Dennis said:
You make it sound like churches are all about serving people, and that the money doesn't matter. The fact is, without any money coming in, there wouldn't be a church.
The purpose of a local church is to provide a place for Christians to meet for worship, to evangelize, and to minister to people's needs. Of course churches need money to function. Salaries and utilities need to be paid, buildings need to be constructed and maintained, missionaries need support, etc. So yes, money does matter. In fact, the Bible doesn't ignore finances. There are many passages teaching and preaching about the proper use of money, and the dangers of greed. We live in a material world, and we need to use our material resources wisely. However, Christians should always look at money as a means of supporting higher goals, rather than the acquisition of money as a goal in itself.
Oh, no, I'm not stereotyping. You don't create a church unless you want people to believe what you're telling them, and you have to fund that church somehow.
I can't speak for all churches. I will just give you an example of our church (and I personally know of other similar churches with the same history). Our church started out over 40 years ago with a few believers meeting together at one member's house. After a while, that group outgrew the house meeting. They formalized their congregation with a constitution, and bought a small property for a church building. After a few years at that site, they again outgrew the facility, so they moved to another location with more vacant land, and built a larger church facility. Since that move, we have added on to the original building, and included school buildings (classrooms, gym, library, etc.) We have recently acquired some adjoining land, and will someday begin building a larger church auditorium. Why? Because every Sunday morning, every seat is filled in the present auditorium. We are packed in
tight.
My point is, the people came together first as a church group,
before they began building the church facilities. The people always come first, and the facilities come second.
Our church has also established two smaller "satellite" churches in outlying areas. One has already become independent, and the second one is striving towards that goal as they grow. Satellite church means our church provides financial and staff support to the small new churches until they are able to support themselves.
Why else would there be a "mandatory" tithing percentage requirement in the bible that churches use to justify the reason why you should give them money? And most churches require that if you're a member, you have to tithe a certain amount to maintain membership.
Our church does not have a tithing requirement. Yes, the pastor preaches that Christians should use the tithe percentage as a starting point for giving. Also, we use faith promise giving for supporting our missionaries, so that is separate from the tithe money. Wednesday night giving, and other miscellaneous offerings are not included in the tithe. The tithe is used for the general expenses of the church facilities and staff.
The pastor is not allowed access to members' financial records. Also, he is not allowed to sign any checks or make any bank withdrawals from the church account. The only person who knows how much people give is the financial secretary because she prepares the annual tax statements. No one else knows. We use tithing envelopes for our giving, and the accounts are kept by number, not name.
Members are kept on the "active" list by their attendance, not their tithe money. If they quit coming after a certain amount of time, then they are voted out of the membership. If they ever come back, they can be voted back in. Simple.
I've never been to a church where MEMBERS, not simply visitors or people who regularly show up, are not required to give a certain amount of money without having their membership revoked. So, you sure could show up to church every day of your life, but you'll never get a say in how the church is run or what beliefs are shared with other members. Poor people can cite hardship but they still are pressured to "give all they can" or have someone sponsor them.
Like I said, I can't speak for all churches; I only know about my church and a few others.
Me personally? No. Our church uses an outside auditing firm. We do have quarterly and annual business meetings for all the members to attend. We get copies of the financial report two weeks prior to each meeting so we can study them and prepare our questions. Then, at the meeting (Roberts' rules mtg), we go over the reports, ask questions, and vote.
Do you get to vote on how much the staff gets paid?
We vote on a budget that includes the salaries. We don't vote on each person's salary. Each job description includes a salary range, kind of like civil service.
Do you vote how much of the income goes to costs and the rest go to charity?
We vote on the annual budget, which includes the categories for each expense.
I'm not sure what you mean by a "charity" category. What would you include in that?
We have a fund called "Others"--it means that fund is to meet the needs of other people. It is not allowed to be used for church expenses. That fund is for people's medical expenses, tuition assistance, car repairs, emergency home repairs, moving expenses, missions trips, etc.
Our church collects items for food banks and the crisis pregnancy center. Men from our church do handyman repairs and construction projects for senior citizens and families without dads.
Church members provide weekly services for a local senior citizens center, and the Navy brig (yes, that is the same brig that recently transferred suspected terrorist Jose Padilla).
Our church financially supports 77 missionaries around the world, three travelling evangelists, and three Christian camps.
Oh? So, your pastor never commented on the WTC attacks, and condemned terrorism, in a sermon, at all? He never mentions the war in Iraq or Afghanistan, supporting the war or the military in those places? He never talked about "Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays?" He never brings up any kind of modern issue to relate your life to? I don't believe that.
I didn't say that. He doesn't tell us, "You must vote for this candidate, or else!"
Our church supports our military. We have many church members who have served or are presently serving in Iraq, Kuwait, and Afghanistan. Our church members write to them, send them "goodies" boxes, and pray for them. We send things and communicate with not just servicemen who are from our church but entire units. They write back and send photos, which are posted in our church hallway.
Of course our pastor condemns terrorism, and he supports greeting people with "Merry Christmas". So?
I bet he gives a lot of advice to people who aren't sure how to vote on an issue with "biblical advice," especially with regards to homosexual and abortion legislature.
He doesn't "give advice" about how to vote. He preaches God's Word about those issues. The members can figure out how to vote.
... I look forward to the day that something is proven correct, one way or another.
Fair enough.
to keep this thread alive..