Very Interesting...a simulation of normal hearing vs. 24 channel CI simulation

[deafdyke]

So why don't people give more effort with their HAs? It may sound terrible at first but once you train the brain(as my audie tells everyone) youll adjust and itll sound natural.

Well there are people for whom the CI is THE ONLY option. Also some ambigious canidates may have conditions like tinituas or recruitment.
There is nothing wrong with getting an implant if you're a right off the bat canidate. Hell, there's nothing wrong with getting an implant if you've got significent recruitment.
But, there does seem to be a significent minority who view the CI as the "latest" hearing technology which overcomes all the disadvantages of being hoh. (can't hear in noise? Can't localize sound? (two things that even unilateral hoh folks have a lot of trouble with) And yes.....I do know that there's FDA/Medicaid guidelines......but there are a lot of docs who will perform the ops under the table. It does seem like there's an strong industry backed push for CIs........I've been randomly IMd by someone who was all " CI! CI! CI!" I also know of someone who's on CI circle and they said that some people are all "CI! CI! CI!" Sort of like spam or "selling it"

 

[sr171soars]

Well just to add a little from my on experience. The sample is nothing like the sounds I'm getting after activation today. I can understand speech better then I thought I would but there is a tweeting or chirping sound with every pronunciation/syllable of the words I hear. Kind of like listening to Mr. Rogers and his little trolly train talk at the same time.

I'm thinking the tweeting will calm down as my brain figures out what to associate it with plus futher programming.

Sounds like a good start! Patience is the key and it will come.

 

[MoonDrifter]

I heard the difference. It was surprising how we hear less with CI unless our settings are changed.

 

[john57]

Most people will hear more than 22 different pitches with the implant since each electrode themselves have a specific range of frequencies that they will broadcast on. The brain does not fill in the blanks the signals for all the frequencies are there on the array itself. The brain then learns that a range or band of frequencies are more centrally located on the cochlea and learns to separate the difference frequencies on that one location or region in the cochlea. Since the signals needs a ground in order to have current flowing, the grounds for the freedom implant are located more or less outside of the cochlea which tells me that the signals has to travel a bit. On the AB implant they use pairs of electrodes with the grounds close by. Different methods that can give good results to the users. On the Freedom the highest frequency that can be broadcast is just under 8k. This may sound a bit limited in the high frequencies but I found that in practice the implant gives much more power and clarity in the high frequencies and some higher frequencies like compressed air leaking out from a power tool or from a air compressor really drive me nuts.

 

[Lissa]

You HAVE to remember CI users do NOT benefit from HA's or don't have much hearing with Hearing Aids

 

[john57]

There may be a time where like the Hybrid implants (hearing aid and CI together on the same ear) will be approved and people with quite a bit of hearing could get implants.

 

[Wendy H]

There may be a time where like the Hybrid implants (hearing aid and CI together on the same ear) will be approved and people with quite a bit of hearing could get implants.

Certainly would be nice to see 'hybrids' come out in the near future. The mere fact that individuals' residual hearing is destroyed when CI's are put in is the primary reason why I would not opt for a CI now.

Wendy

 

[deafdude1]

Most people will hear more than 22 different pitches with the implant since each electrode themselves have a specific range of frequencies that they will broadcast on.....

Are we talking virtual channels? I know very little about that other than reading one case study. This guy got a very special, custom map and he now can hear a whopping 128 different pitches with his 16 physical channels!

You HAVE to remember CI users do NOT benefit from HA's or don't have much hearing with Hearing Aids

Ive read CI blogs and case studies and so far, ive seen over a dozen with CI who have plenty of residual hearing, all of which I hope to achieve with stem cells. I would be happy to have as much residual hearing as they do! I can't believe they weren't happy with what they had! They had enough, particularly in the lows to hear some sounds and even speech unaided!

One lady hears 30db at 250Hz and can hear sounds and some speech unaided! Of course her audiogram slopes precipitously and her cochlear dead region could possibly start at around 625Hz, meaning she hears nothing past that. She also has a progressive loss. Still I would have waited several years longer. I wish I had her hearing. Only 30db loss! I was hearing aided with my old HAs what she hears unaided!

There may be a time where like the Hybrid implants (hearing aid and CI together on the same ear) will be approved and people with quite a bit of hearing could get implants.

Most people who are "candidates" for hybrid CIs hear too much! As long as you have decent low frequency hearing, youll score 60% to 80% speech and even be able to use the phone, ive read such stories and case studies. Besides hybrid CIs still destroy some residual hearing initally and most people lose all residual hearing within a couple of years, it speeds up the progression of hearing loss. Might as well wait and get the full CI when your hearing gets worse on it's own.

Certainly would be nice to see 'hybrids' come out in the near future. The mere fact that individuals' residual hearing is destroyed when CI's are put in is the primary reason why I would not opt for a CI now.

Wendy

I thought about hybrid CI myself but my loss exceeds 60db at 250Hz so they would only give the full CI. Besides any CI would cause a loss of residual hearing and any hearing preserved would be all gone in a couple years.

 

[deafdyke]

You HAVE to remember CI users do NOT benefit from HA's or don't have much hearing with Hearing Aids

Lissa, you're in Canada aren't you? Almost all countries have stricter canidacy requirements for implanation, then the US. As I've said before I think that those people who get nothing or very poor sound/speech perception with hearing aids SHOULD be encouraged to get implanted. However in the US, the canidacy requirements are a lot looser. So people who think "oh it's the newest gizmo. It prolly gives the best hearing ever" are sucked in. Sort of like the medication ads on TV.

 

[deafdude1]

Lissa, you're in Canada aren't you? Almost all countries have stricter canidacy requirements for implanation, then the US. As I've said before I think that those people who get nothing or very poor sound/speech perception with hearing aids SHOULD be encouraged to get implanted. However in the US, the canidacy requirements are a lot looser. So people who think "oh it's the newest gizmo. It prolly gives the best hearing ever" are sucked in. Sort of like the medication ads on TV.

Lissa is in England and she got a CI for a 110db HL in her worse ear. She actually was "borderline" despite such a deep loss because requirements in 1998 weren't so loose like they are today. :roll: I know CI today is better but not to the point of implanting moderately HOH people(WFA of better than 70db HL) :roll:

Canada's requirements are almost as lax as the USA now. This lady who got a CI has only a moderate loss in the lower frequencies. She seems obsessed with hearing higher frequencies. She got that but now hears worse in the lows. I did tests on my own and found that reducing the gains in the low frequencies reduced my speech score by 20%! I then tested with no gains above 500Hz and I lost less than 5% on my score! Although I did find that mid frequency hearing still helps for increased loudness(to a lesser extent than the lows) and environmental sounds much more than it did for speech comphrension.

I am a little surprised to be honest and will be reading more on this and doing further testing. My dad has presbycusis and is outside the speech banana in the high frequencies, yet he hears all speech including the "S" unaided. He says there's no speech information above 2000Hz, just annoying, shrill noise. Hear Again had her highs on her CI turned way down(well below the speech banana) and her speech actually improved slightly! This is why the speech banana is the way it is with the lows accounting for 60% of speech.

Insurance companies need to give everyone who wants a CI a psychological evaluation and find out why they are unhappy with their hearing and what they expect out of CI. They could reject those who see CI as a fancy Gizmo as well as those who aren't serious or realistic about CI. :roll:

 

[Lissa]

Yep CI candiate requirement were so strict here back in 1999,2000. I was borderline because I had quite a lot of hearing with hearing aids. I had a 110 db or more at all frequencies, my hearing with hearing aids together ranged from 40db to 70db and NR at 4 and 8hz

 

[deafdude1]

my 2002 audiogram shows a hearing loss of above 110db at 750Hz and up and an aided score of 35db to 85db. Ill post it in my blog.

 

[deafdyke]

Insurance companies need to give everyone who wants a CI a psychological evaluation and find out why they are unhappy with their hearing and what they expect out of CI. They could reject those who see CI as a fancy Gizmo as well as those who aren't serious or realistic about CI.

They also need to cover hearing aids.....I do think that a lot of the ambigious canidates are trying to cheat the system by getting CI instead of paying for HAs. I do understand that...........it's almost like the insurance companies will cover brand name but not generic scripts.

 

[john57]

Are we talking virtual channels? I know very little about that other than reading one case study. This guy got a very special, custom map and he now can hear a whopping 128 different pitches with his 16 physical channels!

No I am not talking about virtual channels. I am talking about that each Electrodes has a range of frequencies or pitches that they will transmit on.
For example on Freedom electrode one will handle the hightest frequency which is about 7.9KHz down to maybe 4KHz. This means that any sound between 4kHz to 7.9kHz will be using electrode one to transmit on. Electrode two then will handle 4KHz down to 1KHz ans so on. I do not have the frequency allocation table in the front of me and since my electrode 7 is turned off my frequency allocation table is a bit different. But some electrodes will handle a narror range and some will handle a wider range. Not all pitches will be transmitted at the same time since the Freedom works by sending information in a sequentially method. Normally only about 8 electrodes are used per clock sweep on the Freedom and this is to prevent crosstalk from becoming a problem and that is the maxima setting.

On the AB implant there can be virtual channels which means that different pitches sounds like that they are coming from between electrodes and the grounds. On the Freedom the grounds are before electrode one which may indicate that the signals travels a bit further. The AB implant which uses pairs of electrodes in which each signal electrode has its own ground electrode next to it. It is hard to say what method is better but the bottom line is that I know a few Orchestra players that are successfuly using either implant to perform in that work setting.

 

[Hask12]

I can't hear the demo, which at first i found frustrating, but after reading all the comments it's obvious that everyone's experience with a CI or for that matter a hearing aid is different. Adjusting to either, obviously depends on how much patience a person has. Every hearing aid I have ever worn has required an adjustment period to get used to the new sounds. I know that, and expect it. What causes many to consider an CI is the fact that what they hear with their aids, they cannot comprehend. Unfortunately, what they will hear with a CI or how well they will hear can not be predicted or guaranteed, and unfortunately the surgery cannot be reversed. To me it's a scary decision and is one of the main reasons that people must first go through a screening process prior to surgery, because there is no going back.

 

[deafdude1]

I can't hear the demo, which at first i found frustrating, but after reading all the comments it's obvious that everyone's experience with a CI or for that matter a hearing aid is different. Adjusting to either, obviously depends on how much patience a person has. Every hearing aid I have ever worn has required an adjustment period to get used to the new sounds. I know that, and expect it. What causes many to consider an CI is the fact that what they hear with their aids, they cannot comprehend. Unfortunately, what they will hear with a CI or how well they will hear can not be predicted or guaranteed, and unfortunately the surgery cannot be reversed. To me it's a scary decision and is one of the main reasons that people must first go through a screening process prior to surgery, because there is no going back.

That's exactly why I don't want to rush into CI. Id much rather have stem cells that can improve my hearing, even a 20db improvement will give me similar hearing to what a CI delivers. See my link in sig for my long blog post on me considering a CI in 3-5 years if stem cells isn't around the corner by then.

 

[Daredevel7]

Why do people keep saying 30k cochlear hair cells vs 22 electrodes?? It gives the illusion that each electrode represents one hair cell. That makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying CI recipient has about the same hearing as a person with 22 hair cells......

 

[Watermelon]

Why do people keep saying 30k cochlear hair cells vs 22 electrodes?? It gives the illusion that each electrode represents one hair cell. That makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying CI recipient has about the same hearing as a person with 22 hair cells......

In my case, it's probably because I'm not well educated on the technical details on CI as it relates to frequency perception. I do admit that I have been slacking up on my CI reading this weekend (including the personal blogs that I said I'd read - forgive me!). While cochlear hairs have hairs that are more attuned to dedicated frequencies, and tingles the nerve associated with it, electrodes are a mystery of understanding for me. As far as I can make out, the CI breaks down the sound spectrum in which it is capable of hearing through the mic into different bands/channels. And, each band/channel correspond to an electrode. Now, with the electrode tingling their own part of the nerve, if two sounds of different frequencies (we'll assume pure tone for simplicity) are captured in the same band/channel, are they played through the electrode as if they sound the same? Such that, the same frequency as perceived by the brain?

But when I re-read John57's post, it sounds like the electrode tickles a section (instead of a single point) of the auditory nerve, and the brain learns to separate that out into a span of frequencies.

 

[deafdude1]

Why do people keep saying 30k cochlear hair cells vs 22 electrodes?? It gives the illusion that each electrode represents one hair cell. That makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying CI recipient has about the same hearing as a person with 22 hair cells......

Each CI electrode does the work of several hair cells. Youd need 128 electrodes to start getting good pitch perception and 1024 electrodes to hear similar to 15,000 hair cells.

Incidentally, ive made a post in my blog(link in sig) saying I might get CI in 3-5 years if all conditions are met.

Hows your CI doing? What's your speech score up to now? I would want a 40% improvement and to get around 75% speech with CI as a realistic expectation.

 

[deafdude1]

In my case, it's probably because I'm not well educated on the technical details on CI as it relates to frequency perception. I do admit that I have been slacking up on my CI reading this weekend (including the personal blogs that I said I'd read - forgive me!). While cochlear hairs have hairs that are more attuned to dedicated frequencies, and tingles the nerve associated with it, electrodes are a mystery of understanding for me. As far as I can make out, the CI breaks down the sound spectrum in which it is capable of hearing through the mic into different bands/channels. And, each band/channel correspond to an electrode. Now, with the electrode tingling their own part of the nerve, if two sounds of different frequencies (we'll assume pure tone for simplicity) are captured in the same band/channel, are they played through the electrode as if they sound the same? Such that, the same frequency as perceived by the brain?

But when I re-read John57's post, it sounds like the electrode tickles a section (instead of a single point) of the auditory nerve, and the brain learns to separate that out into a span of frequencies.

Keep doing your research and check my blog!