The new deaf generation....speaking and listening

[jillio]

I wish people would pay attention to that.

**sigh** Me, too, Bott.

 

[Grummer]

It is implied in the statement. Are you having difficulty with fluency in your written English? Or is this just another attempt to portray yourself as superior in your use of English by playing word games? I would suspect the second.

a likely story

 

[jillio]

I personally find that it's easier for me to sign - though I'm still very much learning - than it is to speak. I still have difficulty with certain words and still have to think sometimes about how to do them. People can have difficulty understanding me. This thread and the discussion on speech therapy memories brought back a lot for me too, including the tongue depressor thing, and staring at a mirror, the way the room smelled, the games we did. I felt pretty embarrassed or frustrated by it many times, but the card games we played were kind of fun. In some ways it was relief for me to be in there because than I was safe from the other kids. But it was also isolating. Though I honestly don't know now if I was born with a hearing loss or not <and I know the situation for hearing kids attending speech and language therapy vs. that for deaf children attending, is different> - I can relate to many things people are discussing.

When I was first learning to sign, I never would have believed that, in many situations, I find ASL to be easier and preferable to spoken language. But that is the way it has played out. There are some things that just don't adapt to the linear phrasing of spoken English.

 

[KristinaB]

Please look up fluency. You will see no mention of resonance, articulation, even clarity. You are talking about a very different measure. The issue we're discussing is fluency.

flu·ent   
[floo-uhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
spoken or written with ease: fluent french.
2.
able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily: a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages.
3.
easy; graceful: fluent motion; fluent curves.
4.
flowing, as a stream.
5.
capable of flowing; fluid, as liquids or gases.
6.
easily changed or adapted; pliant.

Fluency | Define Fluency at Dictionary.com

 

[Bottesini]

flu·ent   
[floo-uhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
spoken or written with ease: fluent french.
2.
able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily: a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages.
3.
easy; graceful: fluent motion; fluent curves.
4.
flowing, as a stream.
5.
capable of flowing; fluid, as liquids or gases.
6.
easily changed or adapted; pliant.

Fluency | Define Fluency at Dictionary.com

And it refers to spoken orwritten.
Everytime the definition goes up it proves what I said.

 

[KristinaB]

Sorry - I did this before reading to the end of the thread.

 

[kokonut]

kind of ironic a deaf person coming on and saying wow these deaf people talk really well.

Nothing ironic about it coming from a person who is hoh. And, yeah, they can talk really well. Sooo....

 

[DeafCaroline]

flu·ent   
[floo-uhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
spoken or written with ease: fluent french.
2.
able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily: a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages.
3.
easy; graceful: fluent motion; fluent curves.
4.
flowing, as a stream.
5.
capable of flowing; fluid, as liquids or gases.
6.
easily changed or adapted; pliant.

Fluency | Define Fluency at Dictionary.com

GrendelQ - I grew up in speech therapy - you are talking about one word alone - fluency - just that one word.
I am talking in speech pathology terms - which is language fluency, speech fluency.

I am not misunderstanding at all. I know what language fluency and speech fluency means....I learned them from my speech therapists.

You are focusing on one word in a dictionary - i am focusing on fluency within language, within speech.

I am not understanding why you haven't gotten that yet from my posts and I even posted definitions of language and speech fluencies and you're all like no no no no that's not what it means. Where did you get such ridiculous ideas?

where do you think i got the definitions for speech fluency which is including articulation and resonance? from a speech therapist.

Anyway. I'm starting to get my fill of bickering over semantics. It's getting tiresome.

 

[KristinaB]

Hey - just found this, does it help or create more of a muddle in this thread?

Fluency (also called volubility and loquaciousness) is the property of a person or of a system that delivers information quickly and with expertise.

Contents
1 Speech
2 Language fluency
3 Reading fluency
4 Fluency in creativity
5 See also
6 References
7 External links
Speech

Fluency is a speech language pathology term that means the smoothness or flow with which sounds, syllables, words and phrases are joined together when speaking quickly.[1] Fluency disorders is used as a collective term for cluttering and stuttering. Both disorders have breaks in the fluidity of speech, and both have the fluency breakdown of repetition of parts of speech. Fluency disorders are most often complex in nature and they tend to occur more often in boys than in girls.[2]

Language fluency

Further information: Language proficiency
Language fluency is used informally to denote broadly a high level of language proficiency, most typically foreign language or another learned language, and more narrowly to denote fluid language use, as opposed to slow, halting use. In this narrow sense, fluency is necessary but not sufficient for language proficiency: fluent language users (particularly uneducated native speakers) may have narrow vocabularies, limited discourse strategies, and inaccurate word use. They may be illiterate, as well. Native language speakers are often incorrectly referred to as fluent.

Fluency in English is basically ones ability to be understood by both native and non native listeners. A higher level would be bilingual, which indicates one is native in two languages, either having learned them simultaneously or one after the other. In Murcia, Spain, for example the local government distinguishes the two.[citation needed]

In the sense of proficiency, "fluency" encompasses a number of related but separable skills:

Reading: the ability to easily read and understand texts written in the language;[3]
Writing: the ability to formulate written texts in the language;
Comprehension: the ability to follow and understand speech in the language;
Speaking: the ability to produce speech in the language and be understood by its speakers.
To some extent, these skills can be acquired separately. Generally, the later in life a learner approaches the study of a foreign language, the harder it is to acquire auditory comprehension and fluent speaking skills; however, the Critical Period Hypothesis is a hotly debated topic. For instance, reading and writing skills in a foreign language can be acquired more easily after the primary language acquisition period of youth is over.[citation needed]

Reading fluency

Reading fluency is often confused with language fluency (see above). Reading fluency is the ability to read text accurately and quickly. Fluency bridges word decoding and comprehension. Comprehension is understanding what has been read. Fluency is a set of skills that allows readers to rapidly decode text while maintaining a high level of comprehension (National Reading Panel, 2001).

Reading fluency encompasses both rate of words read per minute, as well as the ability to read with expression.[3]

A first benchmark for fluency is being able to "sight read" some words. The idea is that children will recognize on sight the most common words written in their native language and that such instant reading of these words will allow them to read and understand text more quickly.

As children learn to read, the speed at which they read becomes an important measure of fluency.

(National Reading Panel, Teaching Children to Read: An Evidence-Based Assessment of the Scientific Research Literature on Reading and Its Implications for Reading Instruction—Reports of the Subgroups. A complete copy of the NRP report can be read, downloaded, or ordered at no cost from the NRP website at National Reading Panel (NRP) - Home.)

Fluency in creativity

Studies in the assessment of creativity list fluency as one of the four primary elements in creative thinking. The others being flexibility, originality and elaboration. Fluency in creative thinking is seen as the ability to think of many diverse ideas quickly.



Read more: Fluency: Information from Answers.com

 

[GrendelQ]

GrendelQ - I grew up in speech therapy - you are talking about one word alone - fluency - just that one word.
I am talking in speech pathology terms - which is language fluency, speech fluency.

I am not misunderstanding at all. I know what language fluency and speech fluency means....I learned them from my speech therapists.

You are focusing on one word in a dictionary - i am focusing on fluency within language, within speech.

I am not understanding why you haven't gotten that yet from my posts and I even posted definitions of language and speech fluencies and you're all like no no no no that's not what it means. Where did you get such ridiculous ideas?

where do you think i got the definitions for speech fluency which is including articulation and resonance? from a speech therapist.

Anyway. I'm starting to get my fill of bickering over semantics. It's getting tiresome.

OK, since fluency is largely a matter of how comfortable you are with using language -- the ease component, I can see how your memories of how your speech therapist defined fluency would play into whether or not you feel able to use spoken language with fluency. I think it's more than a matter of splitting hairs semantically, we just look at things very differently: from your description of articulation and resonance, I think you see fluency as the mechanics of producing speech on the lips and I see it as thoughts flowing with ease out of the brain in the form of language via whatever channel available, without barriers, resonance and articulation be damned.

 

[kokonut]

Hey - just found this, does it help or create more of a muddle in this thread?

Fluency (also called volubility and loquaciousness) is the property of a person or of a system that delivers information quickly and with expertise.

Contents
1 Speech
2 Language fluency
3 Reading fluency
4 Fluency in creativity
5 See also
6 References
7 External links
Speech

Fluency is a speech language pathology term that means the smoothness or flow with which sounds, syllables, words and phrases are joined together when speaking quickly.[1] Fluency disorders is used as a collective term for cluttering and stuttering. Both disorders have breaks in the fluidity of speech, and both have the fluency breakdown of repetition of parts of speech. Fluency disorders are most often complex in nature and they tend to occur more often in boys than in girls.[2]

Language fluency

Further information: Language proficiency
Language fluency is used informally to denote broadly a high level of language proficiency, most typically foreign language or another learned language, and more narrowly to denote fluid language use, as opposed to slow, halting use. In this narrow sense, fluency is necessary but not sufficient for language proficiency: fluent language users (particularly uneducated native speakers) may have narrow vocabularies, limited discourse strategies, and inaccurate word use. They may be illiterate, as well. Native language speakers are often incorrectly referred to as fluent.

Fluency in English is basically ones ability to be understood by both native and non native listeners. A higher level would be bilingual, which indicates one is native in two languages, either having learned them simultaneously or one after the other. In Murcia, Spain, for example the local government distinguishes the two.[citation needed]

In the sense of proficiency, "fluency" encompasses a number of related but separable skills:

Reading: the ability to easily read and understand texts written in the language;[3]
Writing: the ability to formulate written texts in the language;
Comprehension: the ability to follow and understand speech in the language;
Speaking: the ability to produce speech in the language and be understood by its speakers.
To some extent, these skills can be acquired separately. Generally, the later in life a learner approaches the study of a foreign language, the harder it is to acquire auditory comprehension and fluent speaking skills; however, the Critical Period Hypothesis is a hotly debated topic. For instance, reading and writing skills in a foreign language can be acquired more easily after the primary language acquisition period of youth is over.[citation needed]

Reading fluency

Reading fluency is often confused with language fluency (see above). Reading fluency is the ability to read text accurately and quickly. Fluency bridges word decoding and comprehension. Comprehension is understanding what has been read. Fluency is a set of skills that allows readers to rapidly decode text while maintaining a high level of comprehension (National Reading Panel, 2001).

Reading fluency encompasses both rate of words read per minute, as well as the ability to read with expression.[3]

A first benchmark for fluency is being able to "sight read" some words. The idea is that children will recognize on sight the most common words written in their native language and that such instant reading of these words will allow them to read and understand text more quickly.

As children learn to read, the speed at which they read becomes an important measure of fluency.

(National Reading Panel, Teaching Children to Read: An Evidence-Based Assessment of the Scientific Research Literature on Reading and Its Implications for Reading Instruction—Reports of the Subgroups. A complete copy of the NRP report can be read, downloaded, or ordered at no cost from the NRP website at National Reading Panel (NRP) - Home.)

Fluency in creativity

Studies in the assessment of creativity list fluency as one of the four primary elements in creative thinking. The others being flexibility, originality and elaboration. Fluency in creative thinking is seen as the ability to think of many diverse ideas quickly.



Read more: Fluency: Information from Answers.com

Ooooh....love that word..."loquaciousness."

 

[DeafCaroline]

OK, since fluency is largely a matter of how comfortable you are with using language -- the ease component, I can see how your memories of how your speech therapist defined fluency would play into whether or not you feel able to use spoken language with fluency. I think it's more than a matter of splitting hairs semantically, we just look at things very differently: from your description of articulation and resonance, I think you see fluency as the mechanics of producing speech on the lips and I see it as thoughts flowing with ease out of the brain in the form of language via whatever channel available, without barriers, resonance and articulation be damned.

Why didn't you say so in the first place?! I'm kidding, I say that sometimes to people after they had to repeat themselves several times.

Ok, now Im fluently understanding you (good one, eh? ) . We were totally looking at fluency from different angles.

 

[Bottesini]

OK, since fluency is largely a matter of how comfortable you are with using language -- the ease component, I can see how your memories of how your speech therapist defined fluency would play into whether or not you feel able to use spoken language with fluency. I think it's more than a matter of splitting hairs semantically, we just look at things very differently: from your description of articulation and resonance, I think you see fluency as the mechanics of producing speech on the lips and I see it as thoughts flowing with ease out of the brain in the form of language via whatever channel available, without barriers, resonance and articulation be damned.

Fluently expressed!

 

[BecLak]

That is why I said that the definition posted by koko had to be modified, as it was based on a hearing model.

And this is why I went to the extreme to say that ALL d/Deaf and even HoH would never be considered truly fluent under that definition.

Even Grendel modifies it to fit with her child. With this modification then yes many of us would be fluent even with speech. But have you noticed the change in approach, from first Koko's definition to the 'modified', in an attempt to prove me wrong?

 

[GrendelQ]

And this is why I went to the extreme to say that ALL d/Deaf and even HoH would never be considered truly fluent under that definition.

Even Grendel modifies it to fit with her child. With this modification then yes many of us would be fluent even with speech. But have you noticed the change in approach, from first Koko's definition to the 'modified', in an attempt to prove me wrong?

Ahh, beclak, I've not modified a thing to "fit" my daughter. Your many extremes have nothing to do with me. Walking back now that you've had a chance to see how offensive your grand proclamations have been?

 

[BecLak]

Ahh, beclak, I've not modified a thing to "fit" my daughter. Your many extremes have nothing to do with me. Walking back now that you've had a chance to see how offensive your grand proclamations have been?

I am just giving you the stark reality of that definition. That is all.

 

[Beach girl]

ILR

This site has information about the Foreign Service Institute's definitions of fluency for students studying foreign languages. It might have some relevance here, as some have said that for deaf children, particularly, English or any other spoken language is a "foreign" language to them, as opposed to sign-language.

The scale goes from 0 (no fluency or ability to say anything beyond a few words in the target language) up to 5 (the fluency of a native, well-educated speaker). There are other sections for evaluating reading and writing which use the same scale.

Note that you can be considered quite fluent (4+ level) and still have an accent. That might cover some who speak with a "deaf accent."

For a level 5 speaker, however: "Pronunciation is typically consistent with that of well-educated native speakers of a non-stigmatized dialect."

Professional Foreign Service officers typically must achieve 3/3 (speaking/reading) fluency levels in the target language (the language of the country to which they are assigned), and they are strongly encouraged to keep improving their language fluency while at post.

So perhaps some here who are arguing that HoH and some deaf (especially late-deafened) individuals are "fluent," they might be accepting a level of fluency that might be graded anything from 3 up to a 5. (A 3 can converse well, but might have some vocabulary or pronounciation deficits.) But those who are saying "No, that's not true, no deaf or HoH individual can really be fluent in English or any spoken language" are thinking only of the highest level, the "functionally native proficiency," and believe that no HoH/deaf person reaches that level.

Here's the page for writing:

ILR

Grammar and spelling errors would prevent someone from being classified at Level 5, "functionally native proficiency." Even a Level 4 should be "able to write the language precisely and accurately..."

For reading comprehension, the breakdowns are similar.

ILR

FS Officers get a two-part score, with the first number being for spoken language and the second one for reading. It is very common to have a higher number for reading than for speaking. For instance, I have a 3+/4 in Spanish - my reading is half a level better than my speaking.

Maybe some of the deaf educators here could hazard a guess as to what might be typical scores for their students. Perhaps their scores also might very commonly be better in reading than in speaking; that wouldn't be surprising at all. You could probably evaluate ASL usage the same way; a well-educated native signer being a "5," and lesser abilities at producing and comprehending would be at the lower levels.

 

[Jiro]

The issue is not whether someone "speaks like hearies" or "the miracle of CI/HA". It's about how comfortable someone is in the use of language: fluency is flow, ease, speed. The issue is fluency. You can be perfectly fluent and not have perfect diction. You can be perfectly fluent and slur. You can be perfectly fluent and not "speak the same as a hearie."

Grendel - you are so mistaken about your so-called definition of fluency. Please don't get so defensive.

When a person is fluent in any language - it usually means one is able to effectively and clearly communicate with other people. What good is your fluency if nobody can understand you? That applies to both ASL and spoken language.

I see some posters talking about "being comfortable" with your language. That has NOTHING to do with fluency. Again - what good is your comfort with your language if nobody can understand you? My parents are fluent in both English and Korean languages but they are much more comfortable with Korean language. and I am fluent in English and ASL but I am much more comfortable with English language.

It's fine if you know multiple languages but you'll need to be fluent in any language in order to communicate with others otherwise it's useless except for yourself.

 

[GrendelQ]

Why didn't you say so in the first place?! I'm kidding, I say that sometimes to people after they had to repeat themselves several times.

Ok, now Im fluently understanding you (good one, eh? ) . We were totally looking at fluency from different angles.

completely makes sense now! I don't think you'd see my daughter as fluent the way I do if you heard her speak but she could tell you a great story.

 

[Beach girl]

If you have time to read the links I posted, Grendel, I'd love to know where you'd rate your daughter on that scale. Maybe 3+? Able to converse well on many topics, but with some pronounciation errors?