Why everyone have to hate people with CI?

[jillio]

There is an expressive component, a receptive component, and a comprehension component to language that applies to each mode. Spoken language does not equal speech, as you say. Expressing it can be accomplished via speaking, observing it via hearing (and some people can observe nearly 30% of meaning by speechreading), although this is all just delivery/ mechanics without the ability to comprehend/form the message.

I agree with the components, but have to disagree with the premise that spoken language is not speech. Tell me how one receives spoken language unless someone is speaking it? The receptive component of the receiver is dependent upon the expressive component of the producer.

Those components apply to communication, not just spoken language or language.

 

[GrendelQ]

Providing a CI can answer that need by giving access to sound and the ability to develop spoken language.

Sounded like that was what you were saying.

Yes, you can see that what I wrote is very different. Saying that a cold beer could quench my thirst right now is not the same thing as saying that thirst can only be quenched by cold beer.

 

[jillio]

But, saying that water is the more efficient way to address that thirst is different than the above. And, you don't have to have cash in hand or a store nearby.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Isn't beer a diuretic?

 

[jillio]

Isn't beer a diuretic?

Yes, it is. And alcohol dehydrates. So it really isn't a way to fulfill a need at all. It simply creates a greater need.

 

[GrendelQ]

But, saying that water is the more efficient way to address that thirst is different than the above. And, you don't have to have cash in hand or a store nearby.

Ok, you don't like the beer example, was simply using a typical memorial day beverage to illustrate. Let's say then I said that water, juice, milk, whatever the drink of choice could quench my thirst. This is nOt the same as saying that any one of these is the only way to quench thirst.

 

[playsonfreeway]

Wirelessly posted

But beer tastes better than water ;-)

 

[Grummer]

Speech is a skill that some people use to express English. Same with writing. Signing is a skill some people use to express ASL. Listening, speechreading, reading sign are all skills people use to receive language. It doesn't make sense to dismiss any of these -- signing, speaking or writing -- as meaningless parroting, meaningless gestures, or meaningless scribbling if they are being wielded to convey language. The development of these skills is not something to dismiss, these are important tools that enable people to then comprehend and express meaning in language. I think equal respect should be accorded any of these means of communicating, no one is better or more meaningful than another.

this is boring, why say what we ALREADY know, it REALLY come across as you're defending speech, it is a skill, and SO is SIGN !!!
Sign is a skill that is far more readily accessible to d/Deaf people. It is exactly what we should be doing, I no longer wish to appease the hearing. I am reclaiming not only my language, but MY LIFE.... no words, no books is big enough to expound this sigficance of Deaf Life.
you make me sick Gendel

Sign enables Meaning to be expressed

GRRRR you got that?, stop leaving sign out of the equation, we have all heard/read this before, why is it that d/Deaf are now saying this (that sign is to be sought) otherwise?

d/Deaf people have logic!, we have ability to recount experiences and surmise some kind of reckoning, where do you think that came from? verbal garble?? i dont think so..

Developement of sign is important no one can and shall never dismiss, for it is a spatial, durational, dimensional manifestion of meaning and it is vehicle to convey thoughts and significance of visualisation of thoughts to be read by hands, unlike some yarble, garble with the breath and wagging of the tougues (sic) , even seen a conversation about the impact of tax cuts on social well being in sign? i bet you haven't.

 

[somedeafdudefromPNW]

Wirelessly posted

Wirelessly posted

But beer tastes better than water ;-)

I tasted your stuff before.

Horse piss is better than water?

 

[posts from hell]

Wirelessly posted



I tasted your stuff before.

Horse piss is better than water?

The question remains - how does one know what horse piss tastes like?

 

[jillio]

Ok, you don't like the beer example, was simply using a typical memorial day beverage to illustrate. Let's say then I said that water, juice, milk, whatever the drink of choice could quench my thirst. This is nOt the same as saying that any one of these is the only way to quench thirst.

Still goes back to post 143.:P

 

[jillio]

Still hasn't been answered for me: how does one receive spoken language unless someone is speaking it?

 

[GrendelQ]

you make me sick Gendel

nice.

 

[GrendelQ]

Still goes back to post 143.:P

No, goes back to 101, in which I said:

"A child needs language. Providing a CI can answer that need by giving access to sound and the ability to develop spoken language. An immersive ASL environment can answer that need by providing access to sign and the ability to develop signed language."

Shel read that statement as

"You are saying a CI is needed to develop spoken language. "

Providing examples of how either a CI or an ASL immersive environment can lead to language acquisition is not saying that a CI is needed to develop spoken language.

 

[GrendelQ]

this is boring, why say what we ALREADY know, it REALLY come across as you're defending speech, it is a skill, and SO is SIGN !!!
Sign is a skill that is far more readily accessible to d/Deaf people. It is exactly what we should be doing, I no longer wish to appease the hearing. I am reclaiming not only my language, but MY LIFE.... no words, no books is big enough to expound this sigficance of Deaf Life.
you make me sick Gendel

Sign enables Meaning to be expressed

GRRRR you got that?, stop leaving sign out of the equation, we have all heard/read this before, why is it that d/Deaf are now saying this (that sign is to be sought) otherwise?

d/Deaf people have logic!, we have ability to recount experiences and surmise some kind of reckoning, where do you think that came from? verbal garble?? i dont think so..

Developement of sign is important no one can and shall never dismiss, for it is a spatial, durational, dimensional manifestion of meaning and it is vehicle to convey thoughts and significance of visualisation of thoughts to be read by hands, unlike some yarble, garble with the breath and wagging of the tougues (sic) , even seen a conversation about the impact of tax cuts on social well being in sign? i bet you haven't.

So Grummer, when you get a moment, why don't you read back through my posts and notice that I give equal weight and importance to signed language and spoken language. You might also notice that I'm the one saying that what's of primary importance is language, which is so much more than any one skill required to convey them. It's you and others who insist on contesting any part of a discussion including spoken language, or ridiculing it as "yarble garble" which bring it to prominence in our discussions.

And, yes, actually, I was at a large dinner last week during which a large part of the discussion -- conducted primarily in sign -- was focused around budget cuts and grants and the effects of these recent changes on my daughter's school for the deaf. I win that bet, what do I get? To read more of your ignorant blathering? Hooray!

 

[jillio]

No, goes back to 101, in which I said:


Shel read that statement as


Providing examples of how either a CI or an ASL immersive environment can lead to language acquisition is not saying that a CI is needed to develop spoken language.

And my response still goes back to 143.:P

 

[drphil]

Would asking pfh to differentiate. solve the the "liquid taste problem"? Expert taster apparently?

Implanted A B Harmony activated Aug/07

 

[deafdyke]

Most children with CIs can develop spoken language, by far, but there are so many reasons why some don't, including late implantation, lack of immersion in a spoken language environment, lack of parental commitment to using the CIs, and so on. You'd have to look at each case to determine why that child didn't or couldn't.

As for those without CIs? I don't understand what that question has to do with my statement, since I didn't bring anything up that has to do with whether or not children without CIs can develop spoken language, but I'll give it a shot. You want to know why many without CIs can develop spoken language? So many reasons: great education, language immersion, access to sound via HAs, individual aptitude, etc.

Grendel, I wonder if the increased sucesses with CIs may be due to a combo of loosening of implant criteria (so that kids who have some experiance with hearing get the "volumne turned up" so to speak. and the fact that only a small percentage of kids are born deaf and have unaidble losses.
Remember my generation of implantees really gave a lot of mixed results, b/c they were only implanting the very worst/deep profound cases. Like Li Li would have definitly been an implant canidate back then.
But some of the kids who are being implanted may not have been an implant canidate. Remember oralism and oral skills didn't begin and end with CI. Clarke and CID and the other oral schools were booming......plus some kids with profound or severe losses can get to speech levels with hearing aids. That was true back in the 40's/50's and 60's too.

 

[messymama]

They're starting to implant severe deafs too, here. And I'm sure many "profound" kids are not profound at all (I know of at least one who was diagnosed as profound and then, after CI, they found out he wasn't - he's severe on the unimplanted ear, but now refuses his HA on that ear).

As for language acquisition (I mean spoken languages since my experience in sign is still very limited), could it be a sort of "talent" too? I mean, like some of us learn other languages with ease while others never manage to use other languages properly, even if they study really hard and excercise? Because I met deaf people of all sorts until now and results seem to have nothing or little to do with what they hear... Some born profound deafs talk and write beautifully and dome don't, and the same with CI kids. That's why I think some individual innate ability must be involved in the process.

 

[Daredevel7]

Hm.... I find it interesting that when someone brags about their life with CI/HA, how they are happy with it, and how well they are doing with speaking/writing, socially, and academically, Deaf people usually respond with "yea right." or "Well, he is just a AGB superstar. Rare as a albino bat.". And hearing people say "See? Anyone can do it."

But if someone brags about their life WITHOUT HAs or CI, how they are happy with it, and how well they are doing with speaking/writing, socially, and academically, Deaf people usually respond with "See? Anyone can do it." And hearing people say "yea right." or "He's just a superstar."

Y'all aren't that different....

P.S. Fighting Grendel over CI/oralism? Come on. You know she's giving her child the best of both worlds. I think y'all are just using her as a scapegoat for your hate of oralism just because she said the taboo words: "Access to sound" and "speech"