Would you support BIBI programs as a national standard for Deaf ED?

[jillio]

I think part of the issue is that there are deaf kids who are able to get really great audition from devices, and are able to function very well using their hearing. These kids are often able to learn through listening, and so parents want to encourage this. I don't think they don't value education, but that they believe that their children can learn using their ears.

Can their children gain full access to the curriculum using their ears? Can their children function socially using only their ears in the educational arena. The research says not. Even those children who have improved audition post implant continue to suffer the same psycho-social implications in the educational environment as children with hearing aids. A kid who is experiencing psycho-social difficulties in the mainstream cannot fully focus on their educational pursuits.

 

[faire_jour]

Oral and TC are the philosophies most often used in a mainstream environment. I don't see that deaf schools going to a bi-bi philosophy will affect the TC and oral programs in the mainstream at all. It will simply provide a benefit for those students that are not being served properly through an oral or bi-bi program.

In my area TC and Oral classrooms are parts of the state school for the Deaf. If we changed and made bi-bi the only choice, what would happen to those kids?

 

[jillio]

In my area TC and Oral classrooms are parts of the state school for the Deaf. If we changed and made bi-bi the only choice, what would happen to those kids?

Hopefullly, they would attend the bi-bi programs. Although I doubt that the hard core Oralists would allow that to happen. They would rather mainstream into an oral only environment and let the kids do the best they can do with limited resources.

There are several public school programs in my area. The self contained programs use what they call a TC philosophy, and the inclusive mainstreamed programs are oral.

 

[faire_jour]

Hopefullly, they would attend the bi-bi programs. Although I doubt that the hard core Oralists would allow that to happen. They would rather mainstream into an oral only environment and let the kids do the best they can do with limited resources.

There are several public school programs in my area. The self contained programs use what they call a TC philosophy, and the inclusive mainstreamed programs are oral.

We have oral classrooms that are still a part of the school for the Deaf.

My concern is that the situation would get worse and all those kids would end up mainstreamed and without any sort of support or exposure to Deaf education.

 

[jillio]

We have oral classrooms that are still a part of the school for the Deaf.

My concern is that the situation would get worse and all those kids would end up mainstreamed and without any sort of support or exposure to Deaf education.

I don't see that happening. There are now, and always will be, children who cannot succeed in the mainstream. Deaf schools have existed for 200 years, and I don't see them closing any time soon.

 

[faire_jour]

I don't see that happening. There are now, and always will be, children who cannot succeed in the mainstream. Deaf schools have existed for 200 years, and I don't see them closing any time soon.

Of course there will always be people who agree with bi-bi, and their kids will go to the schools, and there will be oral fails who will end up there as a "last resort". But what about the other kids?

 

[jillio]

Of course there will always be people who agree with bi-bi, and their kids will go to the schools, and there will be oral fails who will end up there as a "last resort". But what about the other kids?

What about them, exactly? If the parents choose something other than a bi-bi program, chances are they would have made that choice even if bi-bi was not available.

 

[deafskeptic]

I'm for bi-bi based both on my experience in mainstream and on what my classmates have told me about what it was like for them before they discovered ASL.

 

[faire_jour]

What about them, exactly? If the parents choose something other than a bi-bi program, chances are they would have made that choice even if bi-bi was not available.

Won't the Deaf school TC and Oral programs end up in the mainstream with no services if all Deaf schools convert to bi-bi only? Isn't that a worse situation?

 

[jillio]

Won't the Deaf school TC and Oral programs end up in the mainstream with no services if all Deaf schools convert to bi-bi only? Isn't that a worse situation?

Uh, no. If Bi-Bi were to become the national standard for education of the deaf, it would be the national standard across board. The only reason that TC and Oral exist is because there is no national standard for education of the deaf. It is haphazard and unreliable. That is why we need a national standard.

I don't see how the mainstream can get much worse. Deaf students are already mainstreamed without proper support or services. Sweden has a much more successful educational system for the deaf than does the United States. Why? A Bi-Bi national standard in both education and early intervention.

 

[faire_jour]

Uh, no. If Bi-Bi were to become the national standard for education of the deaf, it would be the national standard across board. The only reason that TC and Oral exist is because there is no national standard for education of the deaf. It is haphazard and unreliable. That is why we need a national standard.

I don't see how the mainstream can get much worse. Deaf students are already mainstreamed without proper support or services. Sweden has a much more successful educational system for the deaf than does the United States. Why? A Bi-Bi national standard in both education and early intervention.

I disagree. I think that it is better to have the kids in an oral or TC program, under the supervision of teachers who understand Deaf ed. and with deaf peers than in mainstream settings. If we switch to only bi-bi I fear that all those kids will be lost.

 

[jillio]

I disagree. I think that it is better to have the kids in an oral or TC program, under the supervision of teachers who understand Deaf ed. and with deaf peers than in mainstream settings. If we switch to only bi-bi I fear that all those kids will be lost.

The problem being that most teachers in a TC or an Oral program do not understand deaf ed.

I certainly agree that deaf students are far better off with deaf peers than in a mainstream, inclusive setting with all hearing peers. But because we do not have a national standard that guarantees the consistency and appropriateness of the educational environment, nor of the qualifications of the classroom teachers, that is the present move in education. To mainstream.

I do not believe that kids in TC programs will be lost. Kids in oral only programs were never a viable population from which to draw anyway, as the parent who insists on oral only will not accept any program including sign language....including a TC program.

As I said, the U.S. needs to take a good hard look at the Swedish system. They are having far more success than we are. It should be serving as a model for deaf ed here.

 

[faire_jour]

The problem being that most teachers in a TC or an Oral program do not understand deaf ed.

Is that true? In my state you are required to have a master's in Deaf ed. to teach any (oral, tc, or bi-bi) deaf class.

 

[jillio]

Is that true? In my state you are required to have a master's in Deaf ed. to teach any (oral, tc, or bi-bi) deaf class.

Then you are lucky that your state has tighter requirements than most. The majority of programs in mainstream schools, TC or oral self contained classrooms are taught by a general special education teacher who has no special instruction in deaf ed.

 

[dreama]

If u prefer mainstreaming over BiBi, your opinion. I just disagree. And if all the parents send their kids to mainstreamed programs, then so be it. I do not care anymore. I am thinking about leaving the field of Deaf education anyway.

That's a shame.

 

[dreama]

I think part of the problem is that many people think that bi-bi doesn't value speech, or provide therapy for CI kids. They feel like that if they want those things they need a different kind of school.

My understanding of BiBi is that Signing AND English (spoken and written) is taught.
If they use a system like cued speach as part of the BiBi aproach then a Deaf child can have the best of both worlds.

I also think it's important to stress the importance of Written English as well as spoken english. I could manage without speach, but I don't think I could ever manage without being able to read. Since most methods I use as a deafblind person depend on written english rather then spoken English.

 

[flip]

I disagree. I think that it is better to have the kids in an oral or TC program, under the supervision of teachers who understand Deaf ed. and with deaf peers than in mainstream settings. If we switch to only bi-bi I fear that all those kids will be lost.

The problem with this view is that a teacher who have up to date knowledge about deaf ed, would rarely recommend TC programs over a bi-bi. This scenario is a bit disconnected from the reality.

Hearing children in US have rights that parents are ruled to obey, it's sad this not is the case for deaf children. It's legal to give a deaf child an english teacher that does not know any sign language, while it's illegal to give an english speaking child a math teacher that does not know any english. This is clearly discrimination of deaf people through the US law, and it's interesting that even some parents support this act of discrimination. The only way to solve this is to make bi-bi a national standard.

Jillio, you are spot on with bi-bi. Sweden got an unemployment rate of 4 percent for deaf people. That's on par with hearing people, while in surrounding countries in europe, where bi-bi not is the norm, the unemployment rate is much higher, some places 50 percent. It does not exist a place where bi-bi is the standard and the unemployment rate for deaf is much higher than for hearing people.

 

[shel90]

That's a shame.

Thanks...just getting tired of hearing over and over again from people only about the deaf children's ability to speak or understanding hearing people rather than on their knowledge, educational progress, social-emotional development, and other stuff. It is just becoming all about meeting hearing people's needs. I am bored with all of it exept for teaching the children. I am even bored with any discussions about anything related to the children's ears.

 

[shel90]

The problem with this view is that a teacher who have up to date knowledge about deaf ed, would rarely recommend TC programs over a bi-bi. This scenario is a bit disconnected from the reality.

Hearing children in US have rights that parents are ruled to obey, it's sad this not is the case for deaf children. It's legal to give a deaf child an english teacher that does not know any sign language, while it's illegal to give an english speaking child a math teacher that does not know any english. This is clearly discrimination of deaf people through the US law, and it's interesting that even some parents support this act of discrimination. The only way to solve this is to make bi-bi a national standard.

Jillio, you are spot on with bi-bi. Sweden got an unemployment rate of 4 percent for deaf people. That's on par with hearing people, while in surrounding countries in europe, where bi-bi not is the norm, the unemployment rate is much higher, some places 50 percent. It does not exist a place where bi-bi is the standard and the unemployment rate for deaf is much higher than for hearing people.

Of course, anyone with common sense can see that is blantant discrimination and denying the children's rights to full access to language, information, and education.

 

[jillio]

My understanding of BiBi is that Signing AND English (spoken and written) is taught.
If they use a system like cued speach as part of the BiBi aproach then a Deaf child can have the best of both worlds.

I also think it's important to stress the importance of Written English as well as spoken english. I could manage without speach, but I don't think I could ever manage without being able to read. Since most methods I use as a deafblind person depend on written english rather then spoken English.

What you are describing, using multiple systems, is not Bi-Bi. It is TC.