Texas lawmaker to introduce anti-immigration bill

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Not surprised that race is not an issue to you two. Not a whole lot of blue-eyed redheads coming in. See, you don't think race is an issue because you pretend there is nothing racist about giving the police discretionary power to stop people.
That's simply not true. The law gives the police no more power to stop people than they already have. However, I can't blame you for misunderstanding. So many people, all the way up to the President, have blatantly lied about what this law does.

Ain't it great to be a white male? :roll:
When people say stuff like this, I hear the following: I have no idea how to debate your point, so rather than consider that you may have a point or think about a substantive response, I'm just going to smugly paint you as a racist.

I'd like to think we could get through the immigration debate without accusations of racism, but we couldn't even make it through the health care debate without that. Oh well. It's not as if racial divisiveness has never torn apart entire countries and led to mass slaughters...
 
That's simply not true. The law gives the police no more power to stop people than they already have. However, I can't blame you for misunderstanding. So many people, all the way up to the President, have blatantly lied about what this law does.


When people say stuff like this, I hear the following: I have no idea how to debate your point, so rather than consider that you may have a point or think about a substantive response, I'm just going to smugly paint you as a racist.

I'd like to think we could get through the immigration debate without accusations of racism, but we couldn't even make it through the health care debate without that. Oh well. It's not as if racial divisiveness has never torn apart entire countries and led to mass slaughters...

I never understood the psychology behind calling someone a racist when they recognize a racist situation for what it is.

If I overheard a white person calling a black person the N word, and I called them out on it, would that make me a racist, and if so, why?
 
That's simply not true. The law gives the police no more power to stop people than they already have. However, I can't blame you for misunderstanding. So many people, all the way up to the President, have blatantly lied about what this law does.


When people say stuff like this, I hear the following: I have no idea how to debate your point, so rather than consider that you may have a point or think about a substantive response, I'm just going to smugly paint you as a racist.

I'd like to think we could get through the immigration debate without accusations of racism, but we couldn't even make it through the health care debate without that. Oh well. It's not as if racial divisiveness has never torn apart entire countries and led to mass slaughters...

I think what saywhatkid is trying to say here is that many people who have never experienced racism first-hand don't think of the multitude of situations where racism plays out, especially subtle ones where it's harder to pinpoint the racist attitudes in play.
 
So should central and south America as well when the Spaniards took the rest of those countries and wiped out many of the indigenous Indians over time.


Before I jump into this, I want to say that I was living in rural south Texas (Carrizo Springs) in the 70s/80s as a child. I remember one illegal coming through our property from the ranch bordering our south fence line. I remember the haggard expression on his face (it was summertime, getting late in the morning) when I happened upon him. I went to my stepmom, who came out and first spoke in English, and then he said something. She started speaking in español. It turns out that he was hungry, thirsty, and was looking for Cotulla, which was directly to the east on the other side of I-35, where a lot of illegals were picked up for work or moving north in those days. The man was white, blue-eyed, mostly dirty-blond-colored hair, most of his front teeth missing... I never forgot that look on his face, wondering how he got into that situation.

Mexican is a nationality.
Hispanic is an ethnicity.
Indian is a race.

It becomes important to understand these dinstinctions.

I was about to say something to the effect here. Prior to your post, kokonut, there has been NO statement about its 500-year history of bloodshed and oppression here.

This is how I see it. The Europeans/Spaniards invaded the Americas and took the lands from the Indians. I believe one reason we do not have the migration from our country to another like México does is because we allow all to have the opportunities at life (though there are inherent inequities, such as politics and money that allow one to start at a higher position as a child than another person would). The Europeans/Spaniards do not for the most part. They have tried to "purify" México into a New World extension of the Spanish world of Europe by making life so difficult for the Indians still alive today such that the Indians become our problem by way of migration out of the country.

Have you noticed on spanish television stations like Univisíon the race of the people and the roles they play on TV as well as how they are positioned in society? You'll see most if not all of the white/white-looking mestizo actors and actresses in positions of power, responsibility, money, while most laborer, country/pastoral, poor character roles are often filled by Indians or dark-skinned mestizos. I don't think there are nearly as many exceptions to that rule as you would see in developed industrial nations like the US.

Perhaps the Indians are but a pawn in the greater game of cultural/religious conquest that is still being played out 500 years later. Maybe the illegal immigration is but a symptom of a much greater problem - oppression of the Indians. I predict that if the carteles are confident enough, they may attempt to instigate civil war against the European/Spaniard/white-looking politicians running México within 1-2 years. Until two weeks ago, I thought they might try within 2-4 years. Recent activity indicates they're stepping it up rapidly, and the government may not be able to counter it quickly enough to keep from losing the country. They're stealing houses in some of the border towns! There has been no word that police forces have gone back inside and reclaimed the houses for the homeowners...

There will be revolution, and the Mexican Revolution that started in 1910 between fighting factions of EUROPEANS will be nothing compared to the upcoming Mexican Revolution, especially when the Indians feel payback is long overdue, and one of theirs is a BILLIONAIRE on the Forbe's List - Joaquin Guzman Loera;

---------------------
Guzmán, one of four brothers, was born in a Sinaloa mountain hamlet known as La Tuna, which sits in Badiraguato county, the birthplace of most of Mexico’s famous drug lords. The reason for Badiraguato’s notoriety is its location at the gateway to Mexico’s “golden triangle,” a remote, mountainous intersection of Sinaloa, Durango and Chihuahua states where opium and marijuana have been grown for generations.

Badiraguato, one of Mexico’s 200 poorest counties, offers its young few jobs other than the drug trade. As a child, El Chapo’s family was so poor that when he was a baby, his mother converted an old wooden crate used to pack tomatoes into a cradle for him, says a local official who has seen the photograph.

The mountain folk of Badiraguato are widely seen as macho, close-mouthed people of tight-knit clans, given to intense loyalty, bloody vendettas and honor killings. Many of the fathers and grandfathers of today’s capos are buried by the side of Badiraguato’s dusty roads or on hillsides with views of the crumbling adobe homes where they were born. They lie in grand marble mausoleums built like mock colonial cathedrals or Greek temples.

Many of the new generation of capos, including El Chapo’s son Édgar, are buried in spectacular graves in nearby Culiacan. Judging by photographs or paintings of the dead displayed on the tombs, Badiraguato’s native narcos often die young. “Better to live like a rey [king] for six years than as a guey [ox, or fool] for 60,” is a common saying here.
---------------------

Remember that quote... That could become the slogan of the coming Revolution. Him and several other drug lords have enough money between them to finance the bloodiest, most successful takeover of a country via revolution if they remain low-key in their money/strategic/weaponry acquisition plans. Once they've taken over México, will they stop there, or begin mounting attacks on other countries to the south? I don't think they'll hit the US next, because the US is the best place for making money as laborers and selling drugs, and they want that money to finance the Indian Revolution before having the whole of Indian America turning against the US in the final push via sheer numbers to cleanse the Americas of the white influence. You may not see the southward push for several years as they continue to operate under the table in other countries for a while longer. They already have been successful in Venezuela and Bolivia through elections rather than the gun (though Hugo Chávez tried in a 1992 military-civilian coup). There is Nicaragua to consider as well.

Mind you, I'm pretty white-looking, but I have to consider things that I see and read on a daily basis, online or around me right here in Texas. NOT looking forward to it, but what can you do?
 
There may be cultural differences between those who live in the north and the south, but when I visit my family in Brooklyn, they speak English. When I visit my family in Georgia, they speak English. When I visit my family in Arizona, they speak English. When I visit my family in Florida, they speak English.

They are all here legally. Now, as far as cultural differences, my family in Brooklyn speak with a very obvious "New York" accent. They eat more bagels than I do. Their religion - Catholic. Professions, attorneys, paralegal, barbers.

Georgia - same thing with accent. They are a bit less pale than my New York relatives. Religion - various protestant, wiccan, atheist ... no catholics. Professions - very various from comic book store manager to pizza delivery to talk show host to construction labor ..... etc.

Florida - not as pronounced of an accent - wear more sunscreen than my NY relatives. Religion - Protestant - strict adherence. Professions - retail.

Arizona - almost a "Yankee" accent mixed with a southern drawl. Religion - various including Navajo spirituality. They wear a lot of sunscreen and drink a lot of water. Professions - law enforcement, RN at VA and Veterinarians.

There is no discussion of "the old world" or any discussion in a foreign language. I do not have to interpret to my friends what my parents are saying, or what my grandparents are saying.

It might not be a different language. But what about all the other English-speaking countries in this world? Are we all the same culture and country as them cause we all speak English? Language is not the only indicator of cultural differences.

I can show you some pretty vehement forum discussions about uses of dialectal words like "y'all" vs. "you guys" and more frequent use of "sir/m'am" in the South than in the North. Same language, sometimes even very slightly different usage, lots of strong oppositional feelings. Even though we speak the same language and share a dictionary, that doesn't change the fact that two people from this same country can and often do feel worlds apart.
 
Mexican is a nationality.
Hispanic is an ethnicity.
Indian is a race.

Not making this distinction is precisely why the law risks leading to covert racism. With the exception of people who identify with any of these groups, most people don't think of "Mexican" and "Hispanic" as a nationality versus an ethnicity. Same thing happens with "Muslim" and "Arab" (religion versus ethnicity) because the average person is careless about national/ethnic/racial distinctions if it's not in regards to their own nationality/ethnicity/race.
 
I never understood the psychology behind calling someone a racist when they recognize a racist situation for what it is.

If I overheard a white person calling a black person the N word, and I called them out on it, would that make me a racist, and if so, why?
I'm not sure how that relates to my post. For one, I never called anyone a racist. I pointed out the dangers of making accusations of racism where there is no evidence. It has become more of a bludgeon than an attempt to actually deal with any actual racism.

I think what saywhatkid is trying to say here is that many people who have never experienced racism first-hand don't think of the multitude of situations where racism plays out, especially subtle ones where it's harder to pinpoint the racist attitudes in play.
From what I've seen, those who talk about covert racism and subtle racism haven't exactly been treading carefully in throwing around the accusation. Oppose illegal immigration? You're a covert racist. Oppose Obamacare? You're a covert racist. And don't even try to deny that you're a covert racist. Denial itself is a sign of covert racism.

Why should I believe that people dense enough to say such things are experts on what's subtle racism and what's not?
 
I'm not sure how that relates to my post. For one, I never called anyone a racist.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you will smugly paint anyone as a racist. I have come across the "you pointed out racism, you're racist" line of thinking though, so that sentiment isn't completely out of the blue, even though I realize now it's not what you said.

I pointed out the dangers of making accusations of racism where there is no evidence. It has become more of a bludgeon than an attempt to actually deal with any actual racism.

Recognizing racism is part of dealing with it. How can anyone deal with anything if they can't even recognize it when it happens? If anything I'd say not recognizing it makes it impossible to deal with.

From what I've seen, those who talk about covert racism and subtle racism haven't exactly been treading carefully in throwing around the accusation.

That's because it happens all the time. And why do people feel so attacked when their racism is called on? Usually because they're guilty of it. Otherwise they would just recognize it, catch themselves in the future, and work on their prejudices through self-education and awareness.

Why should I believe that people dense enough to say such things are experts on what's subtle racism and what's not?

Why should I believe the multitude of rationalizations people come up with to cover up and deny any racist attitudes they might hold?
 
Recognizing racism is part of dealing with it. How can anyone deal with anything if they can't even recognize it when it happens? If anything I'd say not recognizing it makes it impossible to deal with.
I'm all for recognizing and dealing with racism when there's actual evidence. The problem is that a lot of people recognize racism when there is none to recognize. There should be evidence of actual racism before recognizing it. How can anyone deal with anything if they keep making accusations without evidence, conveniently against those on the other side of an issue?

That's because it happens all the time. And why do people feel so attacked when their racism is called on? Usually because they're guilty of it. Otherwise they would just recognize it, catch themselves in the future, and work on their prejudices through self-education and awareness.
Could it be that being called a racist is one of the worst things you can be called in this society? If someone feels attacked, it's because they are being attacked, right or wrong. You forgot the third option- if they have no racist motives to begin with, they would determine they are being attacked by a reckless racial demagogue.

Why should I believe the multitude of rationalizations people come up with to cover up and deny any racist attitudes they might hold?
Perhaps because you wouldn't be able to so easily dismiss valid points that you disagree with?
 
Not surprised that race is not an issue to you two. Not a whole lot of blue-eyed redheads coming in. See, you don't think race is an issue because you pretend there is nothing racist about giving the police discretionary power to stop people. Ain't it great to be a white male? :roll:

Isn't it nice to make racist comments against white people without reprisal ?
 
I'm all for recognizing and dealing with racism when there's actual evidence. The problem is that a lot of people recognize racism when there is none to recognize. There should be evidence of actual racism before recognizing it. How can anyone deal with anything if they keep making accusations without evidence, conveniently against those on the other side of an issue?

There is evidence. Ask any person of color how many times they get asked for ID or thought to be stealing or thought to be stupid or thought to be a criminal. Then ask any white person. Ask any traveler of color how many times they've been pulled aside for higher security checking and then ask a white traveler. Compare and contrast the rates.

Could it be that being called a racist is one of the worst things you can be called in this society? If someone feels attacked, it's because they are being attacked, right or wrong. You forgot the third option- if they have no racist motives to begin with, they would determine they are being attacked by a reckless racial demagogue.

We're all a little racist. Everyone is racist. So your actions are informed by the society you live in, wow, join the club. Everyone's in it. The only difference is some people admit it and try to work on it and other people just keep denying it, insisting that there's nothing to be worked on.
Perhaps because you wouldn't be able to so easily dismiss valid points that you disagree with?

A lot of the anti-illegal immigration points are perfectly valid and very real. Illegal immigrants do take up resources and don't pay taxes. It's the intensity and level of passion people feel about the issue that is amped up and fueled by the same subconscious racist attitudes we all harbor just by virtue of living in a society with a history of racism.

Racism is hardly ever the only factor these days, it's is more likely to be riding the wave along with another factor or set of factors. In this case, that wave is illegal immigration.
 
Racist!:giggle:


Kind of shoots that "Sons of Liberty" thing full of holes...Whose liberty was he talking about? Must be the white portion of the population.

I am also part Miami (Native American). I probably know more about the treaties between Native Americans and the U.S. Government than you ... but that is just a guess.
 
Sounds like standard campus parking situation. I work on a campus with horrendous parking, so this kind of situation could easily happen.

So far, it seems she did get a break because driving without a license could have been charged right then and there, with her car getting towed.


There is no such thing as "an undocumented citizen." If a person is "undocumented", then she is not a "citizen."


She was arrested for not having a valid driving license, period.

BTW, if she's been living in the States since she was a kid, why did she have a Mexican driver's license? She didn't bring that with her when she was seven years old.

I caught that too Reba and was waiting for others to catch it.

Apparently, it must be indoctrinated in Liberal Arts Universities that illegal means "citizen".

Even reporters are getting it wrong.
 
Before I jump into this, I want to say that I was living in rural south Texas (Carrizo Springs) in the 70s/80s as a child. I remember one illegal coming through our property from the ranch bordering our south fence line. I remember the haggard expression on his face (it was summertime, getting late in the morning) when I happened upon him. I went to my stepmom, who came out and first spoke in English, and then he said something. She started speaking in español. It turns out that he was hungry, thirsty, and was looking for Cotulla, which was directly to the east on the other side of I-35, where a lot of illegals were picked up for work or moving north in those days. The man was white, blue-eyed, mostly dirty-blond-colored hair, most of his front teeth missing... I never forgot that look on his face, wondering how he got into that situation.

Mexican is a nationality.
Hispanic is an ethnicity.
Indian is a race.

It becomes important to understand these dinstinctions.

I was about to say something to the effect here. Prior to your post, kokonut, there has been NO statement about its 500-year history of bloodshed and oppression here.

This is how I see it. The Europeans/Spaniards invaded the Americas and took the lands from the Indians. I believe one reason we do not have the migration from our country to another like México does is because we allow all to have the opportunities at life (though there are inherent inequities, such as politics and money that allow one to start at a higher position as a child than another person would). The Europeans/Spaniards do not for the most part. They have tried to "purify" México into a New World extension of the Spanish world of Europe by making life so difficult for the Indians still alive today such that the Indians become our problem by way of migration out of the country.

Have you noticed on spanish television stations like Univisíon the race of the people and the roles they play on TV as well as how they are positioned in society? You'll see most if not all of the white/white-looking mestizo actors and actresses in positions of power, responsibility, money, while most laborer, country/pastoral, poor character roles are often filled by Indians or dark-skinned mestizos. I don't think there are nearly as many exceptions to that rule as you would see in developed industrial nations like the US.

Perhaps the Indians are but a pawn in the greater game of cultural/religious conquest that is still being played out 500 years later. Maybe the illegal immigration is but a symptom of a much greater problem - oppression of the Indians. I predict that if the carteles are confident enough, they may attempt to instigate civil war against the European/Spaniard/white-looking politicians running México within 1-2 years. Until two weeks ago, I thought they might try within 2-4 years. Recent activity indicates they're stepping it up rapidly, and the government may not be able to counter it quickly enough to keep from losing the country. They're stealing houses in some of the border towns! There has been no word that police forces have gone back inside and reclaimed the houses for the homeowners...

There will be revolution, and the Mexican Revolution that started in 1910 between fighting factions of EUROPEANS will be nothing compared to the upcoming Mexican Revolution, especially when the Indians feel payback is long overdue, and one of theirs is a BILLIONAIRE on the Forbe's List - Joaquin Guzman Loera;

---------------------
Guzmán, one of four brothers, was born in a Sinaloa mountain hamlet known as La Tuna, which sits in Badiraguato county, the birthplace of most of Mexico’s famous drug lords. The reason for Badiraguato’s notoriety is its location at the gateway to Mexico’s “golden triangle,” a remote, mountainous intersection of Sinaloa, Durango and Chihuahua states where opium and marijuana have been grown for generations.

Badiraguato, one of Mexico’s 200 poorest counties, offers its young few jobs other than the drug trade. As a child, El Chapo’s family was so poor that when he was a baby, his mother converted an old wooden crate used to pack tomatoes into a cradle for him, says a local official who has seen the photograph.

The mountain folk of Badiraguato are widely seen as macho, close-mouthed people of tight-knit clans, given to intense loyalty, bloody vendettas and honor killings. Many of the fathers and grandfathers of today’s capos are buried by the side of Badiraguato’s dusty roads or on hillsides with views of the crumbling adobe homes where they were born. They lie in grand marble mausoleums built like mock colonial cathedrals or Greek temples.

Many of the new generation of capos, including El Chapo’s son Édgar, are buried in spectacular graves in nearby Culiacan. Judging by photographs or paintings of the dead displayed on the tombs, Badiraguato’s native narcos often die young. “Better to live like a rey [king] for six years than as a guey [ox, or fool] for 60,” is a common saying here.
---------------------

Remember that quote... That could become the slogan of the coming Revolution. Him and several other drug lords have enough money between them to finance the bloodiest, most successful takeover of a country via revolution if they remain low-key in their money/strategic/weaponry acquisition plans. Once they've taken over México, will they stop there, or begin mounting attacks on other countries to the south? I don't think they'll hit the US next, because the US is the best place for making money as laborers and selling drugs, and they want that money to finance the Indian Revolution before having the whole of Indian America turning against the US in the final push via sheer numbers to cleanse the Americas of the white influence. You may not see the southward push for several years as they continue to operate under the table in other countries for a while longer. They already have been successful in Venezuela and Bolivia through elections rather than the gun (though Hugo Chávez tried in a 1992 military-civilian coup). There is Nicaragua to consider as well.

Mind you, I'm pretty white-looking, but I have to consider things that I see and read on a daily basis, online or around me right here in Texas. NOT looking forward to it, but what can you do?

This was a very good post and thanks for contributing to this thread.

The ONLY comment I have is in regards to where I highlighted in red. There is a very distinct cultural difference between the U.S. Government and the majority of Native Americans.

You may remember a very old American expression .... "Indian Giver".

This expression is used when someone gives something to you, then later they want it back.

Native Americans did not have the concept of land ownership. If they do not have this concept, the white settlers did not steal anything.

I am not denying that Natives were given a raw deal.
 
Isn't it nice to make racist comments against white people without reprisal ?
If my comment was racist, use the little "!" button and report it. I would humbly accept a ban for racist comments. I note that no ban has been received. No worries about reprisals. Arizona police will not bother me, because I am Irish descent.
 
I am also part Miami (Native American). I probably know more about the treaties between Native Americans and the U.S. Government than you ... but that is just a guess.

Wow, got all your bases covered. No way you could be racist; you are 1/64 Native American!
 
That's simply not true. The law gives the police no more power to stop people than they already have. However, I can't blame you for misunderstanding. So many people, all the way up to the President, have blatantly lied about what this law does.
I will need to wait until I see this law in action before I know how effective it is at solving the problem. I certainly hope it does more than cause lawsuits.


When people say stuff like this, I hear the following: I have no idea how to debate your point, so rather than consider that you may have a point or think about a substantive response, I'm just going to smugly paint you as a racist.Not true. I made no accusations of racism. I simply stated the obvious; that white men in Arizona will have nothing to worry about. No need to carry immigration papers and all the IDs they require Hispanic-looking people to have. You will be allowed to walk right past any checkpoints.

I'd like to think we could get through the immigration debate without accusations of racism, but we couldn't even make it through the health care debate without that. Oh well. It's not as if racial divisiveness has never torn apart entire countries and led to mass slaughters...
Well, since the immigration problem has been mentioned as border crossing illegals, and Canada has not lost a bunch of it's citizens, that leaves Mexico. Again, most of Mexico is Hispanics. Not saying the policy itself is blatant racism. I am saying that there is a lot of gray area where police in the field of duty have a lot of discretionary leeway. Only a matter of time before the lawsuits start to pour in from citizens that are jailed falsely, etc. Looking forward to those discussions as well.
 
Wow, got all your bases covered. No way you could be racist; you are 1/64 Native American!

Tell that to my grandmother, she was full blood.

My my, you seem to know it all don't you? Full of assumptions the whole 9 yards.

Even when it comes to legal recourse to an illegal immigrant problem.

Perhaps a history lesson is in order?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX6KOvAeHGs&feature=related[/ame]
 
Well, since the immigration problem has been mentioned as border crossing illegals, and Canada has not lost a bunch of it's citizens, that leaves Mexico. Again, most of Mexico is Hispanics. Not saying the policy itself is blatant racism. I am saying that there is a lot of gray area where police in the field of duty have a lot of discretionary leeway. Only a matter of time before the lawsuits start to pour in from citizens that are jailed falsely, etc. Looking forward to those discussions as well.

Why not discuss the most current events, i.e. the illegal stopped at a University Campus without a drivers license and was deported after it was found she was here illegally.

Please, explain how that Campus Cop was racist ..... I patiently await your reply.
 
The ONLY comment I have is in regards to where I highlighted in red. There is a very distinct cultural difference between the U.S. Government and the majority of Native Americans.

You may remember a very old American expression .... "Indian Giver".

This expression is used when someone gives something to you, then later they want it back.

Native Americans did not have the concept of land ownership. If they do not have this concept, the white settlers did not steal anything.

I am not denying that Natives were given a raw deal.


Palm-face...

That's right. I forgot about that! That's why some would say that one is not really homeless, but merely doesn't have a building or a place to stay in. The earth is our home, all of it. We just have to get out there and build shelter if it's needed, and the whites took that away. Now, you have to work at a job that destroys your spirit to live someplace. You can't wander and land wherever you may. From time to time, I wonder WTF we have done. ¿Can we have the end of the Planet of the Apes movie speech in front of the fallen statue of Liberty on the beach, por favor?

Remember, Indians who are aware of the crimes made against them are a very angry people. Many do not have their own identity, having been forced to believe the beliefs, live the lives, and speak the language of their conquerors. Where is their native identity, the native voice they were robbed of? I want to go up to them at immigration rallies and ask them, "When you protest, why are you doing so in español? Learn your native languages so that it can be heard again, and use it during the protests. Force the people to hear you, to understand you. This isn't about the right to work here in the US; this is about the theft of your lives and identity as a people." It's much easier said than done, but this subsection of this movement is growing daily.

If anything, I'd say that the catholic faith in the western hemisphere would be the downfall of the Europeans, as it advocates "having all the children you want." They may have done that to dilute the economic power of a single adult or a couple, but boy, it sure generated a lot of lively young potential fighters for a future war. I don't think the Europeans saw this coming at all.
 
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