What does it mean to be human?

[Vance]

This topic is for philosophy discussion. I am not sure where to put this topic in... I didn't see any philosophy forum to create a topic in so I assume that General Chat is perfect forum for it. Mods, sorry if I create a topic in wrong forum...

Anyway I am well-known for bringing up the philosophy discussion with different people in any location. It just hit me on last Sat so I brought it up with approx 30 people during that night at restaurant/bar, we end up discussed about that for several hours (at party too)... I already have the answer but naturally, it is just my opinion. So... Two questions for you folks: What does it mean to be human? and... How do you define "human"?

Allow me give you few examples to think about:

1) If I put the implant in my body like.. CI or pacemaker, am I still 100% human? or less than 100% because of these artificial implants? In science term, human are suppse to be whole and nothing else. So again, if I put the CI in my head, am I becoming slightly less than human?

2) If I lose my leg to the accident, I have the doctors to attach the 'cyborg' leg to my missing part. Am I still human or less than human? Or you have to call me 'a human with cybernetic part'?

3) If I lose all of my body to the accident, my brain is still good and well. They put my brain in the cyborg body and I can walk, talk, eat, drink, etc etc.. Am I still a human or much less than human, more than just cyborg?

4) If I lose all of my body and my brain to the accident however I am lucky enough that they have the technology to able to extract my memories/personalities and store it in the harddata storage like.. hard drive. They put my memories/personalities in cyborg and I am alive with these memories/personalities... Am I still a human or much, much less than human, much more than just cyborg because of my memories & personalities?

5) What about clone? Am I still a human if I died and revived thru clone technology?


So what does it mean to be human really? How can you define "human"?

 

[Levonian]

It’s funny you should bring this up—I was just thinking about this last night. I was washing dishes, and for some reason I started thinking about the episode of Star Trek where Starfleet Command wanted take Lt. Cmdr. Data apart to see how he works. The rest of the episode is a debate as to whether Data was ‘alive’ or not. If I were in that situation, I would argue that Data is alive because he is sentient—he is aware of his own existence. So, extrapolating that one step further, I guess your hypothetical cyborg is still human because his memories come from a human brain. Even though every last part of the body is replaced, the cyborg is derived from a human and is therefore at least ‘of human origin’.

 

[Banjo]

Your brain, heart and soul is what makes you human.

 

[Vance]

It’s funny you should bring this up—I was just thinking about this last night. I was washing dishes, and for some reason I started thinking about the episode of Star Trek where Starfleet Command wanted take Lt. Cmdr. Data apart to see how he works. The rest of the episode is a debate as to whether Data was ‘alive’ or not. If I were in that situation, I would argue that Data is alive because he is sentient—he is aware of his own existence. So, extrapolating that one step further, I guess your hypothetical cyborg is still human because his memories come from a human brain. Even though every last part of the body is replaced, the cyborg is derived from a human and is therefore at least ‘of human origin’.

Ah, I rarely watch the Star Trek series so I am not sure which ep you were talking however... do you mean that even with just memories & personalities that my doctor stored in hard drive and put in the cyborg or robot will make me a human? If so, am I still having the human rights?

 

[Vance]

Your brain, heart and soul is what makes you human.

Hmm, if I lose a whole of my body included heart and brain to the accident, am I still a human if they put the stored memories/personalities in the robot/cyborg?

Or am I automatically becoming less than human if I lose my heart to the accident and having them to attach the artificial heart in my body?

 

[Ziusudra]

That's interesting. I saw that episode with Data a while ago, and I had to argue he was human becasue he was aware of his own existence like you said, and he constantly strived to be human so he showed human qualities. It is the fact that we're human that makes us human. If that makes sense lol. If you think and feel as a human, I suppose you're human.

 

[Levonian]

do you mean that even with just memories & personalities that my doctor stored in hard drive and put in the cyborg or robot will make me a human? If so, am I still having the human rights?

Well, I’m not quite sure how to answer that, but I would say that you have the same rights as a normal human, even though your body is now entirely artificial.

 

[Vance]

That's interesting. I saw that episode with Data a while ago, and I had to argue he was human becasue he was aware of his own existence like you said, and he constantly strived to be human so he showed human qualities. It is the fact that we're human that makes us human. If that makes sense lol. If you think and feel as a human, I suppose you're human.

Heh. I can see where you are going with. What about programmers that can programming the robot to think and feel as a human. I cannot remember which article I read.. it mentioned that one japanese company finally can create a program that can react to pains and 'emotions' and develop from it. Like.. cat got killed and it can 'literally' feel sad and develop the aftermath actions like 'how to move on'. Right now, it is all in computer, not robot or cyborg yet. So if it can do that as we do in the future, does it mean that robot is becoming a human if they can do that as we did with 'think' and feeling' ability? (good example: Animatrix movie to expand my explaination)

To sum up, what if robot have the ability to think and feel as we do, does it mean that 'they' (I am not sure if I can use 'they' word for these robots) are human as well because of these human qualities? I know that's what you are trying to say. To me, it is pretty scary to call these robots with ability to think and feel as 'humans'.

 

[Vance]

Well, I’m not quite sure how to answer that, but I would say that you have the same rights as a normal human, even though your body is now entirely artificial.

That will be interesting if the situation will come up in the future and what will government and non-cybernetic humans react to these 'people'.

Like.. jobs, benefits, family tax, etc.. also since robot & cyborg have no age degeneration conditions, I wonder.. will government allow these 'people' to live longer than their expectations?

 

[XBGMER]

Wow, this is too politic science things. but I real interesting to answer!

Two questions for me:

What does it mean to be human?

Human is the person, no else. Human having head, body, hands and Feet upon the earth like the fourth beast feet on.


How do you define "human"?

Human is more Having human form as opposed to those of animals.


I just assume that. I hope my answer is accurate!

 

[Banjo]

Hmm, if I lose a whole of my body included heart and brain to the accident, am I still a human if they put the stored memories/personalities in the robot/cyborg?

Or am I automatically becoming less than human if I lose my heart to the accident and having them to attach the artificial heart in my body?

I have heard of artificial hearts being implanted into people, but it doesn't make them any less human. At least it's better than having no heart at all. To begin with, I wasn't speaking of the heart in its physical form. More into the spiritual form.

If your brain get replaced, you are no longer yourself. The character, Data on Star Trek: The Next Generation may seem realistic, but he is not real. He is made to be like a human being. But he'll never be one because he doesn't have a soul. You have to remember that, we only allow ourselves to become emotionally attached to machines which already has happened to some.

Some people are emotionally attached to their stereoes, computers, DVD players, TV, etc. Don't ask me why, but some people are like that. Heck, I remember an article on a woman who was charged with manslaughter or murder because she tried to save her pet which was in the form of a Giga Pet machine or something and she got a man killed because of it.

If you want to be human, you need a soul... and a brain too. But if they somehow manage to make a machine that functions exactly, or better than an organic brain. Then, that'll be a different story. A brain is like a hard drive, it stores your memories, emotions, opinions, thoughts, and more. A soul has to be in control of it, your soul drives your body. Just like you drive a car.

But a soul is capable of making both good and bad choices. A soul can become tainted, most souls are tainted in a way or more to begin with.

Heck, when you die and leave your body. Only a portion of your brain are taken with you into a new life which is why some people are able to remember some details from their past lives, just like you are able to recover some data from an erased hard drive.

Yeah, that's a lot to discuss on.

 

[Steel X]

human...aw yeah human.

humans are the evolved primates in the primate evloution who are supposed to be the smartest living creatures on Earth, but aren't as strong as gorillas and can't do many ablities as other animals do such as flying, have compound eyes, reactable claws, fangs, nor fur. (why is it that whenever we get more evloved, we get more naked with less hair? lol)

human is meant to have a personality, and ways of its culture and stuff like that. Every human are different and thats fine because lots of other creatures are different too.

So...human is never perfect and can't do anything nice and perfect than a robot can because robots aren't always perfect too...they can be infected with a virus or whatever like that lol so do humans.

so...what's it like to be human? everything.

 

[Gemtun]

Good question, Mag

Since I got my CI last spring, I have felt somewhat " artifical ", I can tell that my body is uncomfortable with an object inserted into the side of my head. My body has tried hard to reject it many times - thus sending me to hospital a few times. I think that my body will never get adjusted to an foreign object in my body. Even my hearing is artifical - all I hear is mechancial sounds.

This is a lot to ponder on but excellent question to ponder on!

What about these with breast implants, chin lifts, etc?

 

[Cheri]

Meaning of Human.. ummmm...I always thought of it as an individual, mortal, person, somebody, someone, soul, human nature.

 

[Tousi]

Quote by Magatsu:

To sum up, what if robot have the ability to think and feel as we do, does it mean that 'they' (I am not sure if I can use 'they' word for these robots) are human as well because of these human qualities? I know that's what you are trying to say. To me, it is pretty scary to call these robots with ability to think and feel as 'humans'.
_________________

Yeah, the thought is scary but if you remember any of Issac Asimov's works(I read some of his stuff eons ago, lol) science and government will make sure that (if it is even possible) replication of human qualities that separate us from beasts and machines will not be allowed in these machines.

 

[Vance]

Banjo, ahh you were speaking of spiritual. You have a good point. Your post give me more to discuss about but I don't know if anyone here is inclined to read and ponder on.

human...aw yeah human.

humans are the evolved primates in the primate evloution who are supposed to be the smartest living creatures on Earth, but aren't as strong as gorillas and can't do many ablities as other animals do such as flying, have compound eyes, reactable claws, fangs, nor fur. (why is it that whenever we get more evloved, we get more naked with less hair? lol)

human is meant to have a personality, and ways of its culture and stuff like that. Every human are different and thats fine because lots of other creatures are different too.

So...human is never perfect and can't do anything nice and perfect than a robot can because robots aren't always perfect too...they can be infected with a virus or whatever like that lol so do humans.

so...what's it like to be human? everything.

I don't know if we, humans can be consider as smartest living creatures on earth but let's not offtopic about that. You have a good point as well. There is still something missing about your statement. I need to think about that a bit more before reply. About culture, some people believe that robot do have the capable to develop its own culture, personality, feelings, etc etc if we give them the decision-making ability. I know it is far-fetched in present but in the future, if we still keep pushing our technology, we will have to deal with that issue soon or later.

What about these with breast implants, chin lifts, etc?

Exactly. That's what I wonder... With these implants, does it mean that whoever have the implant will be less than human or not? Because in science term, it is not natural. That's why I lately am pondering on about what does it mean to be human and how do you define "human" questions.

Meaning of Human.. ummmm...I always thought of it as an individual, mortal, person, somebody, someone, soul, human nature.

well.. robot can be consider as 'mortal' because it is able to be destroy or recycle... just like us. We can be recycle or destroy. Robot with human memories & personalities can feel that 'it' is individual because of memories & personalities. I mean, if my brain is still good and well and attach to the robot, am I still 'someone' or not? Even today, we still don't know where and which body part our soul is residing in. Wholeness? Heart? Stomach? Brain? Well as long as brain is still alive and functioning, it still can think and feel. So where does soul resides in? I believe no one knows yet.

Yeah, the thought is scary but if you remember any of Alex Asimov's works(I read some of his stuff eons ago, lol) science and government will make sure that (if it is even possible) replication of human qualities that separate us from beasts and machines will not be allowed in these machines.

Ah, I remember Asimov's works but there is a long history about humans and their arrogance... do you think that government and scientists will not allow that happen? I highly doubt it. You know the famous quote: curiousity killed the cat? One good example: In some countries, government have enough balls to sterilize deaf people (to not able to reproduce). America government did tried that method with mental retard & illness people... How can we so sure that they will not allow that happen? I don't know about you but I know that I can't be so sure about that part.

 

[Vance]

Folks, my answer to one question: how can you define "human".

I believe that was our memories. Our memories define who we are and what we are. Without it, I don't know how we can define who we are... For example, as you know that I am a ultra liberal and can be very blunt & asshole (well, I never want to be a asshole but my bluntness can get someone to think or assume that I am a asshole so I am not surprise ) in some point. How do you guys know that? Based on your memories, right? Without your memories, how can you define me?

We know that Vamproxy is a funny guy...how do we know? based on our memories, he shared his sense of humor with us in the past and we 'stored' that part in our memories. That's how we define Vamproxy as a funny guy (and of course, more). I know that Banjo is a canadian because he mentioned it to me a while ago and I 'stored' it in my memories and I started to define him as a canadian and movie lover based on my memories.

Right now, scientists are in hot debate about clone. Some scientists state that clones that cloned from us cannot carry our memories because it is 'fixed' to our original body & brain. Some scientists argued that it can be carry to clone(s) because it is automatically integrating into our genes... Which one is right? We still don't know. That's why I believe that memories itself can define "human" as it is.

But I cannot answer this question, what does it mean to be human. I still couldn't... If we are going to discuss about our abilities & human qualities then I believe that animals are more 'human' than we do.

Edit: Animals & robots do have its own personalities, so we cannot use that as well...

 

[Beowulf]

Right now, scientists are in hot debate about clone. Some scientists state that clones that cloned from us cannot carry our memories because it is 'fixed' to our original body & brain. Some scientists argued that it can be carry to clone(s) because it is automatically integrating into our genes... Which one is right? We still don't know. That's why I believe that memories itself can define "human" as it is.


Hmmmm....There were experiments done in which tapeworms were made to solve a simple puzzle, I forget what. When the trained tapeworms were fed to the untrained tapeworms, the result was that those worms performed tasks as if trained.
Maybe that is the origin of cannibalism?-to eat people in order to retain their memories?

 

[Aber]

Being human is to be born from a member of the human race.....

 

[Vance]

Hmmmm....There were experiments done in which tapeworms were made to solve a simple puzzle, I forget what. When the trained tapeworms were fed to the untrained tapeworms, the result was that those worms performed tasks as if trained.
Maybe that is the origin of cannibalism?-to eat people in order to retain their memories?

Wow. I never know that. Hmm, if I want to know who killed JFK, I guess I will have to eat Oswald's dead body by then :P

Being human is to be born from a member of the human race.....

So you were saying that animals are humans too? Glad that you brought it up about 'born', it remind me of one thing I read the article few years ago... It state that with nanotechnology & biotechnology, robots/cyborgs will be able to born or rather, politically word, reproduce. So I guess we cannot use that to define us as humans anymore if our technology is at the point where it is able to do that.

For damn sake, biotechnology finally at the point that computers & laptops can utilize broccoli's photosynthesis as energy source!