To all hearing parents of Deaf kids

[jillio]

It is not. It is just a deceptive and manipulative form or argument. If you compare "A" to something that is universally acknowledged as negative, i.e. White Supremacy, then you bootstrap "A" into having the same negative perception such as White Supremacy.

This is not an issue about parental needs, no one but Jillio brought that into the mix, it is about parents making decisions that are in the best interests of thier child as they have determined them to me.

Fruedian slip?

In this instance, the parental decision centers around language or comunication choices for their deaf child. While there is agreement that there are different methods and choices, there is no agreement that one method is the best for every child. There is also no bright line test for any one method. You just cannot say, give a child a ci, then speech and language lessons 3 times a week for one year and if your child has not developed oral speech and language then move on. It does not work that way.

There is agreeement as to what is best for the majority. No one has ever claimed that there aren't exceptions. The claim is that what works for the excpetion, does not work for the majority. That is why they are know as outliers.
You also have to take some of these terms with a grain of salt such as "language delays". What exactly does that mean? What is the extent of the delay? Is it one that can be corrected? Is it one that will never allow the child to develop language? The truth is that it is a subjective term focapable of misleading and manipulation by those who toss it around.

Language delay has been operationally defined for years. A simple understanding of developmental issues and an ability to read and understand an empirical study is all that is necessary to understand that operational definition.

Bottom line as several of you have said, each child is different, there is no one method for each and every child and the parents usually know their child better than anyone else.
Rick

There have been proven methods that work for the majority. Additional individualized services are determined through accommodation and IEP. All eductional environments operate on the philosophy of what is best for the majority. That is why we have a ratio of approximately 28-1 in the classroom. If that were not the case, we would have to reduce all education to a 1 to 1 ratio.

 

[jillio]

Agreed, if it was proven to work for the majority of the deaf population, I would promote the use of it. However, I dont have problems with using it as a teaching tool just like I use SEE as a teaching tool during my Language Arts classes. Just dont use those two for language development..that's the difference.

I feel like my grammar is really messed up today...is "proven to work" an error? LOL!

Nope, it is not an error. Perfect, as a matter of fact.

 

[doubletrouble]

Here we go again... why is it that we simply agree to disagree. Despite what others may say, I have personally seen many, many CI children who are successful in their enviroment. That's a fact. Rick's daughter is one of them and back then, he chose the road less travelled. Stop saying that majority of CI users are failures- because they aren't. At least not around here... and I know that this is going to be fodder for Jillio and Shel, by my Deaf nephew- who has two parents who sign ASL( they are Deaf) involved with the Deaf community, implanted their children at a relatively young age have deaf brothers and cousins and aunts and uncles, told his mother the other day at the age of 8, that he's not deaf- he is not the same as his mother- he can hear with his implants on and is only deaf when he takes them off. So here is an example of a child who is clearly immersed in the Deaf community and yet doesn't identify himself as D but d.

 

[jillio]

"Done to your child"? What is that supposed to mean?

You are wrong, science has not shown that there is one single way to educate a deaf child. There are pros and cons to every choice.

Science has shown, however, that there are methods that address the cognitive, developmental, educational, and psycho-social needs of a deaf child much better than others.

 

[jillio]

Here we go again... why is it that we simply agree to disagree. Despite what others may say, I have personally seen many, many CI children who are successful in their enviroment. That's a fact. Rick's daughter is one of them and back then, he chose the road less travelled. Stop saying that majority of CI users are failures- because they aren't. At least not around here... and I know that this is going to be fodder for Jillio and Shel, by my Deaf nephew- who has two parents who sign ASL( they are Deaf) involved with the Deaf community, implanted their children at a relatively young age have deaf brothers and cousins and aunts and uncles, told his mother the other day at the age of 8, that he's not deaf- he is not the same as his mother- he can hear with his implants on and is only deaf when he takes them off. So here is an example of a child who is clearly immersed in the Deaf community and yet doesn't identify himself as D but d.

I don't think that anyone has said that the majority of CI users are "failures". As a matter of fact, I don't apply the term "failure" to any child. I do however, apply it to outmoded educational philosophies that have failed deaf students again and again.

Nor has anyone ever claimed that there aren't exceptions. However, they are known as exceptions because what is true for them is not true for the majority.

 

[Cheri]

"Done to your child"? What is that supposed to mean?

You are wrong, science has not shown that there is one single way to educate a deaf child. There are pros and cons to every choice.

and rick48 (you too. )

 

[jillio]

Just because there are those that chose to ignore the empirical findings does not mean that they don't exist.

 

[faire_jour]

Here we go again... why is it that we simply agree to disagree. Despite what others may say, I have personally seen many, many CI children who are successful in their enviroment. That's a fact. Rick's daughter is one of them and back then, he chose the road less travelled. Stop saying that majority of CI users are failures- because they aren't. At least not around here... and I know that this is going to be fodder for Jillio and Shel, by my Deaf nephew- who has two parents who sign ASL( they are Deaf) involved with the Deaf community, implanted their children at a relatively young age have deaf brothers and cousins and aunts and uncles, told his mother the other day at the age of 8, that he's not deaf- he is not the same as his mother- he can hear with his implants on and is only deaf when he takes them off. So here is an example of a child who is clearly immersed in the Deaf community and yet doesn't identify himself as D but d.

I think you have a very interesting perspective as a CODA who also has a deaf child. You have the benefit of full immersion in both cultures and languages. It is a great situation to be in and I think that fact that you, and your family have chosen implants for the children, shows that a CI is NOT audism, but a tool.

There is a trend of more and more Deaf of Deaf families choosing CI's. Why? Because they work. I spoke to the director of the CI program at MSSD and she says that she has a LOT of Deaf of Deaf kids in her program and that the whole attitude is changing. They are using spoken language as well as ASL and that often the classes are conducted in spoken language....at the bi-bi school!

Again, all I can say is that there is NOT one way to do it, there are CONS to everything.

 

[Frisky Feline]

folks, let's focus on the hearing parents who are willing to sign for their deaf kids. it is not about CI or HA or anything. thanks

 

[faire_jour]

Just because there are those that chose to ignore the empirical findings does not mean that they don't exist.

Are you implying here that there is one way that is shown to have no cons, and that is the one way that will work for ALL deaf kids? If not, what was this statement saying? Could you be clear?

 

[jillio]

Are you implying here that there is one way that is shown to have no cons, and that is the one way that will work for ALL deaf kids? If not, what was this statement saying? Could you be clear?

I don't know how much plainer I can say it. There are methods that have been shown, empircally and anecdotally, to provide the greatest benefit for the majority. As far as all deaf kids are concerned, those methods certainly aren't going to impede all deaf kids. However, there are methods that do impede deaf kids cognitive, educational, psycho-social, and linguistic development.

Please read my words as written, and try not to twist them to your agenda.

 

[jillio]

folks, let's focus on the hearing parents who are willing to sign for their deaf kids. it is not about CI or HA or anything. thanks

Thank you, Frisky. Somehow, it always seems that someone must bring any discussion to the CI.

 

[faire_jour]

folks, let's focus on the hearing parents who are willing to sign for their deaf kids. it is not about CI or HA or anything. thanks

But to some, that isn't good enough.

How much sign?
Does the parent simcom or do they have to do straight ASL?
Does ASL have to be first or can both languages be learned at the same time?
Is "baby signing" enough if your child is doing well with spoken language?
ASL? or is CASE good enough?
Do they have to go to a voice off ASL school, or can they be mainstreamed with an interpreter?
What if the child develops spoken language and chooses to start dropping signs?

 

[faire_jour]

I don't know how much plainer I can say it. There are methods that have been shown, empircally and anecdotally, to provide the greatest benefit for the majority. As far as all deaf kids are concerned, those methods certainly aren't going to impede all deaf kids. However, there are methods that do impede deaf kids cognitive, educational, psycho-social, and linguistic development.

Please read my words as written, and try not to twist them to your agenda.

Since when is asking for clarification "twisting words to (my) agenda"?

 

[jillio]

Since when is asking for clarification "twisting words to (my) agenda"?

When you attempt to insert meaning and wording that was never there.

 

[Cheri]

Just because there are those that chose to ignore the empirical findings does not mean that they don't exist.

Okayyy tell me one thing, how come oral, total communication and cued speech are still around as of today if those programs fails the vast majority of deaf individuals? You've heard stories by each deaf individuals their advantages and disadvantages in each program they were educated in, not all of them experienced the same results. Many do, many don't.

 

[Frisky Feline]

But to some, that isn't good enough.

How much sign?
Does the parent simcom or do they have to do straight ASL?
Does ASL have to be first or can both languages be learned at the same time?
Is "baby signing" enough if your child is doing well with spoken language?
ASL? or is CASE good enough?
Do they have to go to a voice off ASL school, or can they be mainstreamed with an interpreter?
What if the child develops spoken language and chooses to start dropping signs?

I understand. this isn't what my thread is about.
I just only want to see how many do the hearing parents willing to learn ASL to communciate their kids. This thread is a simple question that doesnt involve with schooling or CI or Spoken language or so on.


Perfect example, gil eastman's quote “Just a thought….it is interesting to see that DEAF people can function in the hearing world very well while hearing people cannot function well in the DEAF world. “ -

that's what it makes me wonder.

 

[jillio]

But to some, that isn't good enough.

How much sign?
Does the parent simcom or do they have to do straight ASL?
Does ASL have to be first or can both languages be learned at the same time?
Is "baby signing" enough if your child is doing well with spoken language?
ASL? or is CASE good enough?
Do they have to go to a voice off ASL school, or can they be mainstreamed with an interpreter?
What if the child develops spoken language and chooses to start dropping signs?

Perhaps that is the biggest problem.

 

[faire_jour]

When you attempt to insert meaning and wording that was never there.

I asked a question :roll:

 

[jillio]

I asked a question :roll:

And your question was phrased so as to insert wording and meaning that was never there.