 
netrox said:
In every capitalist country, there's tax.

In every fascist country, there's tax.

In every dictatorship country, there's tax.

You cannot avoid two things in life: taxes and death.
Click to expand...

Every country has different tax system. Some countries tax citizens to death. Quite a handful of countries have probably just 1-2 taxes. Lot of countries do not have income tax.
 
Oh yes, and the middle class was the largest 100 years ago? Really? What about the gilded age?

If you're thinking of cute houses with a tree in front of the yard, that didn't happen until after world war 2 where taxes were the highest yet there was an explosion of middle class America.

Oh yes, with taxes, we got Internet. Oh yes, with taxes we sent a man to the moon. Oh yes, with taxes, we got USDA to regulate food quality.
 
*muttering* Income taxes are illegal.
 
netrox said:
YOU'RE the one that doesn't get the point on WHY we pay taxes.

What makes our country prosperous is our taxes. We provide education which in turns creates more jobs for them and we have roads which help transport our goods and so forth.

In the old days, where taxes were little - their standard of living wasn't impressive at all. None of them had what we have now.

And you actually think by reducing taxes or having no taxes on them, we'd have a better standard of living? No way. It doesn't work that way at all. Cite a country where there is no to low tax rate and has the excellent standard of living as we do. Bet you'll find none.

It's appalling that our Republicans are advocating cutting down on our taxes yet ignoring that our deficit is getting out of control. Just exactly how will we pay our deficit if we cut our taxes?

Oh as for national debt - we had it since Civil War.

File:US_Federal_Debt.png


So stop complaining about taxes - they provide you what you take for granted.
Click to expand...

You left out the importance of the robotic bees and condom studies and college trips to Costa Rica and signs telling us who paid for the road construction and extra security for dinner cruises ect ect ect

How do you reduce the deficit without raising taxes???? Stop spendin money on crap like this

Dems passed a bill by themselves that pays for nearly 9000 such items.....in one bill
 
"You left out the importance of the robotic bees and condom studies and college trips to Costa Rica and signs telling us who paid for the road construction and extra security for dinner cruises ect ect ect"

Well, some things are a bit silly, but they do NOT make any significant difference in our budget overall.
 
netrox said:
"You left out the importance of the robotic bees and condom studies and college trips to Costa Rica and signs telling us who paid for the road construction and extra security for dinner cruises ect ect ect"

Well, some things are a bit silly, but they do NOT make any significant difference in our budget overall.
Click to expand...

These are from the stimulus...

The $800 billion stimulus bill has close to 9000 of these items. That's the bill Obama claims has no earmarks:lol:
 
Netrox honey.. please for once learn how to use the quote button!
quote.gif


Put the comment in between the [*quote]quote[*/quote] Just remove the * and presto.. you have a debate that I can follow.
 
netrox said:
Oh yes, and the middle class was the largest 100 years ago? Really? What about the gilded age?

If you're thinking of cute houses with a tree in front of the yard, that didn't happen until after world war 2 where taxes were the highest yet there was an explosion of middle class America.

Oh yes, with taxes, we got Internet. Oh yes, with taxes we sent a man to the moon. Oh yes, with taxes, we got USDA to regulate food quality.
Click to expand...

we got Internet and space technology with capitalism. The government did not invent it with our tax money. The corporations did. That's why Soviet Union and any communist countries collapsed. Hell - even China's changing to our way. This remarkable advancement came from capitalism, not tax.

You are deeply confused with how our tax is being used. A hefty portion of our tax money goes to paying for government officials, public service and military personnel. Other portion went to welfare system like SSI/SSDI. And a small portion goes to expenses such as buying tools/equipments from corporations for government like weapons, computers, vehicles, etc - and I said a small portion because the government does actually have a credit card.

so.... if the government made Internet with our tax money.... then why are we still paying for Internet? Shouldn't it be free for all Americans?
 
netrox said:
Oh yes, and the middle class was the largest 100 years ago? Really? What about the gilded age?

If you're thinking of cute houses with a tree in front of the yard, that didn't happen until after world war 2 where taxes were the highest yet there was an explosion of middle class America.

Oh yes, with taxes, we got Internet. Oh yes, with taxes we sent a man to the moon. Oh yes, with taxes, we got USDA to regulate food quality.
Click to expand...

What you say is true. Most US inventions are from tax moneys, so are inventions in other countries. When a private company develops some hefty technology for the US military, it's tax money in action.

Also, the most prosperous countries in the world, quite often also got high taxes. Everyone has witnessed what happened with the earlier prosperous countries with low taxes, like ireland and dubai, they didn't fare very well after the finance crisis.

Immigration and communication have made many countries more similar to each other, and I suspect tax systems eventually will become more similar in all countries, less based on ideolog and more based on what works. So far, it looks like the world is moving towards a relative high tax.

In european newspapers, I have seen some articles about how the US system is becoming more similar the the chinese, in an effort to try to compete with China as superpower.

May we live in interesting times!
 
I really should have omitted that whole tax thing from the bottom of the article. Seems that is what people are taking from it and it's really the first part where I thought the point was. Oh well.
 
The deficits don't come from lack of taxation- they come from spending. There's a limit to how much revenue the government can raise from taxation but no limit to spending. I'm all for paying taxes to fund constitutionally legitimate purposes of the government. I'm not in favor of handing over my wealth to the government so politicians can give it to the groups that lobby hard enough for it and so politicians can bribe each other with pork to pass horrible legislation that they otherwise would oppose.

As for Social Security and Medicare, those programs have to be reigned in at some point and the sooner, the better. If not, we're going over a financial cliff which will cause us to regret the day those programs ever started.
 
"we got Internet and space technology with capitalism. The government did not invent it with our tax money. The corporations did. That's why Soviet Union and any communist countries collapsed. Hell - even China's changing to our way. This remarkable advancement came from capitalism, not tax."

The internet started in military which is paid by our taxes - I am sure people were outraged thinking why our taxes are being used to fund the networking silliness - and then universities got grants from governments to fund for internet networking. It was then that private companies decided to capitalize on that network for the public.

"ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency Network), created by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) of the United States Department of Defense, was the world's first operational packet switching network, and the predecessor of the contemporary global Internet."

ARPANET - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then

"The networks based around the ARPANET were government funded and therefore restricted to noncommercial uses such as research; unrelated commercial use was strictly forbidden. This initially restricted connections to military sites and universities. During the 1980s, the connections expanded to more educational institutions, and even to a growing number of companies such as Digital Equipment Corporation and Hewlett-Packard, which were participating in research projects or providing services to those who were.

Several other branches of the U.S. government, the National Aeronautics and Space Agency (NASA), the National Science Foundation (NSF), and the Department of Energy (DOE) became heavily involved in Internet research and started development of a successor to ARPANET. In the mid 1980s, all three of these branches developed the first Wide Area Networks based on TCP/IP. NASA developed the NASA Science Network, NSF developed CSNET and DOE evolved the Energy Sciences Network or ESNet."

Then private companies took advantage of our tax-paid protocols and created wealth.

"so.... if the government made Internet with our tax money.... then why are we still paying for Internet? Shouldn't it be free for all Americans?"

No, just because the government created a project doesn't mean it's free. You still have to pay for the service. An analogy: free water in park... free internet in library. Paid water in home, paid internet in home. Same thing.
 
netrox said:
The internet started in military which is paid by our taxes - I am sure people were outraged thinking why our taxes are being used to fund the networking silliness - and then universities got grants from governments to fund for internet networking. It was then that private companies decided to capitalize on that network for the public.
Click to expand...
if you check deeper - you will see that the Internet we are using right now is not from ARPANET. We BORROWED the concept of ARPANET to create Internet - a civilian-version of ARPANET. We are not using the actual ARPANET network. Big difference!

Internet was funded by NSF back in 60's but it's the corporations and universities who made it possible... on their own dime. Now - Google's creating their own Internet network.... on their own dime.

netrox said:
"ARPANET (Advanced Research Projects Agency Network), created by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) of the United States Department of Defense, was the world's first operational packet switching network, and the predecessor of the contemporary global Internet."

ARPANET - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then

"The networks based around the ARPANET were government funded and therefore restricted to noncommercial uses such as research; unrelated commercial use was strictly forbidden. This initially restricted connections to military sites and universities. During the 1980s, the connections expanded to more educational institutions, and even to a growing number of companies such as Digital Equipment Corporation and Hewlett-Packard, which were participating in research projects or providing services to those who were.

Several other branches of the U.S. government, the National Aeronautics and Space Agency (NASA), the National Science Foundation (NSF), and the Department of Energy (DOE) became heavily involved in Internet research and started development of a successor to ARPANET. In the mid 1980s, all three of these branches developed the first Wide Area Networks based on TCP/IP. NASA developed the NASA Science Network, NSF developed CSNET and DOE evolved the Energy Sciences Network or ESNet."
Click to expand...
right. we Joe the Plumbers don't have ARPANET access.

netrox said:
Then private companies took advantage of our tax-paid protocols and created wealth.
Click to expand...
no the corporations did not take advantage of it. They CREATED the Internet for commercial purpose because they thought it can be profitable and they were right. Internet is different from ARPANET.

netrox said:
No, just because the government created a project doesn't mean it's free. You still have to pay for the service. An analogy: free water in park... free internet in library. Paid water in home, paid internet in home. Same thing.
Click to expand...
not really. Canadians get free cable service - HD-version because it's paid for by tax. the reason why we're paying for Internet is because this Internet is not created by government by our tax money.
 
Stop it. The Internet would not be possible if not for the government.

"DARPA sponsored or encouraged the development of TCP/IP implementations for many operating systems and then scheduled a migration of all hosts on all of its packet networks to TCP/IP. On January 1, 1983, TCP/IP protocols became the only approved protocol on the ARPANET, replacing the earlier NCP protocol."

History of the Internet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

TCP/IP is what we use for the Internet today. Thanks to our taxes.

The Web? Thanks to Al Gore's bill:

"A potential turning point for the World Wide Web began with the introduction[48] of the Mosaic web browser[49] in 1993, a graphical browser developed by a team at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (NCSA-UIUC), led by Marc Andreessen. Funding for Mosaic came from the High-Performance Computing and Communications Initiative, a funding program initiated by the High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991 also known as the Gore Bill ."

Once again, funded by our government.

It was then private companies decided to capitalize on it and built their own backbones to interconnect with the TCP/IP protocols.
 
From what I remember....and it's been a while......the internet as we know it wasn't even "invented" in the US
 
Let's see. Jiro is an internet guy......and netrox is quoting wiki.....Which one should I believe :hmm:
 
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