We Need Current Info Before Writing Off Cochlear Implants

[jillio]

People..u can't compare deaf children to hearing children let alone comparing them to hearing adults who already have total proficenty in language or languages. I see many of u comparing deaf children to yourselves as adults. Hell, I can't even, as a deaf adult who is bilingual compare myself to hearing people who are bilingual. I get full access to 1 language which is ASL and partial access to English. That puts me at an disadvantage if I am compared to hearing people so for deaf children who DO NOT even have a strong L1 language is even worse!!! That is the difference.
If u want to compare, use deaf children from deaf families as Jillo stated before.

Yep, shel; I don't know if they just can't understand, or if they just don't want to. I suspect it's that they don't want to, because then they would have to change what they are doing. Some people would rather be ignorant.

 

[jillio]

You act as if you were there with Cloggy's daughter and have the ability and skill to determine that her daughter's "issue" was not based on fluency. That's an amazing skill.

Or is it simply that since "[t]he issues with a deaf individual are completely different tha[n] the issues of a hearing individual", you know that any deaf child's difficulty in what some would call fluency are due to a failure of the auditory language.

Which one is it?

Yes, the issues are different, as has been stated in numerous prior posts. No, I was not with Cloggy's daughter, and was making an educated assumption based on the information provided by Cloggy. And yes, I have both the education, the degrees, and the experience to to such. BTW, Cloggy is a HE, not a SHE.

 

[jillio]

Shel.. this is one point I hate to disagree with you on, but I must. In my personal case, you absolutely can compare a deaf child to a hearing child. You see, my deaf son has a hearing twin brother (fraternal)... My deaf son was implanted at 11 months.. .and then got his second implant at the age of 5. He is growing up in the same exact enviroment as my hearing son... same parents.. same family..... Here's the kicker......... when it comes to language (comphrension and acquisition) my DEAF son is 2 LEVELS above my hearing son... My deaf son is reading above grade level (where my hearing son is at grade level)... My deaf son is at the top of his class, my hearing son is at grade level....In my personal experience, implanting a child earlier and with a great support system, I think that the risk of failure is low... Just my personal opinion... And with that said.. I have 5 nephews and a niece who are implanted..... all at various ages.... not one failure at all...... Just my 2 cents!

I am personally happy regarding your son's success, but I believe that you are mistaken that the enviornments are identical. No two children encounter the same environmental conditions, even identical twins being raised in the same household. Space prevents me from giving you all the details of why this is so, but I will leave it say that the fields of psychology, sociology, and biology will back me up on this one.

 

[jillio]

While that sounds nice and probably answers some other question, it has nothing to do with the question I asked DD

Actually, it does answer your question. You asked for the basis of her opinion, and I provided it for you. Do you have to work really hard at being a troll, or does ot come naturally?

 

[doubletrouble]

I am personally happy regarding your son's success, but I believe that you are mistaken that the enviornments are identical. No two children encounter the same environmental conditions, even identical twins being raised in the same household. Space prevents me from giving you all the details of why this is so, but I will leave it say that the fields of psychology, sociology, and biology will back me up on this one.

Well, as the mother of two sets of twins, one obiviously fraternal, and the other identicial, I personally disagree with that statement. That is not based on any empricial data, just personal and I am entitled to my own opinion.

 

[jillio]

Well, as the mother of two sets of twins, one obiviously fraternal, and the other identicial, I personally disagree with that statement. That is not based on any empricial data, just personal and I am entitled to my own opinion.

Yes, you are. But the world of social science would disagree, and it has been proven time and time again. Children, even your identical twins did not even experience identical enviorments in utero. One weighed more than the other, correct? Then one was experiencing an envionment that contained more nutrients. We do not ever react to or treat our children in the same way, despite out best attempts to do so. Therefore they cannot experience the same environment. In addition, even identical twins will show variances in personality that govern how they react to environmental conditions. So, while your opinion is fine, it is incorrect when discussing the variances found in the use of CI.

 

[deafdyke]

Also that acquiring oral skills does not have to be at the expense of also acquiring manual communication skills

Oh, lord.........that's always been the excuse. That oral kids should concentrate on polishing their speech skills. Yet there's no evidence whatsoever that oral only kids have better spoken language skills then kids who also use Sign. It's a fact that dhh kids have low verbal IQs. Verbal IQs show how well a person has mastered a language.
Ummmmm rick, what you're not getting is that the term "graduation" has nothing to do with graduating high school. I'm using the term to mean doing so well, that they don't require speech and language services.

 

[shel90]

Yes, I do see major differences... My son was the first one out of the bunch.. he was also the youngest... For him, his speech is sooooo clear that there is no deaf inflections at all... THe older children, most definitely.. they still sound deaf and rely on sign language in school (meaning have the assistnace of an interpreter).. For my son, there is no interpreter...

Shel:

When his implants are off, he still is able to carry on conversations with hearing people... He is an awesome lip reader ( of which I know is a skill).. There have been times at the dinner table we are having a conversation with my son , and he is able to go along and participate... it's not until somerone speaks to him in another room (and he doesn't answer) that we find out that he has his implants offf......As much as he cherishes sound, he also says he loves the silence.... My son is not hearing... even with his implants on..He is and will always be a deaf child... It's part of who he is and I wouldn't change that for anything.... But my son accepts his deafness and embraces it, as well as being able to hear with the implants on. He does know sign.. (more receptively than expressivley)... but does not rely on it at all... He uses it to have conversations with his grandparents who are Deaf, as well as some of his cousins (who were implanted much later in life)...

And in terms of failure..... well even if a deaf person is able to hear enviromental sounds around them, to me that's a success!!

wait a min..u said that your son knows sign and uses it conversationally? Has he been exposed to sign language since birth? If so, u just proved my point. That's probably why your son has great reading skills. That is what I want for all deaf children...to be exposed to both ASL and spoken language.

I am referring to deaf children who have never been exposed to sign language or exposed to it in an inconsistent basis (like a word here and there but not in conversations) ..those are the ones that shouldnt be compared to hearing children or even hearing adults.

 

[sr171soars]

wait a min..u said that your son knows sign and uses it conversationally? Has he been exposed to sign language since birth? If so, u just proved my point. That's probably why your son has great reading skills. That is what I want for all deaf children...to be exposed to both ASL and spoken language.

...

Not necessarily. There are some deaf kids like myself that took to verbal language and never learned sign and was a superb reader. To put some perspective on this, I was in a deaf school for the first four years and then mainstreamed. So, I started my first year mainstreamed in third grade. While in third grade, they had to send me to a fifth grade class for reading. This all the while I was getting speech therapy (it wasn't until I was in high school that I could say almost all words normally). I was always way ahead of the kids in reading. Some kids simply have an affinity for it.

 

[shel90]

Not necessarily. There are some deaf kids like myself that took to verbal language and never learned sign and was a superb reader. To put some perspective on this, I was in a deaf school for the first four years and then mainstreamed. So, I started my first year mainstreamed in third grade. While in third grade, they had to send me to a fifth grade class for reading. This all the while I was getting speech therapy (it wasn't until I was in high school that I could say almost all words normally). I was always way ahead of the kids in reading. Some kids simply have an affinity for it.

and others dont have an affinity for it which is why not exposing them to sign language will put them at bigger risk for not developing adequate reading or writing skills.

I never learned sign growing up and I am a sperb reader but I dont say because I could read without needing sign, others dont need sign too.

 

[sr171soars]

and others dont have an affinity for it which is why not exposing them to sign language will put them at bigger risk for not developing adequate reading or writing skills.

I never learned sign growing up and I am a sperb reader but I dont say because I could read without needing sign, others dont need sign too.

***Rolling my eyes***

I was merely pointing out that a child who is deaf can learn to be a superb reading without sign. It happens and that shouldn't be discounted as a possibility. I said nothing about not providing them the tool in addition to the verbal skills. If I were to err on the side of caution, I would prefer to expose a child both ways to give them what they need. They may decide to forgo one or the other down the line but that is their choice.

I will repeat myself again...in my particular case, I would have been screwed given both choices. I consider myself an unusual case in this regard.

 

[deafdyke]

I was merely pointing out that a child who is deaf can learn to be a superb reading without sign. It happens and that shouldn't be discounted as a possibility.

That's true, BUT overall oral deaf kids haven't had the best track record when it comes to being good readers. It's better to go with a full toolbox approach. About the only method which has consistantly produced really good readers is Cued Speech. There have been good readers who are oral, and good readers who are TC/ASL, but overall their reading acheivement isn't too impressive.

 

[Boult]

Yes, you are. But the world of social science would disagree, and it has been proven time and time again. Children, even your identical twins did not even experience identical enviorments in utero. One weighed more than the other, correct? Then one was experiencing an envionment that contained more nutrients. We do not ever react to or treat our children in the same way, despite out best attempts to do so. Therefore they cannot experience the same environment. In addition, even identical twins will show variances in personality that govern how they react to environmental conditions. So, while your opinion is fine, it is incorrect when discussing the variances found in the use of CI.

picky picky picky

chill out jillio!

 

[Boult]

wait a min..u said that your son knows sign and uses it conversationally? Has he been exposed to sign language since birth? If so, u just proved my point. That's probably why your son has great reading skills. That is what I want for all deaf children...to be exposed to both ASL and spoken language.

I am referring to deaf children who have never been exposed to sign language or exposed to it in an inconsistent basis (like a word here and there but not in conversations) ..those are the ones that shouldnt be compared to hearing children or even hearing adults.

read this part

He does know sign.. (more receptively than expressivley)... but does not rely on it at all

and no it didn't prove your point.

 

[Boult]

Shel.. this is one point I hate to disagree with you on, but I must. In my personal case, you absolutely can compare a deaf child to a hearing child. You see, my deaf son has a hearing twin brother (fraternal)... My deaf son was implanted at 11 months.. .and then got his second implant at the age of 5. He is growing up in the same exact enviroment as my hearing son... same parents.. same family..... Here's the kicker......... when it comes to language (comphrension and acquisition) my DEAF son is 2 LEVELS above my hearing son... My deaf son is reading above grade level (where my hearing son is at grade level)... My deaf son is at the top of his class, my hearing son is at grade level....In my personal experience, implanting a child earlier and with a great support system, I think that the risk of failure is low... Just my personal opinion... And with that said.. I have 5 nephews and a niece who are implanted..... all at various ages.... not one failure at all...... Just my 2 cents!

doubletrouble, that's awesome progresses! I am starting to think I know this family from somewhere... but I do not want to reveal your family at all

Have a great weekend!

 

[Drew's Dad]

Yes, the issues are different, as has been stated in numerous prior posts. No, I was not with Cloggy's daughter, and was making an educated assumption based on the information provided by Cloggy. And yes, I have both the education, the degrees, and the experience to to such. BTW, Cloggy is a HE, not a SHE.

Alas, jillio finally admits the prior high-horse diagnoses of speech patterns and "failure" of oral language (which were not witnessed personally) were ASSUMPTIONS.

You read a post by Cloggy and immediately assumed that oral language was failing, and presented it as fact in your reply. If you would've even hinted that you were making an assumption, or even partially acknowledged that the child may have only experienced a current lack of skill in utilizing a certain word, your thoughts would've appeared much more credible.

 

[rick48]

Yes, you are. But the world of social science would disagree, and it has been proven time and time again. Children, even your identical twins did not even experience identical enviorments in utero. One weighed more than the other, correct? Then one was experiencing an envionment that contained more nutrients. We do not ever react to or treat our children in the same way, despite out best attempts to do so. Therefore they cannot experience the same environment. In addition, even identical twins will show variances in personality that govern how they react to environmental conditions. So, while your opinion is fine, it is incorrect when discussing the variances found in the use of CI.

doubletrouble,

Reminds me of the line by Groucho Marx "When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you"! )
Rick

 

[shel90]

***Rolling my eyes***

I was merely pointing out that a child who is deaf can learn to be a superb reading without sign. It happens and that shouldn't be discounted as a possibility. I said nothing about not providing them the tool in addition to the verbal skills. If I were to err on the side of caution, I would prefer to expose a child both ways to give them what they need. They may decide to forgo one or the other down the line but that is their choice.

I will repeat myself again...in my particular case, I would have been screwed given both choices. I consider myself an unusual case in this regard.

Ok sorry for misreading u. My apologies.

 

[shel90]

read this part



and no it didn't prove your point.

Yes it does cuz the child acquired a language regardless if the child doesnt express it expressively. That language development probably helped him to excel in reading the way he did. Maybe he would excel it without any sign language but it was a good thing to have it anyway. I am saying that if children who arent super achievers, like SRSsoars, me, or you, will be lucky to develop decent reading and writing skills without a full access to a language. We dont know that until they are around 4 or 5 if they are super achievers or not so that's what makes me nervous..dont like the idea of oral only to all the children and then finding out at 4 or 5 that they werent able to develop at the considered normal rate and then expose them to ASL at that age when they should be ready to learn how to read and write. That is what I am seeing with my children and that concerns me greatly. I hope I am making myself clear?

I know that there are some of us that do fine without sign language but usually nobody really knows until the child goes to school. I guess I am saying I would rather be safe than sorry.

Nobody has to agree with me but just try to understand where I am coming from.

 

[sr171soars]

Yes it does cuz the child acquired a language regardless if the child doesnt express it expressively. That language development probably helped him to excel in reading the way he did. Maybe he would excel it without any sign language but it was a good thing to have it anyway. I am saying that if children who arent super achievers, like SRSsoars, me, or you, will be lucky to develop decent reading and writing skills without a full access to a language. We dont know that until they are around 4 or 5 if they are super achievers or not so that's what makes me nervous..dont like the idea of oral only to all the children and then finding out at 4 or 5 that they werent able to develop at the considered normal rate and then expose them to ASL at that age when they should be ready to learn how to read and write. That is what I am seeing with my children and that concerns me greatly. I hope I am making myself clear?

I know that there are some of us that do fine without sign language but usually nobody really knows until the child goes to school. I guess I am saying I would rather be safe than sorry.

Nobody has to agree with me but just try to understand where I am coming from.

I can see both POVs here (Boult's and Shel's) and it can go either way. I tend to agree that the probability of knowing sign could have helped here but we can never really prove that one way or another.

You are correct Shel that we really can't know who the superachievers are until later on. One can sometimes can get enough clues from the child to think maybe, maybe this child can be one. The longer I have been around the block, the more I realize these types are not found often.