to be proud of your country

[caz]

I know I British and this American site but what I seen on tv today is sad example of what is happening in West in general AND MADE ME SOMEWHAT ANGERY as I think it will you aswell..
The topic should we be proud of our history two members of panel said NO..Both men british citizens who get full benefits of UK but who family came from the East and practice their beliefe here in UK no one stopping them as it our laws and human right.They said got nothing we done to enhance or improve the world....It was put to them Pi88 of back next time you want penicillin or need DNA checks remember Britain abolition of salvery hundreds of years ago but slavery still legal in some countries today..
Yes we had battles that were wrong but we also had wars that were right with death of many people putting injustice right.
The Prime Minister has been berrated by a moderates today for trying stamp out extreamism the lady who did this in his own goverment I do not understand got so many moderates screaming get their children back from Syria and same breath saying he make IS stronger by doing so...
The subject can apply to you yes the South flag did wrong but can't undo what our fathers did..I do not read about hundreds of thousands confedreates who died in the stopping of slavery forgotton quickly.
As America use uk as barometer of what going on Europe then it don't read well

 

[Bebonang]

I have never understand why Europeans had to come over to just take over and take our lands without permission from us. If we said "No" to them that they can not have our lands as we are living here for centuries and centuries but they threatened, not even the treaties, would killed our ancestors and make us moved to reservations which the lands were not good. We could not get our rights as equal. Many Elders, women and children were often killed by military troops because they are just scared of us. Most of our Native men were out hunting and looking for food. Most often, the White settlers and military spread untrue stories about us being savage and primitives. This is our life the way we live for thousands and thousands of years. Why are Europeans are that way being barbaric and dangerous to us? They have no right to invade us like this. We are a peaceful people and we tried to protect ourselves and our lands from the invaders. They don't seem to be interest in peace and friendship at all with us.

Why would you be proud of our country? England, Spain and France want to invade us to get what they want like looking for gold and lands. They thought they would be able to find Gold or whatever we have as we don't have them. They should have leave us alone the way we were except if we want to learn to read and write but not our culture and tradition. The thing is they forced us to be like the white people and to say that it is better to "save the man, get rid of the Indian". That is cruel and hurtful. We have been living here before they came.

 

[whatdidyousay!]

And I could never understand why Germany send over 6 millions people to their death , took away everything they owned including the gold filling in their teeth or why over 200 girls were kidnaped by terrorists and forced to married men 2 or 3 times their age.


Yes it's horrible what happen to your people but people like my dad that fled Russia with his family as a young boy loved his adopted country and lied about his age to fight for it in WW 1 . There are people that love this country b/c they got a change to live a better live .

Believe me I hate what happen to your people and there a lot of people that feel the same way.

 

[rockin'robin]

USA...USA...USA...
This is my Home Land...
Strong Sea to Sea!
Hail to the Land We Love...
We are Born to be Free!

So Hail to Our Country!
We're Born to be Free.

 

[hoichi]

just remember we canucks wipped your insolent yank asses three times......
Canada! Canada! Canada!
Well...
Nationalism i find rather banal and borish...
Its a silly consruct really....
Anyway...

 

[Jezie]

just remember we canucks wipped your insolent yank asses three times......
Canada! Canada! Canada!
Well...
Nationalism i find rather banal and borish...
Its a silly consruct really....
Anyway...

Why silly?

 

[hoichi]

Why silly?

Because it demands loyalty by birth to a human constuct that needs to first earn it.
As well as it being divisive from the start.
The plm eith nationalism ofbthe verulent kind is it always leads to wars.
If im a rabid nationalist snd believe all is for my nation right oe wrong, and your nation stands in my nations way...its the strongest nation who will win...
But we beings are more.then a flag sre we not?
We are more then just a man made border?
nationalism as loyalty to the nation state is an idea we as a race of biengs should one day as we enlighten i hope do away with,
Not in our lifetime,
But weve bewn here as humans.fkr over a million ywars, the state has been hwre for arouns 5000, its hardly a defining festure though in thisbage it is a dominant one,
Nationalism.puts the ststes interests as first and formeosT, to hell with anyonw who gets in its way..thus a plm with it.
The state is the coldest of col monsters, anew idol, really, but an idol demanding worship and total loyalty above all else,..
We are not boen to serve the state, it is NOT the reason for our being...
contrary to nationalists howls,,,,,and chants kf petty jingoism,

 

[Jezie]

Because it demands loyalty by birth to a human constuct that needs to first earn it.
As well as it being divisive from the start.
The plm eith nationalism ofbthe verulent kind is it always leads to wars.
If im a rabid nationalist snd believe all is for my nation right oe wrong, and your nation stands in my nations way...its the strongest nation who will win...
But we beings are more.then a flag sre we not?
We are more then just a man made border?
nationalism as loyalty to the nation state is an idea we as a race of biengs should one day as we enlighten i hope do away with,
Not in our lifetime,
But weve bewn here as humans.fkr over a million ywars, the state has been hwre for arouns 5000, its hardly a defining festure though in thisbage it is a dominant one,
Nationalism.puts the ststes interests as first and formeosT, to hell with anyonw who gets in its way..thus a plm with it.
The state is the coldest of col monsters, anew idol, really, but an idol demanding worship and total loyalty above all else,..
We are not boen to serve the state, it is NOT the reason for our being...
contrary to nationalists howls,,,,,and chants kf petty jingoism,

While mostly it is determined by birth....one can (almost always) change and determine to which nation to give his or her loyalties to...

While we are more than a flag, each nations flag also represents the ideals, history, hopes, and dreams of individual nations....

While the idea of us becoming one nation and race would be nice....I do not see humans becoming enlightened enough for that to happen in the next millennia or two...
Sadly as you mentioned stronger nations have a habit of roughshoding weaker nations....

People always trying to control and subjugate people, ideals, and money....

I agree that the state or nationalism is not our purpose for being....however it does help protect and guide people through their journey down which ever path they wish to take....

 

[deafdrummer]

What leg does America have to stand on AT ALL, since it is based entirely upon the theft of land, fauna, and resources from the Native Americans, not to mention genocide and cultural arson, to even discuss pride, being a nation (as though we have been here since prehistoric times, like in Europe)? Ask that of my Cherokee ancestors...

 

[hoichi]

[

While mostly it is determined by birth....one can (almost always) change and determine to which nation to give his or her loyalties to...
...

Sure, but why give loyalty to such a thing? Why? And changing it is depdndent on many things loot is one. If the awsner to the above is just because that doesnt cut it with me. I dont hold to the divine right of kings any more then do i hold to the divine right of the state. I was born in a comonwealth country...accordingly my allegence to the queen was autmatic the second i breathed my fiest breath, as it was for all your foundinf fathers, their betesyal and treason changed that, but it still was treason according to the brit monarchy..which can shove it where our signs dont shine, this loyalty is an impostion. It is an usurpation..not a fact of my bieng..the queens arguments aside.

While we are more than a flag, each nations flag also represents the ideals, history, hopes, and dreams of individual nations....

...

So does a street gangs colors.for that matter, so does the gay flag too...because we are symbolic biengs..a flag is a neat way to cspture symbolic thought cool....

While the idea of us becoming one nation and race would be nice....I do not see humans becoming enlightened enough for that to happen in the next millennia or two...


...

Indeed..

Sadly as you mentioned stronger nations have a habit of roughshoding weaker nations....
...

Yep

People always trying to control and subjugate people, ideals, and money....
...

Yep

I agree that the state or nationalism is not our purpose for being....however it does help protect and guide people through their journey down which ever path they wish to take....

Well it depends on which side of the conquerers guns your on....

 

[Jezie]

What leg does America have to stand on AT ALL, since it is based entirely upon the theft of land, fauna, and resources from the Native Americans, not to mention genocide and cultural arson, to even discuss pride, being a nation (as though we have been here since prehistoric times, like in Europe)? Ask that of my Cherokee ancestors...

How many nations can you name that you cannot lay this charge on? Sadly people have been raping and pillaging other nations and groups since before we were in the caves...

 

[hoichi]

How many nations can you name that you cannot lay this charge on? Sadly people have been raping and pillaging other nations and groups since before we were in the caves...

Thus is why it doesnt deserve loyalty...
Genocide rape and pillige...
Are not unique to america, no one claims that, but your flag has done its fsir share, so if a flag isbdeserving of loyalty its also deserving of its dirt too.
But we shoulndt get people confused with natjon states which are different

 

[Bottesini]

I have never understand why Europeans had to come over to just take over and take our lands without permission from us. If we said "No" to them that they can not have our lands as we are living here for centuries and centuries but they threatened, not even the treaties, would killed our ancestors and make us moved to reservations which the lands were not good. We could not get our rights as equal. Many Elders, women and children were often killed by military troops because they are just scared of us. Most of our Native men were out hunting and looking for food. Most often, the White settlers and military spread untrue stories about us being savage and primitives. This is our life the way we live for thousands and thousands of years. Why are Europeans are that way being barbaric and dangerous to us? They have no right to invade us like this. We are a peaceful people and we tried to protect ourselves and our lands from the invaders. They don't seem to be interest in peace and friendship at all with us.

Why would you be proud of our country? England, Spain and France want to invade us to get what they want like looking for gold and lands. They thought they would be able to find Gold or whatever we have as we don't have them. They should have leave us alone the way we were except if we want to learn to read and write but not our culture and tradition. The thing is they forced us to be like the white people and to say that it is better to "save the man, get rid of the Indian". That is cruel and hurtful. We have been living here before they came.

Keep it in mind that you and I are both mixed race, not pure Native ancestry.

So if they never showed up neither you nor I would have ever existed.

Peoples have been conquered and replaced many times since the beginning of the world.

I would never wish myself out of existence, but that is exactly what you are doing.

The hatred gets really old.

 

[Jezie]

[

Sure, but why give loyalty to such a thing? Why? And changing it is depdndent on many things loot is one. If the awsner to the above is just because that doesnt cut it with me. I dont hold to the divine right of kings any more then do i hold to the divine right of the state. I was born in a comonwealth country...accordingly my allegence to the queen was autmatic the second i breathed my fiest breath, as it was for all your foundinf fathers, their betesyal and treason changed that, but it still was treason according to the brit monarchy..which can shove it where our signs dont shine, this loyalty is an impostion. It is an usurpation..not a fact of my bieng..the queens arguments aside.


So does a street gangs colors.for that matter, so does the gay flag too...because we are symbolic biengs..a flag is a neat way to cspture symbolic thought cool....

Well it depends on which side of the conquerers guns your on....

Why give such loyalties to such a thing.... hmm... partly because I have drank the koolaid and nibbled the cookies for good measure....

While I believe that we as a race can guide ourselves without so many rules, laws, controls, ect, I cannot see us as a race being able to be all sunshine and rainbows....

Too long have we fought among ourselves for silly things that we cannot seem to stop.... dropping national loyalties from the state to the citizen or vise versa opens the people to vast hardships that most firat nations have not seen since the dark ages...

Yep, forefathers of the US were treasons... no two ways about it.... many nations before and after us have been as well.... it is the nature of governments...

Agreed about the flags...just because a person or group has loyalties to his or her nation does not mean they stop becoming individuals...

And that is beyond the truth about the which side of the guns you are on....

 

[Jezie]

Thus is why it doesnt deserve loyalty...
Genocide rape and pillige...
Are not unique to america, no one claims that, but your flag has done its fsir share, so if a flag isbdeserving of loyalty its also deserving of its dirt too.
But we shoulndt get people confused with natjon states which are different

True they are different, however not by a whole lot... but a nation should stay mindful of its dirt and learn from it... Sadly I do not see that happening....when they learn from it most nations either try to bury their dark history, ignore it, or go way over board to "make amends"...

 

[hoichi]

[

Why give such loyalties to such a thing.... hmm... partly because I have drank the koolaid and nibbled the cookies for good measure....
..

Thats alright, we all have one way or another...

While I believe that we as a race can guide ourselves without so many rules, laws, controls, ect, I cannot see us as a race being able to be all sunshine and rainbows....
..

Never will be all sunshine and rainbows, never claimed such...

Too long have we fought among ourselves for silly things that we cannot seem to stop...


..

Yep

. dropping national loyalties from the state to the citizen or vise versa opens the people to vast hardships that most firat nations have not seen since the dark ages...

..

How so?, where is the evedence of such, or is it just an idea that serves to perpetuate the state, a self serving ides pounded in everyones heads...

Yep, forefathers of the US were treasons... no two ways about it.... many nations before and after us have been as well.... it is the nature of governments...
..

So why give loyalty to something whos very nature is disloyal?

Agreed about the flags...just because a person or group has loyalties to his or her nation does not mean they stop becoming individuals...
..

Indeed. But when your automaticly rewuired and xdmanded to be loyal from your first breath to an institution or person how much individual choice is there?

And that is beyond the truth about the which side of the guns you are on....

The truth as in your still individuals while being genocided, raped and pilkiged....
True...
Woe to the vanquished....

 

[hoichi]

True they are different, however not by a whole lot... but a nation should stay mindful of its dirt and learn from it... Sadly I do not see that happening....when they learn from it most nations either try to bury their dark history, ignore it, or go way over board to "make amends"...

Well to what are you reffering in not by a whole lot?

 

[Jezie]

[



Thats alright, we all have one way or another...



Never will be all sunshine and rainbows, never claimed such...




Yep



How so?, where is the evedence of such, or is it just an idea that serves to perpetuate the state, a self serving ides pounded in everyones heads...


So why give loyalty to something whos very nature is disloyal?



Indeed. But when your automaticly rewuired and xdmanded to be loyal from your first breath to an institution or person how much individual choice is there?



The truth as in your still individuals while being genocided, raped and pilkiged....
True...
Woe to the vanquished....

Please do not get me wrong, I was not meaning to imply that you were claiming that it would be all sunshine and rainbows.

The evidence of such lays in the hands of history and thought.... almost every time a nation or its citizens have severed ties with each other chaos ensues....the nation falls several steps backwards and struggles to right itself again...

As always you ask good head scratching queations.... why give loyalties to something that at its core is disloyal?
... Because, I do not believe that the government as a whole means to be dishonest nor disloyal. ... it is the people of the governemnt that are and have always been self serving.... Sadly that is the nature of humans... some of my answer to this question is a private matter that we can cover via pm....
A person has individual freedom when he or she breaks from social group mind and learns to think for their self and not a moment sooner....if a person never manages this achievement it is a moot point....

 

[Jezie]

Well to what are you reffering in not by a whole lot?

How does a nation state become so ... uniform for lack of better wording?
It is a smaller scale but the same things happen in the development and maintenance of a nation state as to what happens for nations...

 

[Bebonang]

Keep it in mind that you and I are both mixed race, not pure Native ancestry.

So if they never showed up neither you nor I would have ever existed.

Peoples have been conquered and replaced many times since the beginning of the world.

I would never wish myself out of existence, but that is exactly what you are doing.

The hatred gets really old.

The point is that Europeans should have stayed in their own countries and have their ways and culture. This is suppose to be their home. They can do a lot of damage to themselves if they are so barbaric to the way they treated low common people. But they were being shipped for the Gold and looking for whatever they are looking including the lands that they should asked us first. If we say "No", the Europeans should respect us as we have live here for many centuries.

It does not matter if we are not born if the Europeans remained in Europe while many nations in North American including Mexico and South America can live in peace. Every one of us from different nations and cultures had been here before Europe countries like France, German and UK came to our shores. We do not want them to come over if they were not friendly and can learn to live with us. We don't forced them. They also should not have tried to change us to be like the Europeans. All they should have asked if we can dress to be like them, but the Europeans wanted to forced to assimilate us by killing us and to forced our Native children to go to boarding schools where there were much abusive and being killed off just to make rooms in boarding schools. It happened the same in Canada in residential schools, too. We are not the only one. In Australia, White people had forced Native children in boarding schools and they had the worse treatments which they had suffered so much. What is wrong with our color skins being black and brown? We are human beings as much as any of White people.

Beside back then, the Natives were too friendly to know about their conquest and their cruel ways on how they treated us with abusive attitude and killing us to get what they want. All they care about what they want!!!! They just want to conquer to get what they want and reap what they found like Gold. I don't see their needs at all. This is what make me upset over this.